92 réponses à ce sujet

[DCko]

Sabbatine wrote...

DCko wrote...

How am I doing it wrong? Have you even tried a max damage melee salarian infil before you even say max melee damage is useless?

The general concensus is that full fitness is useless on Golds, at least for Salarian Infils. I can even surivive Gold with a low lvl infiltrator without ANYTHING in fitness. I can revive fallen teammates around enemies without full fitness and survive a whole gold match without getting downed without full fitness. If anything why would you need full fitness when you are reviving your teammates when you have cloak? You aren't getting shot at anyway and when not cloaked, you shouldn't be getting shot at anyway. The extra tank shields is trivial and I'd rather invest that into something that gives me more options for close combat means.

You having an opinion does not equate to some form of general consensus... at best you could say that one out of one DCko's agree, fitness is worthless on gold.  Or 100% of DCko's believe that fitness is useless on gold.

Unfortunately that also means 100% of DCko's are (at least partially) wrong.  Shields are very useful on gold for absorbing hits from the most common enemies you will encounter and allows you to play far more efficiently.

DCko wrote...

After a heavy melee attack, I gain 30% power damage allowing me to fully drain shields of phantoms/geth pyros/hunters, WITHOUT power amplifier mod, for 20 seconds. I can go stock without any enhancements on Gold.

I'm pretty sure you mean:  "After killing an enemy with a heavy melee attack".  There's a pretty big difference between those two conditions.

DCko wrote...

Again, you don't have to snipe everything. If there is one lone phantom coming at me or flanking my team from behind, It gives me two options. Cloak > drain > quick scope or Cloak > Drain > Heavy melee. Your build does not allow that second offensive option does it? You can't even heavy melee a rushing phantom or fully heavy melee weak opponents can you?

 
Attempting to heavy melee a phantom is needlessly risky.  I've found several quick melee attacks to be far more effective because it keeps her staggered for much longer thus preventing her locking you into an instant kill animation.  Heavy meleeing from stealth is no better because on gold she can see you coming.  Maybe they are less prone to kill you in the PS3 version, I couldn't say.

Yes yes, I've heard it plenty of times. It's too risky. But not for me. Out of the past 100 gold matches, ever since I respeced for more melee damage, I've never gotten insta-killed when heavy meleeing a phantom. The only downside to this is if you have lag issues. Then I suggest not heavy meleeing at all. Again, I agree, sniping it is much faster. But when you are on xbox or ps3, it's good to have at least two ways to dispatch a phantom. Just in case you miss your snipe and have to wait 3-4 seconds to try again to snipe it.

But honestly, give it a try. I've played an SI with full shield fitness/no prox. I've played a 3 fitness and 5 prox mine SI. Now, I'm playing a melee build that comes handy when the situation arises. All 3 types work.

Modifié par DCko, 26 mars 2012 - 05:19 .

[Aerius]

Slottm wrote...

I don't particularly understand the hate for prox mine. It does 925 or 950ish damage rank 5, (more with bonus power, or while cloaked) makes the target take 20% more damage, and you can fire it at a target. yes, something nimble or capable of dodging it can in fact dodge out of the way, but fire it at the dome of a geth prime, follow it with some headshots and watch it melt. Prox mine does a LOT of damage, and I have the feeling that people don't understand that you can fire it onto a target. It also doesn't have a "quantity" like grenades, they're infinite.

I can answer you on a personal impression level:
A proximity mine is a skill that takes cooldown. That means, if I do a proximity mine, I cannot cloak -> ed -> shoot.
Using Mantis X, Widow or Black Widow (or similar rifles), I do a tremendous amount of damage doing so, oneshotting most enemies (list were posted several times) and doing a huge ton of damage to the rest. In 95 of 100 cases I will prefer doing so instead of using the mine.
Which leaves me between the choice to put points in there (typically either 5 or 6) or to max out fitness. I just prefer fitness.

Modifié par Aerius, 26 mars 2012 - 05:02 .

[Rasputin17]

Slottm wrote...

I don't particularly understand the hate for prox mine. It does 925 or 950ish damage rank 5, (more with bonus power, or while cloaked) makes the target take 20% more damage, and you can fire it at a target. yes, something nimble or capable of dodging it can in fact dodge out of the way, but fire it at the dome of a geth prime, follow it with some headshots and watch it melt. Prox mine does a LOT of damage, and I have the feeling that people don't understand that you can fire it onto a target. It also doesn't have a "quantity" like grenades, they're infinite.

What are you talking about? They most deff have a "quantity"

[Slottm]

Aerius, you can cloak, prox mine, shoot. You're effectively replacing ED for prox mine for targets that have already been depleted of shields or armored targets. Lets say you drain the shield off an atlas, your ED is doing far less damage at this point than a proximity mine would do.

To rasputin, are you sure? I'm fairly certain that proximity mines are not considered grenades, and your quantity is infinite. Otherwise, there'd be a "quantity+1 or +2" power somewhere in the tree like grenades have. I'm not home, therefore unable to log in and check.

edit: prox mine also works extremely well against banshees, brutes, and setting up a choke point, primes, pyros etc.

Modifié par Slottm, 26 mars 2012 - 05:20 .

[Aerius]

Slottm wrote...

Aerius, you can cloak, prox mine, shoot. You're effectively replacing ED for prox mine for targets that have already been depleted of shields or armored targets. Lets say you drain the shield off an atlas, your ED is doing far less damage at this point than a proximity mine would do.
 

On gold where shields block 100% of incomming damage if it's more than the remaining shields?
Didn't test it, doubt it though. Also, Energy Drain gives me shields. That's good.

Edit: Ah, nvm, I misread. Forget that post. x)
Yes. Although in that case I prefer to ED some other target. Again: More Shields.

Modifié par Aerius, 26 mars 2012 - 05:23 .

[ttchip]

Rasputin17 wrote...
What are you talking about? They most deff have a "quantity"

Proxy Mines are not a grenade based power.

[Slottm]

Aerius - correct, I wouldn't use it against a target that has shields left. You end up using ED more, especially if your shields are drained. That being said, against "elite" targets, ones with armor mainly that require quite a bit of firepower, proximity mine does a lot of damage, and also opens the target up to receiving more damage from every source. I'm not advocating its use against things like geth rocket troopers, centurions or engineers or anything, but use it against an unarmored atlas, and watch it melt.

I will concede to the fact that it's a situational skill, however in those situations it performs better than any alternative. It's also AoE, and will hit several targets when fired into a pack. Again, its best use is against armored and targets already depleted of their shield.

(also very good against that armored reaper target that shoots rockets and spawns the little critters, forget the exact name)

Modifié par Slottm, 26 mars 2012 - 05:25 .

[DrekorSilverfang]

Standard gold SI is

6/0/6/6/6

Cloak: Damage, Recharge, Damage
Energy Drain: Damage, Drain, Damage(Armor boost is acceptable substitute)
STG: Weapon damage, Headshot, Weight(weapon damage acceptable but not ideal)
Fitness: durability, shield recharge, fitness expert

Any major deviation from this build results in less performance in every case I've seen.

[Aerius]

Slottm wrote...

Aerius - correct, I wouldn't use it against a target that has shields left. You end up using ED more, especially if your shields are drained. That being said, against "elite" targets, ones with armor mainly that require quite a bit of firepower, proximity mine does a lot of damage, and also opens the target up to receiving more damage from every source. I'm not advocating its use against things like geth rocket troopers, centurions or engineers or anything, but use it against an unarmored atlas, and watch it melt.

I will concede to the fact that it's a situational skill, however in those situations it performs better than any alternative. It's also AoE, and will hit several targets when fired into a pack. Again, its best use is against armored and targets already depleted of their shield.

(also very good against that armored reaper target that shoots rockets and spawns the little critters, forget the exact name)

You wrote while I edited: I misread your post before.
Yes.

[Rasputin17]

I have played an Infiltraitor more then any other MP class. The second rank is increased capacity for Proxy Mine. I can't believe so many of you think they are infinite.

[Rasputin17]

I would also like to add I use ED almost every minute while you can throw one Proxy Mine and miss and then not use them for the rest of the Wave. I believe ED is one of the best skills in MP while Proxy is an average skill at best.




and like I said before if your dealing with Reapers use another class.

Modifié par Rasputin17, 26 mars 2012 - 05:42 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

-snip-
double post

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 27 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[Aerius]

Rasputin17 wrote...

I have played an Infiltraitor more then any other MP class. The second rank is increased capacity for Proxy Mine. I can't believe so many of you think they are infinite.

The second rank in Proximity mine is "Recharge Speed", which lowers the cooldown of the skill by 25%.
Whatever you're speaking of, it's not Proximity Mine and it's not the Salarian Infiltrator.

Modifié par Aerius, 26 mars 2012 - 05:58 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

rasputin has never used proximity mine and doesnt know what hes talking about "

proximity mine is more akin to a rocket launcher.
you can spam it just as much as energy drain.
if you already have a mine set, it just detonates the old one.

as for aiming the mine, it fires to your reticle in cover, but mind the travel time.
out of cover, it lands about 16x16 pixels down and left of your reticle.

it staggers, can boost dps for a short period of time, deals more damage than ED, can be used as a warning alarm for flanks, and can 1hko troopers with a power damage module.

judge for yourself beyond that.
but I just dont see fitness as worth proximity mine.

[Slottm]

Sticky grenades, which humans and quarian both have, are quantity based grenades. Proximity mines are not quantity based at all, sorry Rasputin, but you're informed incorrectly in this situation. Salarians do not get access to sticky grenades, they get proximity mines, which are a completely different skill. Also, only using ED every minute? I use 8-9 in that time...

[Brownfinger]

Sweet validation.
Yeah, I don't bother with the proximity mine, either. The points are better served elsewhere.

[Rasputin17]

I am idiot Proxy Mine is different then Sticky Grenade. I still truly believe ED is a better choice. If you really wanted Proxy I would just not max ED and put the last 6 points into Proxy as a weapon to deal with crowds.

[Sabbatine]

DCko wrote...

Yes yes, I've heard it plenty of times. It's too risky. But not for me. Out of the past 100 gold matches, ever since I respeced for more melee damage, I've never gotten insta-killed when heavy meleeing a phantom. The only downside to this is if you have lag issues. Then I suggest not heavy meleeing at all. Again, I agree, sniping it is much faster. But when you are on xbox or ps3, it's good to have at least two ways to dispatch a phantom. Just in case you miss your snipe and have to wait 3-4 seconds to try again to snipe it.

But honestly, give it a try. I've played an SI with full shield fitness/no prox. I've played a 3 fitness and 5 prox mine SI. Now, I'm playing a melee build that comes handy when the situation arises. All 3 types work.

I don't have trouble with lag, but on the PC version, being stealthed and in melee range of a phantom is pretty much the same as being unstealthed and in melee range of a phantom on the gold difficulty which is why the risk is so high.

I don't doubt that melee damage is a nice luxury to have in certain situations but I've found that bonus shields allow for more flexibility when trying to manuever and and set up kills, and gives me a precious few seconds of life if I am ever caught flat footed.  Ultimately I don't recommend fitness because it will make you more durable against brutes, phantoms, atlas mechs, geth primes, and banshees, but because it gives you additional time to deal with the real threats on gold... cannibals, assault troops, marauders, centurians, geth troopers, and ravagers.

[silentlaze]

Slottm wrote...

Aerius - correct, I wouldn't use it against a target that has shields left. You end up using ED more, especially if your shields are drained. That being said, against "elite" targets, ones with armor mainly that require quite a bit of firepower, proximity mine does a lot of damage, and also opens the target up to receiving more damage from every source. I'm not advocating its use against things like geth rocket troopers, centurions or engineers or anything, but use it against an unarmored atlas, and watch it melt.

I will concede to the fact that it's a situational skill, however in those situations it performs better than any alternative. It's also AoE, and will hit several targets when fired into a pack. Again, its best use is against armored and targets already depleted of their shield.

(also very good against that armored reaper target that shoots rockets and spawns the little critters, forget the exact name)

I agree with this. I roll with 6/6/6/6/0. In my playstyle I use both abilities to boost my sniping damage. ED for the shielded targets so I can usually oneshot them and PM for those elite targets that rely on armour. While I admit that I use PM less than ED, it's still very useful. Especially when everyone is shooting the target you just shot your PM at. (When they are down to armor they die faster than you can say "die")

[WhySoeSerius]

I spec my infiltrator to kill gold atlas's, can finally 4 shot them... widow x
but i just got the black widow so... iunno

[Hiero Glyph]

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Standard gold SI is

6/0/6/6/6

Cloak: Damage, Recharge, Damage
Energy Drain: Damage, Drain, Damage(Armor boost is acceptable substitute)
STG: Weapon damage, Headshot, Weight(weapon damage acceptable but not ideal)
Fitness: durability, shield recharge, fitness expert

Any major deviation from this build results in less performance in every case I've seen.

I pretty much agree with this.  The Proxy Mine is mostly pointless as you should spend your cooldown finishing off the target(s)  (Black Widow) or reloading (Widow) and immediately cloaking again, not spending more time out of cloak.  Likewise the Tactical Cloak also affects your Energy Drain so the bonus +90% damage is huge and can seriously boost your own shields even without Drain.

It should be noted that you can fire up to 2 shots before your Cloak breaks with the Black Widow and can even manage an Energy Drain right at the start as well.  Another trick is that when you break your Cloak with Energy Drain you get the Energy Drain Cooldown, not the Cloak one.  Use this at your disgression and always exit cloak with Energy Drain when possible if the cooldown is shorter.

Lastly, the damage versus weight at rank 6 for STG is tricky without having the raw data.  You normally do not want your Cloak to cooldown slower than your reload and having it cooldown faster doesn't benefit you too much either unless it cancels the second half of your reload animation.  I haven't tested all of the data on Silver or Gold either but in some cases the additional damage could potentially allow for a OHKO instead of requiring a second shot.  To be fair, this decision depends entirely upon the difficulty and stats of the enemies along with the weapon and mod levels that you currently have.  There is no way to claim that one choice is superior to the other without using raw data to support such a decision.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 27 mars 2012 - 02:43 .

[Currylaksa]

Cloak duration buff at rank 4 is arguably superior in Gold. That's because it gives you extra stealth time to capture objectives or revive.

Bonus Power rank 6 is also preferable, because in Gold even the last shield/barrier bar will reduce/remove damage on actual health.

[Hiero Glyph]

Currylaksa wrote...

Cloak duration buff at rank 4 is arguably superior in Gold. That's because it gives you extra stealth time to capture objectives or revive.

Sadly the Infiltrator is one of the best single target DDs in multiplayer.  As a result, completing an objective and using your cloak defensively is not an improvement as a whole.  Sure, the build can work this way and I have used it to 'infiltrate' enemy defenses but it loses out on much of its damage potential by doing so as ~10-1 seconds are spent avoiding combat instead of dealing damage.

Bonus Power rank 6 is also preferable, because in Gold even the last shield/barrier bar will reduce/remove damage on actual health.

As with my previous comment you are literally forced to use Bonus Power at rank 6 because you are often spending a lot more time cloaked and this is one of the few ways in which you can still support your team while cloaked.  While you still get the +50% damage bonus while cloaked and when breaking it this also handicaps your damage potential with the stronger weapons, such as the (Black) Widow.

I did spend all of the demo and much of the retail game toying with such a build but once you get access to some of the higher damage sniper rifles using duration (rank 4) and bonus power (rank 6) cripple the Salarian Infiltrator's potential.  Also, the number of instances where having ~4 seconds longer cloak actually makes a difference are few and far between.  Combined with the fact that you can also use Energy Drain and fire a shot (or two! with the Black Widow)  before breaking cloak and you literally have a bonus power built-in already; taking it at rank 6 seems like a waste in almost every case.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 27 mars 2012 - 02:42 .

[MartialArtsSurfer]

Here's some numbers:

Light Melee Damage: 150-200 (depends on race)

Heavy melee Damage (but there's a charge up time delay): about 600
With the +30% Cloak Melee Damage Bonus, Heavy Melee Damage: 780,
under Cloaks +50%-90% bonus, the total bonus becomes +80%-120% of 600 = 1080 to 1320 damager for a Cloaked Heavy Melee

Widow Damage: 867 to 1083
Widow Extended Barrel Damage V= 1083 -1354
Cloaked Widow Damage = about 1,500-3,000 per shot!

from the Cloak Damage Bonus of +50% to +90% or +130%
if you take Sniper damage bonus,
damage will be almost 3,000! per shot if you have the +130% bonus
or a mininum of 1,500-1900 per shot if only a +50-90% bonus & Widow 1

Shooting a Phantom is better than Meleeing it.

Cloak Damage Bonus applies to skills/powers like Energy Drain/Proximity Mine, melee as well as damage
A sufficiently upgraded Proximity mine can do 1,000+ damage, or 1,500-1,800+ damage under Cloak
Energy DRain works well too
Geth Pyros have about 2,200 shields & 2,200 armor
Geth Hunters have about 1,800

Keep in mind that on Gold, there is no bleed through damage so shields/barriers will negate any bleed through damage greater than the shield when the shield is destroyed

Modifié par MartialArtsSurfer, 27 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[silentlaze]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Standard gold SI is

6/0/6/6/6

Cloak: Damage, Recharge, Damage
Energy Drain: Damage, Drain, Damage(Armor boost is acceptable substitute)
STG: Weapon damage, Headshot, Weight(weapon damage acceptable but not ideal)
Fitness: durability, shield recharge, fitness expert

Any major deviation from this build results in less performance in every case I've seen.

I pretty much agree with this.  The Proxy Mine is mostly pointless as you should spend you should spend your cooldown finishing off the target(s)  (Black Widow) or reloading (Widow) and immediately cloaking again, not spending more time out of cloak.  Likewise the Tactical Cloak also affects your Energy Drain so the bonus +90% damage is huge and can seriously boost your own shields even without Drain.

It should be noted that you can fire up to 2 shots before your Cloak breaks with the Black Widow and can even manage an Energy Drain right at the start as well.  Another trick is that when you break your Cloak with Energy Drain you get the Energy Drain Cooldown, not the Cloak one.  Use this at your disgression and always exit cloak with Energy Drain when possible if the cooldown is shorter.

Lastly, the damage versus weight at rank 6 for STG is tricky without having the raw data.  You normally do not want your Cloak to cooldown slower than your reload and having it cooldown faster doesn't benefit you too much either unless it cancels the second half of your reload animation.  I haven't tested all of the data on Silver or Gold either but in some cases the additional damage could potentially allow for a OHKO instead of requiring a second shot.  To be fair, this decision depends entirely upon the difficulty and stats of the enemies along with the weapon and mod levels that you currently have.  There is no way to claim that one choice is superior to the other without using raw data to support such a decision.

I disagree with the first part. For me there isn't a noticable difference in the cooldown if I use cloak first then shoot a PM. It's always seems like the 3 second thing when you come out of cloak if you shoot right away. And a PM damage bonus + the 2 shots from Black Widow coming out of cloak equals more damage. Also by the time I'm done shooting, my cooldown is down so it works out fine.