474 réponses à ce sujet

[silvrdark]

Brawne wrote...

jess05 wrote...

This did seem to be an attempt to calm things and make the retake movement seem the minority.
In the process, turning those who like the end(or those who took the letter at face value)  against those who don't, starting agruments started between us.

And its working.  Some simply can not see it for it was intended to do.
Best to ignore them, and not give them the pleasure.


And BTW .. Thanks OP. Interesting read.

This is exactly what I'm saying. The letter was genius work and is already working very well.

Regardless of your feelings on the real meanings or motives (my opinion falls somewhere in between the extremes), we need to focus on being vocal about what we want.  Civil, but vocal.  We need to keep talking about that, and as one other poster put it, be "pro-better ending".  Arguing in this thread about the Dr's motives does not help Retake, only those waiting to pounce on any comment that they can use to discredit us. 

Let's keep politely keep talking about our greivances with the ending, and keep offering feedback on what we think would make for better endings. Don't break ranks now - hold the line.

[Reptilian Rob]

Zu Long wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

To be clear, this is not paranoia, I give him the benefit of the doubt here. But as someone who is trained in the art of word I cannot read that statement without the negative spin.

I don't see where you gave him the benefit of the doubt anywhere in that analysis.

I could have said a lot more, but chose not to. 

I'm giving him a chance to fix it, as stated during the end. 

Awfully sporting of you, but what if he isn't sifting through every response this board puts up to his letter to the fans?

Then he isn't doing his job right. 

As a co-founder/CEO you main conern should be with product quality and public response to said product. If you are sitting on the sidelines having other people (PR) do your job for you, than somewhere along the line you lost touch. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Zu Long wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

To be clear, this is not paranoia, I give him the benefit of the doubt here. But as someone who is trained in the art of word I cannot read that statement without the negative spin.

I don't see where you gave him the benefit of the doubt anywhere in that analysis.

I could have said a lot more, but chose not to. 

I'm giving him a chance to fix it, as stated during the end. 

Awfully sporting of you, but what if he isn't sifting through every response this board puts up to his letter to the fans?

Clearly he's insulting by ommission, then. Just look at that tramp, Jessica.


[/this is a blatant example of parody based on actual people's responses to Jessica]

[Zhijn]

Oh man, this ending has seriously torn us apart from BioWare.

While there might something in his message, one at some point need to take a step back and realize its the doctor himself addressing us, and thats something in itself. I know - im no exception, i even link to the pr topic in my sig.

I just think its great we heard from him. And im really excited to hear what BW has to say in April.

Modifié par Zhijn, 22 mars 2012 - 04:26 .

[Vaktathi]

Interesting analysis, I got a very weird feeling of unspoken "how dare you/ohgodohgodohgod" in his statement. I wrote up a long response open letter post (see sig) calling them out on some of that stuff and trying to explain that they still didn't seem to get the gist of the problem wasn't needing "Clarification" or "more answers". 

Modifié par Vaktathi, 22 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[Velocithon]

I do believe that the team is doing something though.

And given the feedback they've gotten, if they don't incorporate any of that, they know the ****storm will just hit again.

[Zanallen]

"Science Fiction Literature graduate who is a freelancer storyboard concept writer. Graduated from UCSD (still attending! Go Trittons!)"

"Someone who tears apart speeches/arguments/statements for a living."

Wait, what?

What does being a storyboard concept writer have to do with tearing apart speeches? Are we at the part of the Hold the Line movement where we just make up stuff to support the argument? Your "analysis" seems to just be random tangents painting Bioware in a bad light in order to stir up more controversy.

[Reptilian Rob]

Zhijn wrote...

Oh man, this ending has seriously torn us apart from BioWare.

While there might something in his message, one at some point need to take a step back and realize its the doctor himself addressing us, and thats something in itself. I know - im no exception, i even link to the pr topic in my sig

I just think its great we heard from him. And im really excited to hear what BW has to say in April.

All I see this doing is uniting a fanbase under one collective banner and helping Bioware deliver on their promises. 

All of which are good things. 

[GBJ13]

I think people reading the statements need to realize that the statement is addressing multiple audiences. I've done some speech writing. While the statement is addressed to fans, it also is being read by a variety of people: 1) his bosses at EA, 2) the gaming media that supported the ending, 3) his employees at Bioware, 4) the majority of fans who dislike the endings, 5) the minority of nas who support the ending, 6) retailers who are trying to sell the game, and 7) lawyers who have to defend the product against any lawsuits.

If he came out and called the ending a failure, he would alienate many of the people reading his statement. If he didn't criticize the people who said horrible things about his employees, he wouldn't be a good boss. He is in a really difficult position. I'm not saying that the ending didn't warrant some of the attacks, but I think it's important to recognize that Bioware employees put a lot of their heart and soul into the game. As a leader, he has to acknowledge what they did.

Let's be critical of the statement for the right reasons, but also realize the difficult position he is in.

[Dean_the_Young]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Awfully sporting of you, but what if he isn't sifting through every response this board puts up to his letter to the fans?

Then he isn't doing his job right. 

As a co-founder/CEO you main conern should be with product quality and public response to said product. If you are sitting on the sidelines having other people (PR) do your job for you, than somewhere along the line you lost touch. 

Or, alternatively, you could have very little idea of what his job actually entails.

The presumption that a CEO's job should entail reading through thousands of forum posts an hour and individually reply to them suggests the later.

[rwilli80]

You can tear just about any statement apart anyway you want and take what you will from it. This time is no different, I think the biggest problem a lot of people have with this whole Take Back Mass Effect movement is that they are screaming for change, but change takes time. Bioware can't just change it and send it out, they have to rework it, add to it, do voice acting, do animation, edit it, redo it, edit it again, then test it, then certify it, and then hopefully put the product out for the masses.

I think being vocal about your feelings and disappointment in the game is a good thing, but I do believe there is a lot of you that are being unreasonable in your want for instant gratification.

[Jackal7713]

Great read Rob.

[Velocithon]

OT: Reptilian Rob, you always seem rather clam and collected on B.net. It's kind of funny to see you speak so adamantly about this.

[Reptilian Rob]

Zanallen wrote...

"Science Fiction Literature graduate who is a freelancer storyboard concept writer. Graduated from UCSD (still attending! Go Trittons!)"

"Someone who tears apart speeches/arguments/statements for a living."

Wait, what?

What does being a storyboard concept writer have to do with tearing apart speeches? Are we at the part of the Hold the Line movement where we just make up stuff to support the argument? Your "analysis" seems to just be random tangents painting Bioware in a bad light in order to stir up more controversy.

No, I write for a living which is not limited to fiction. I have written several comparitive peices which are published in the local stacks at UCSD, most of them dealing with peer review. In that line of writing you have to be willing to tear apart their paper to validate your own work. 

It's logistical of course, which is far from the realm of fiction. 

[humes spork]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

To be clear, this is not paranoia, I give him the benefit of the doubt here. But as someone who is trained in the art of word I cannot read that statement without the negative spin.

You're more charitable than I was or ever would be picking apart his message. I'm trained in politician and lawyer-speak and the first thing that jumped out at me like some kind of rabid animal ascended from the pits of hell itself was his separation of customers dissatisfied with the ending with those who thought the game was overall good (untrue), and emphasis on "destructive" criticism, in an attempt to compartmentalize and marginalize those complaining about the ending.

That's taking the statement in its entirety; anyhow.

Modifié par humes spork, 22 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[Psile_01]

At least the ending motivated me to register on bioware forums just so I can complain about it. I think the OP had a very fair analysis, and I think he is right that the statement comes from a place of fear. Also pain. The creators and investors of Mass Effect probably thought they had a ****in' ending, and this criticism is coming entirely out of left field for them. They probably don't want to change it because they had been working up to this point for five years, and now people are whining and what they want to say(but can't) is "tough balls. You write an epic 3 game trilogy and then I'll tell you that you suck, how's that?" They have a right to feel hurt and insulted, but as fans and consumers we have a right to demand.

We were told, and therefor we expect, that our decisions would drastically effect the final outcome of the game. They didn't, and I defy any bioware defender to argue otherwise(probably going to regret that, but there it is) The whole point of mass effect is that you craft the story. You make Shepard be who he is. Want to make him a terrifying badass who shoots first, asks questions later, and dooms a whole race to extinction because the other one is more useful to him? You can do that. Want to make a peace-brokering hero who finds the diplomatic solution to everything and unites a galaxy under his banner, losing a few allies in the process? You can do that to. The problem is that both of those Cmdr. Shepards suffer the same fate, as does the galaxy they molded. I want an ending that is epic, that requires sacrifice and tough moral choices, but reflects on the character that I have created. I'm not alone in this.

What Bioware and EA do not understand about gamers is that they speak with their wallets last. We will **** and moan but at the end of the day we will buy whatever DLC they throw at us in record numbers and thank them for the **** they are shoveling down our throats. I don't know why, but we will. I'm not going to bother trying to change this, but what makes me sad is that by the time all the bad decisions monetarily catches up to Bioware it will be too late. By the time fans stop buying their games there is nothing else to say. They left. That's it. So yes, angry forum posts don't equal less dollars in Bioware pockets, but they will in the long run. Next title that comes out, how enthusiastic will you be? Personally, I can say not much. I'll look at it skeptically, and if it looks like it will truly blow my socks off I will read some reviews on launch day, maybe pick it up a week or two later if I have the spare cash. I will not run around like a crazy person trying to scrounge up a N7 collectors edition from random Targets like I did ME3. I have been disappointed too much to let myself get that emotionally invested in a bioware game again. Unless you come out with satisfactory ending DLC, which should be free but i will probably buy anyway. If you do that, I'm back because it means you really do care. Until then, I watch bleakly as they release statement after meaningless statement that makes me angrier than their last meaningless statement. So when Bioware is wondering why there isn't more hype for their next franchise launch 3 years from now, they can look back at this and other mistakes and their responses to them.

[Reptilian Rob]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Awfully sporting of you, but what if he isn't sifting through every response this board puts up to his letter to the fans?

Then he isn't doing his job right. 

As a co-founder/CEO you main conern should be with product quality and public response to said product. If you are sitting on the sidelines having other people (PR) do your job for you, than somewhere along the line you lost touch. 

Or, alternatively, you could have very little idea of what his job actually entails.

The presumption that a CEO's job should entail reading through thousands of forum posts an hour and individually reply to them suggests the later.

When the outcry is this loud, it's hard to believe he wouldn't be using every source of information he had to correct this mistake. 

Although, things have proven me wrong before. 

[Zu Long]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Clearly he's insulting by ommission, then. Just look at that tramp, Jessica.


[/this is a blatant example of parody based on actual people's responses to Jessica]

Close, but the actual answer turned out to be "then he's bad at his job." Which makes about as much sense as your guess, so you get some points there.  

[Reptilian Rob]

humes spork wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

To be clear, this is not paranoia, I give him the benefit of the doubt here. But as someone who is trained in the art of word I cannot read that statement without the negative spin.

You're more charitable than I was or ever would be picking apart his message. I'm trained in politician and lawyer-speak and the first thing that jumped out at me like some kind of rabid animal ascended from the pits of hell itself was his separation of customers dissatisfied with the ending with those who thought the game was overall good (untrue), and emphasis on "destructive" criticism, in an attempt to compartmentalize and marginalize those complaining about the ending.

Exactly, I could have said more but at this point it's just hate speak.

I pointed out the basics and left it at that. 

[bobbydarko]

I think theres a little too much reading into his words. In fact, his words dont even really matter.

He responded, and his response wasn't "No, we have no plans to change anything" Which it easily could have been.

The fact that he responded speaks louder than anything he actually said. He (and thus they) are listening.

[Reptilian Rob]

bobbydarko wrote...

I think theres a little too much reading into his words. In fact, his words dont even really matter.

He responded, and his response wasn't "No, we have no plans to change anything" Which it easily could have been.

The fact that he responded speaks louder than anything he actually said. He (and thus they) are listening.

It's hard to actually gain anything from what he is saying though, he is a master at saying something yet implying nothing. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

When the outcry is this loud, it's hard to believe he wouldn't be using every source of information he had to correct this mistake. 

You are not a source. You are one of hundreds, if not thousands, of consumers, posting on a forum in which the topics are being pushed back pages by the minute.

A CEO runs a company full time.


While your ego is healthy, your self-importance is less than your actual importance or relevance on this forum. The closest you'll get is that he has employees who have employees who, down the chain, might put one of your ideas (the ones not repeated by X-teen dozen other people earlier) on a memo that might go up to his subordinates.

Although, things have proven me wrong before. 

I'm sure it amazes everyone around you.

[Twistedfaith]

If Bioware had kept their promises this wouldn't have happened.

Modifié par Twistedfaith, 22 mars 2012 - 04:34 .

[N-Seven]

Brawne wrote...

This letter was filled with hidden and with not so hidden stabs at fans who want them to fix this mess. Frankly I found it insulting. Instead of admitting they screwed up they are trying to shift the blame around and hide behind the reviews they paid for.

If that's what you want to take from it.  I don't know why you would want to.  I guess if it helps you identify a villain in this weird drama.  Some people desire that clarity.  Can't have the cause of our woes be a sympathetic figure right?  It's easer just to swing him over to the dark side.  Easier for us to deal with.

I took a quick skim of it and thought ok...expressing some pride in product...backing his employees...expressing some regret...slightly defensive...bit of optimism...not really much information here though.  Pretty much expected, not good, not bad, just a standard PR thing.  No surprises here.  Move along.  Didn't find it especially insulting.  I didn't take much away from it at all.   Actually my impression was that I thought his response wasn't 'meticulously crafted', I thought it was a little rushed.  He probably shouldn't have mentioned the reviews.

By the way, fantastic game, I'd give it 8.8/10.  Unpaid review right there.

[Paparob]

Twistedfaith wrote...

If Bioware had kept their promises this wouldn't have happened.