474 réponses à ce sujet

[8666737]

This pr statement was pretty easy to break down.

They have no idea why people are upset so they reverse and say it's the fault of the customers for not understanding their "art"

Bioware you gave your customers a pile of dog **** and are telling us it's chocolate ice cream

[Arokel]

*looks at title*

You must be a lawyer.

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Midget wrote...

Of course he wasn't geniune. If he was than he wouldn't had needed to add in many defensive comments in to try and defend his view if he had any intention of actually changing the ending. As I said, Bioware believes their ending is a work of art. They feel that it's perfect as is and are simply stumped why their fans couldn't "get" it in their eyes.

With people determined to pick apart anything anyone from Bioware says in the most paranoid way possible, why wouldn't he need to have defensive language?

Honesty has never stopped Bioware 'fans' from attacking before.

[GoblinSapper]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

GoblinSapper wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
*SNIP*

You know I can't help but wonder if Bioware anticipated that their fanbase was made up of the equivilant of the Political A-Team. atghunter the former PR Damage Control Rep, Reptilian Rob the Speech Analyst...

"Pack the car, we're leaving in five! LOAD UP GENTLEMEN!"

Also, I read all your text in Garrus' voice...

[Militarized]

Arokel wrote...

*looks at title*

You must be a lawyer.

What's wrong with lawyers  

[CRISIS1717]

lol analysis, we can see it's pr spin that is defensive and flawed.

[Blackmind1]

J717 wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

This community is beginning to get embarrassing, now. No offence, OP, but you come off as a poor man's version of the other PR guy, which you likely are. I didn't listen to the other guy, and I'm definitely not going to listen to you.

I've heard enough from the creator's themselves to make my own decision. Spreading negativity through poorly de-constructed blog posts will help nobody.

Until I see you put up a valid argument I'll have to pass on your judgement. 

Sorry, but I'm taking the word of Dr. Muzyka. He's given me many years of great entertainment, and told us they are fixing this game. You're just a guy trying to get people to notice him by drumming up controversy.

What controversy? 

All the OP did was take a publicly available statement by Ray and dissect it. Anyone can do that....if you think that's "controversy," you're being completely ignorant.

Also, for someone that seems so defensive about the ending and carefree about the game, what exactly are you doing trolling threads that you don't agree with? That is the ultimate sign of someone just "drumming up attention." You're not fooling anyone.

I'll tell you what; let's pick apart your statement then, shall we?

1) "Dissect it"
No, he took the choice parts he read as being negative and spun them that way. I read no negativity in the post when it was first released. All I read was the musings of a guy that has been put in a very awkward position of addressing his fans, staving off negative media and morally supporting his team all at once. My verdict: Paranoia.

2) "Ignorant"
Shall we go and look up ignorant in a dictionary?

 Adjective:Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated. 

Now, I don't like the fact that you're accusing me of being ignorant toward the true meaning of controversy. I will entertain you anyway, though, as "Anyone can do that".  First of all, he is drumming up unneeded controversy, whether you like it or not. The OP knows the post is fresh off the press, and that tensions are running high. At this point it is incredibly easy to shove some generic "dissection" up on the board, claim Bioware hates you, and watch as the warm, real life fuzzies start rolling in, as everybody praises you for being so "intellectual". That is exactly what this post is doing. I'm sure that if there were a major problem with this, atghunter would have said something about all of this by now, as he has undoubtedly seen it already. Even so, I don't really believe atghunter, either. Muzyka is a very friendly person in real life, and he has a genuine passion for videogames, that much I know from meeting him at events. Anyway, I've sidetracked here. My point is, I'm stupid, nor ignorant to controversy. I write for a living. I'm more than used to the subject.

3) "for someone that seems so defensive "... "what exactly are you doing trolling threads that you don't agree with".

Defensive: Oh boy, now it gets fun! First, I will tackle "defensive". Not once did I defend the game in my original statement. I defended Ray's statement, as I feel this was a pointless thread, intended only to drum up more hate in a situation where more isn't needed. Ray addressed our concerns directly, told us we're definitely getting some kind of change, and backed the game that his friends have worked hard on. He's not going to sit and bash it because some child on a forum didn't agree with the last ten minutes. His friends worked very hard to get this to us, and by bringing up all of those scores, he's positively reinforcing them. You can't stop and expect the world to fall to its knees as soon as you form a differing opinion to somebody.

Trolling: There's that word again, I don't think anybody in here knows what it means. To "troll" is to intentionally rile somebody up for the purposes of their own amusement. It does not mean "Oh hey, he's in here with us, not agreeing with our opinion! This must mean that he's intentionally trying to anger us in some way!" This is not the case. If I was going to legitamately troll you, then I wouldn't respond with a boring, single paragraph, denouncement of a silly blog interpretation. Furthermore, using your meaning of the word, you're trolling Bioware by sitting in their forums and disagreeing with their product. "Oh look, we've been told a million times that we made a bad ending decision, but here comes the tool brigade, again, to remind us! I'm sure they're going to starting holding that line of theirs again, soon!" 

The world "troll" in these situations always tickles my funny bone. Its meaning is now, essnetially, "We've formed a circlejerk in here, and if you come and break us out of it buy bringing up rational thought, then you're obviously trolling us!" No, we're not. We're trying to drag you back down to reality, because all of your heads are stuck so far up the damn clouds that people can take pictures of you from their plane window. Never have I seen this much ignorance of how the real world works. People wanting **** for free, bitcing about interactive entertanment. I could understand if you're water had been shut off, or you cable was cut, but not a videogame. Also, don't give me the bull**** example of "But we paid for it and we demand it be what we were promised!" This one is infuriating. Any real adult would simply send it back, get a refund, and move on with their life. As it stands, this forums is just brimming with autosts who feel lost without their pretend partners and the fact that they didn't get a satisfactory ending to a piece of optional entertainment.

4) Last but not least: "You're not fooling anyone."

I don't even need to go into this one. This is the most basic placeholder response ever. It almost makes me laugh. 

I'm here all night, dissecting statements. Admittedly, this wasn't a real dissection, though. Moreso an explanation of some of the points you brought up, in the context of my original intentions. I could always dissect Dr Muzyka's post myself, but my dissection wouldn't be negative, so nobody would read it. Everybody love's a good controversy!

All of the past two weeks, the board has been rife with complete and utter paranoid schizophrenics. I'm suprised some of you aren't wearing tinfoil hats. Only a paranoid schizophrenic can read this much into an innocent blog post and come out with a personal attack on the entirety of the community.

The worst part is that he confirmed he was giving you what you want. It's incredibly rude to sit their villainising somebody who who has practically caved to the demands of his rabid, whining, butthurt fanbase. One so bad that they simply can't grasp the concept of returning a product they aren't satisfied with. They are left in shock and awe that a company filled with humans can be capable of human errors, especially errors in judegement, as is the case with the ending.

Are we done here?

Modifié par Blackmind1, 22 mars 2012 - 04:54 .

[NitrAce]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

There are plenty of CEOs out there who actually adapt and listen to those thousands of people everyday, no matter how long it takes, and they are much larger than Bioware. I site Amazon as a prime example, who's CEO is always looking for better solutions based on customer feedback and email.

Do you know who reads the email?

Not the person with the six-figure salary.


The people who read through the forums are the community managers like Jessica, Chris, or Stanley. Their job is to interface with the community. They and people like them synthesize points the occur across the forum, not engage in debates with people. They send those synthesized points up to the next level, where at meetings they compare their finds with eachother and other sources. Then THAT produces a list which goes to the next meeting, and the next-

Top-Level managers are just that: managers. Their job is managing the work of other people. The higher up you go, the further removed from the lowest common denominators (users like you or I) they get.

And the sarcasm is something else I could deconstruct, but it's pointless to argue with someone with vastly different opinions than your own. We will have to agree to disagree. 

Can we agree that you're exhibiting a laughable lack of understanding about how corporations actually work?

Your argument makes so much sense. It's clear. Since the six figure salary guy won't be reading any of the community's grievances let's just not post them and let the exploitation continue. My mind is full of **** from the logic. Because having your voice heard is only important as long as the manager and the guy on the golden seat hears it. The underlings better not read my ****. 

[ericjdev]

I was fine with the statement, I think it shows they are concerned and paying attention. They want happy customers like any business. Was a lot of it corporate-speak? Of course, that's how execs talk, that's not surprising, anything else would be. I think it's good.

[Dean_the_Young]

NitrAce wrote...

Your argument makes so much sense. It's clear. Since the six figure salary guy won't be reading any of the community's grievances let's just not post them and let the exploitation continue. My mind is full of **** from the logic. Because having your voice heard is only important as long as the manager and the guy on the golden seat hears it. The underlings better not read my ****. 

Fortunately your counter-argument is so far removed from anything in my own post that it's amazingly amusing.

[clos]

OP, those were exactly my thoughts. I'll believe Ray when he says these words: "We f-ed up and we are going to fix it. Sorry to our fans, we made a mistake and we will earn your trust again. Watch and see."

None of these "we listen to you but you are wrong" type of statement. None of these "artistic integrity" and "you guys don't get it, we are really good, see our paid game reviewers at metacritic, ignore the actual consumers of the product."

Hold the line people, don't fall for this shrivel.

[razen34]

Great breakdown, hopefully they will soon see they are just shooting themselves in the foot, attacking your "loyal fan base" is not a productive marketing strategy.

[Vaktathi]

EDIT: removed by request. 

Modifié par Vaktathi, 22 mars 2012 - 05:48 .

[NitrAce]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

NitrAce wrote...

Your argument makes so much sense. It's clear. Since the six figure salary guy won't be reading any of the community's grievances let's just not post them and let the exploitation continue. My mind is full of **** from the logic. Because having your voice heard is only important as long as the manager and the guy on the golden seat hears it. The underlings better not read my ****. 

Fortunately your counter-argument is so far removed from anything in my own post that it's amazingly amusing.

I aim to please.

[GB-Kakuzu]

Thanks for this. I did sense fear in the way the whole thing was worded.

[Brawne]

GoblinSapper wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
*SNIP*

You know I can't help but wonder if Bioware anticipated that their fanbase was made up of the equivilant of the Political A-Team. atghunter the former PR Damage Control Rep, Reptilian Rob the Speech Analyst...

Not all people are herd of mindless sheep going baaaaahhhh to everything politicans or corporate bigwigs are saying. Some people have learned how to read between the lines, either because their profession or place and political situation where they live.

[Vhalkyrie]

The last part is the most telling to me. Where asks us to tell people it was good overall. The message is not subtle there. He's worried about sales tanking.

[Rockpopple]

What a sad, paranoid bunch. The ones posting and opening this thread who are sad and paranoid.

God, just let it go.

[FS3D]

My response to the letter is here, if anyone is interested...

http://social.biowar...index/10395811/

[Reptilian Rob]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

The last part is the most telling to me. Where asks us to tell people it was good overall. The message is not subtle there. He's worried about sales tanking.

As said before, it's clear he is scared and it shows. 

[Tyrzun]

Erik Kain from Forbes who is an EXPERT if anyone is an expert on corporate smoke screens which all this is, breaks it down for you.

I'll post the end that sums it up easily, but you can read the rest.

"As far as Muzyka’s apology goes: It’s better than nothing, but any apology with a “but” at the end should be taken with a hefty spoonful of sea salt. After all, when has “I’m sorry, honey, but…” ever worked?"

http://www.forbes.co...ending-sort-of/

"’m not sure what to make of BioWare co-founder Dr. Ray Muzyka’s apology to Mass Effect fans for the mass disappointment surrounding the finale of the third game.

The angry fan response was “painful” to hear, Muzyka writes.

“Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.”


Accepting criticism and feedback with humility is a good start. Let’s continue:


"Mass Effect 3 concludes a trilogy with so much player control and ownership of the story that it was hard for us to predict the range of emotions players would feel when they finished playing through it. The journey you undertake in Mass Effect provokes an intense range of highly personal emotions in the player; even so, the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us. This is an issue we care about deeply, and we will respond to it in a fair and timely way. We’re already working hard to do that.

To that end, since the game launched, the team has been poring over everything they can find about reactions to the game – industry press, forums, Facebook, and Twitter, just to name a few. The Mass Effect team, like other teams across the BioWare Label within EA, consists of passionate people who work hard for the love of creating experiences that excite and delight our fans. I’m honored to work with them because they have the courage and strength to respond to constructive feedback.

Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue."


Lots of padding in here praising the BioWare team for their courage to accept criticism, which is odd since that’s simply par for the proverbial course when it comes to art. If video games are indeed art than it doesn’t take courage to accept or respond to criticism. It’s simply what one does. Moreover, Muzyka praises the team’s courage to accept constructive feedback. (Thoughts on this in a moment.)

Looking at the content rather than the style, it certainly appears that a new ending may be in the works.

That being said, promising ‘clarity’ is not the same thing as promising a new batch of options and endings for players. The phrasing is as inscrutable as one would expect from a PR maneuver like this. (Whether the ending of the game was in fact just an elaborate set-up for a really great twist remains theoretical. And as Paul Tassi points out, may also underscore how the quest for profits is killing video games.)

Moving on, Muzyka acknowledges that the fan reaction is important but quickly deflects, holding up Metacritic in BioWare’s defense. “However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s.”

Unfortunately, the common thread I’ve heard from angry fans has been that the entire review process is badly broken; that conflict of interest exists at nearly every big gaming publication due to the relationship between game developers and the magazines and websites that review their games.

Have advertising dollars led to a form of journalistic capture at the big gaming reviewers? I have no way of knowing, of course, but this is the impression many gamers have. Pointing to the disparity between user response and reviewer response only serves only to reinforce and accentuate this belief.

The whole thing falls apart at the end, however. Muzyka writes:

Some of the criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion by our most ardent fans, even if founded on valid principles, such as seeking more clarity to questions or looking for more closure, for example – has unfortunately become destructive rather than constructive. We listen and will respond to constructive criticism, but much as we will not tolerate individual attacks on our team members, we will not support or respond to destructive commentary.

Oh, to be sure, there is such thing as destructive commentary. True ad hominem does exist in the wild. But the notion that artists ought only respond to constructive criticism is delirious. If games are truly art, and the teams who develop them truly artists, why should they be treated with kid’s gloves?

“There is no need to take a “constructive” attitude with talented artists,” writes Stephen Bond, “if anything, they find such an attitude more offensive. As H.L. Mencken said: “I do not object to being denounced, but I can’t abide being schoolmastered, especially by men I regard as imbeciles.” The constructive critic is a crow who takes it upon himself to educate the eagle; one who tries to force his own limitations on those who can soar far higher, unencumbered.”

Constructive criticism, Bond argues, is a “mass hallucination.” It is “inimical to the purposes of criticism as art. I’ll say it again: the point of criticism is not to improve you, but to express me. And each time I digress to offer you helpful suggestions, encouraging remarks and other pep-talk, I am not truly expressing myself. I’m merely being polite, nice, even a bit condescending — in other words, I’m being aesthetically repulsive.”

Imagine, for a moment, if the only criticism BioWare had received was of the constructive variety. Imagine it was all polite platitudes, condescending clutter, and helpful suggestions about how to improve the game. Do you think for a moment that we’d be reading a blog post like the one Muzyka just penned?

Not likely. Of course, criticism of art can be as bad as criticism of critics. Plenty of dumb things have been said about Mass Effect 3 and, as is always the case with the internet, many of those dumb things can be found in places like Metacritic user reviews.

But the plethora of positive professional reviews are less helpful by far than much of the ‘destructive’ commentary BioWare faces. Truth rarely lies in what we want to hear. Dozens of fawning reviewers tripping over one another to offer up their perfect scores hardly encourages BioWare to improve their product. “Look how exceptional our game is! We appreciate your concern and we are listening, but by the way did you notice all these perfect scores we just received? You’re delusional, but we care.”

(P.S. As a commenter notes, it’s also quite possible that many reviewers didn’t finish the game or didn’t realize how similar all the endings were by the time reviews hit the digital printer.)

Don’t get me wrong. A professional reviewer may indeed have expertise and a valuable opinion. Taste matters, but it’s important to have standards. Quality isn’t cozily embedded in the realm of democratic consensus. “Different strokes for different folks,” only gets us so far before we devolve into a sea of mediocrity. But at the same time, if your art is only good enough for the reviewers and nobody else wants to buy it, that’s a problem.

As far as Muzyka’s apology goes: It’s better than nothing, but any apology with a “but” at the end should be taken with a hefty spoonful of sea salt. After all, when has “I’m sorry, honey, but…” ever worked?"

Modifié par Tyrzun, 22 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[piemanz]

razen34 wrote...

Great breakdown, hopefully they will soon see they are just shooting themselves in the foot, attacking your "loyal fan base" is not a productive marketing strategy.

Ahh yes, the loyal fanbase who've taken part in review bombing, insulting the dev's, and the threatened to boycott all Bioware products. Amongst other things.

We have dismissed that claim.

[FS3D]

Rockpopple wrote...

What a sad, paranoid bunch. The ones posting and opening this thread who are sad and paranoid.

God, just let it go.

Yes...  Thank you for your opinion.

Now, where was I?

[N-Seven]

Blackmind1 wrote...

J717 wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

This community is beginning to get embarrassing, now. No offence, OP, but you come off as a poor man's version of the other PR guy, which you likely are. I didn't listen to the other guy, and I'm definitely not going to listen to you.

I've heard enough from the creator's themselves to make my own decision. Spreading negativity through poorly de-constructed blog posts will help nobody.

Until I see you put up a valid argument I'll have to pass on your judgement. 

Sorry, but I'm taking the word of Dr. Muzyka. He's given me many years of great entertainment, and told us they are fixing this game. You're just a guy trying to get people to notice him by drumming up controversy.

What controversy? 

All the OP did was take a publicly available statement by Ray and dissect it. Anyone can do that....if you think that's "controversy," you're being completely ignorant.

Also, for someone that seems so defensive about the ending and carefree about the game, what exactly are you doing trolling threads that you don't agree with? That is the ultimate sign of someone just "drumming up attention." You're not fooling anyone.

I'll tell you what; let's pick apart your statement then, shall we?

1) "Dissect it"
No, he took the choice parts he read as being negative and spun them that way. I read no negativity in the post when it was first released. All I read was the musings of a guy that has been put in a very awkward position of addressing his fans, staving off negative media and morally supporting his team all at once. My verdict: Paranoia.

2) "Ignorant"
Shall we go and look up ignorant in a dictionary?

 Adjective:

Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated. 

Now, I don't like the fact that you're accusing me of being ignorant toward the true meaning of controversy. I will entertain you anyway, though, as "Anyone can do that".  First of all, he is drumming up unneeded controversy, whether you like it or not. The OP knows the post is fresh off the press, and that tensions are running high. At this point it is incredibly easy to shove some generic "dissection" up on the board, claim Bioware hates you, and watch as the warm, real life fuzzies start rolling in, as everybody praises you for being so "intellectual". That is exactly what this post is doing. I'm sure that if there were a major problem with this, atghunter would have said something about all of this by now, as he has undoubtedly seen it already. Even so, I don't really believe atghunter, either. Muzyka is a very friendly person in real life, and he has a genuine passion for videogames, that much I know from meeting him at events. Anyway, I've sidetracked here. My point is, I'm stupid, nor ignorant to controversy. I write for a living. I'm more than used to the subject.

3) "for someone that seems so defensive "... "what exactly are you doing trolling threads that you don't agree with".

Defensive: Oh boy, now it gets fun! First, I will tackle "defensive". Not once did I defend the game in my original statement. I defended Ray's statement, as I feel this was a pointless thread, intended only to drum up more hate in a situation where more isn't needed. Ray addressed our concerns directly, told us we're definitely getting some kind of change, and backed the game that his friends have worked hard on. He's not going to sit and bash it because some child on a forum didn't agree with the last ten minutes. His friends worked very hard to get this to us, and by bringing up all of those scores, he's positively reinforcing them. You can't stop and expect the world to fall to its knees as soon as you form a differing opinion to somebody.

Trolling: There's that word again, I don't think anybody in here knows what it means. To "troll" is to intentionally rile somebody up for the purposes of their own amusement. It does not mean "Oh hey, he's in here with us, not agreeing with our opinion! This must mean that he's intentionally trying to anger us in some way!" This is not the case. If I was going to legitamately troll you, then I wouldn't respond with a boring, single paragraph, denouncement of a silly blog interpretation. Furthermore, using your meaning of the word, you're trolling Bioware by sitting in their forums and disagreeing with their product. "Oh look, we've been told a million times that we made a bad ending decision, but here comes the tool brigade, again, to remind us! I'm sure they're going to starting holding that line of theirs again, soon!" 

The world "troll" in these situations always tickles my funny bone. Its meaning is now, essnetially, "We've formed a circlejerk in here, and if you come and break us out of it buy bringing up rational thought, then you're obviously trolling us!" No, we're not. We're trying to drag you back down to reality, because all of your heads are stuck so far up the damn clouds that people can take pictures of you from their plane window. Never have I seen this much ignorance of how the real world works. People wanting **** for free, bitcing about interactive entertanment. I could understand if you're water had been shut off, or you cable was cut, but not a videogame. Also, don't give me the bull**** example of "But we paid for it and we demand it be what we were promised!" This one is infuriating. Any real adult would simply send it back, get a refund, and move on with their life. As it stands, this forums is just brimming with autosts who feel lost without their pretend partners and the fact that they didn't get a satisfactory ending to a piece of optional entertainment.

4) Last but not least: "You're not fooling anyone."

I don't even need to go into this one. This is the most basic placeholder response ever. It almost makes me laugh. 

I'm here all night, dissecting statements. Admittedly, this wasn't a real dissection, though. Moreso an explanation of some of the points you brought up, in the context of my original intentions. I could always dissect Dr Muzyka's post myself, but my dissection wouldn't be negative, so nobody would read it. Everybody love's a good controversy!

All of the past two weeks, the board has been rife with complete and utter paranoid schizophrenics. I'm suprised some of you aren't wearing tinfoil hats. Only a paranoid schizophrenic can read this much into an innocent blog post and come out with a personal attack on the entirety of the community.

The worst part is that he confirmed he was giving you what you want. It's incredibly rude to sit their villainising somebody who who has practically caved to the demands of his rabid, whining, butthurt fanbase. One so bad that they simply can't grasp the concept of returning a product they aren't satisfied with. They are left in shock and awe that a company filled with humans can be capable of human errors, especially errors in judegement, as is the case with the ending.

Are we done here?

I'm gonna give you a slow clap.  And it's not sarcastic clapping.

Modifié par N-Seven, 22 mars 2012 - 04:56 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Is it telling that Forbes said the exact same thing I did, pretty much letter for letter?

Maybe I'm on to something here?