92 réponses à ce sujet

[Hiero Glyph]

silentlaze wrote...

I disagree with the first part. For me there isn't a noticable difference in the cooldown if I use cloak first then shoot a PM. It's always seems like the 3 second thing when you come out of cloak if you shoot right away. And a PM damage bonus + the 2 shots from Black Widow coming out of cloak equals more damage. Also by the time I'm done shooting, my cooldown is down so it works out fine.

If Proxy was instant then I would agree with your point, but as it is not the combo with a high-power Sniper Rifle is often lackluster at best.  Please note that Energy Drain is instant on cast and can be combo immediately with any target in your scope.  Sure, the potential +20% to all damage from Proxy is huge but again it often misses or arrives far too late to even matter.  In practice Proxy simply does not deliver a reliable combo with a sniper rifle.  It works far better for the Turian Soldier however.

For the record, removing an entire shield in one Energy Drain is far more necessary than anything that Proxy can offer.  Even against Banshees the amount of Barrier removed makes a huge difference in your damage potential, especially with the Black Widow.  Again, you can only use a single ability when uncloaking and then can fire up to 2 shots with the Black Widow before breaking your Cloak.  In almost every case Energy Drain combos far better than Proxy.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 27 mars 2012 - 02:57 .

[headcr4b]

DCko wrote...

Sabbatine wrote...

DCko wrote...

How am I doing it wrong? Have you even tried a max damage melee salarian infil before you even say max melee damage is useless?

The general concensus is that full fitness is useless on Golds, at least for Salarian Infils. I can even surivive Gold with a low lvl infiltrator without ANYTHING in fitness. I can revive fallen teammates around enemies without full fitness and survive a whole gold match without getting downed without full fitness. If anything why would you need full fitness when you are reviving your teammates when you have cloak? You aren't getting shot at anyway and when not cloaked, you shouldn't be getting shot at anyway. The extra tank shields is trivial and I'd rather invest that into something that gives me more options for close combat means.

You having an opinion does not equate to some form of general consensus... at best you could say that one out of one DCko's agree, fitness is worthless on gold.  Or 100% of DCko's believe that fitness is useless on gold.

Unfortunately that also means 100% of DCko's are (at least partially) wrong.  Shields are very useful on gold for absorbing hits from the most common enemies you will encounter and allows you to play far more efficiently.

DCko wrote...

After a heavy melee attack, I gain 30% power damage allowing me to fully drain shields of phantoms/geth pyros/hunters, WITHOUT power amplifier mod, for 20 seconds. I can go stock without any enhancements on Gold.

I'm pretty sure you mean:  "After killing an enemy with a heavy melee attack".  There's a pretty big difference between those two conditions.

DCko wrote...

Again, you don't have to snipe everything. If there is one lone phantom coming at me or flanking my team from behind, It gives me two options. Cloak > drain > quick scope or Cloak > Drain > Heavy melee. Your build does not allow that second offensive option does it? You can't even heavy melee a rushing phantom or fully heavy melee weak opponents can you?

 
Attempting to heavy melee a phantom is needlessly risky.  I've found several quick melee attacks to be far more effective because it keeps her staggered for much longer thus preventing her locking you into an instant kill animation.  Heavy meleeing from stealth is no better because on gold she can see you coming.  Maybe they are less prone to kill you in the PS3 version, I couldn't say.

Yes yes, I've heard it plenty of times. It's too risky. But not for me. Out of the past 100 gold matches, ever since I respeced for more melee damage, I've never gotten insta-killed when heavy meleeing a phantom. The only downside to this is if you have lag issues. Then I suggest not heavy meleeing at all. Again, I agree, sniping it is much faster. But when you are on xbox or ps3, it's good to have at least two ways to dispatch a phantom. Just in case you miss your snipe and have to wait 3-4 seconds to try again to snipe it.

But honestly, give it a try. I've played an SI with full shield fitness/no prox. I've played a 3 fitness and 5 prox mine SI. Now, I'm playing a melee build that comes handy when the situation arises. All 3 types work.

Look. You have to consider the definition of a "great" build that can really be considered one of the "best". What makes a good build is not how well it performs under SITUATIONAL events. I have no doubt that what you claim is probably correct. Spec-ing to melee with SI probably works.... sometimes. But as I said, a good build needs to be flexible, have broader utility, and be accessible to other players. Other players with different playstyles. If you have a very particular playstyle (which is effective) but can really only be pulled off by you, then its not really a "great" build. It could be effective but not "great".

And from all the Gold games I played, most people DON'T PLAY with your playstyle. On Gold, melee'ing enemies is high risk with high reward. Enemies with high DPS but low HP will fall fast, removing their threat quickly. However, when your gamble fails, you end up dying in the midst of all the enemies with a much lower chance of revival than if you were away. And that hurts the team either way, whether they try to revive you (and possible get teamwiped in the process) or leave you to die (and finish the round with 25% less capability).

I strongly believe personally in the shotgun infiltrator builds out there and honestly, thats where I see this melee idea working. But if your game lies in fighting at long to medium range, you should really reinforce those strong points of your game instead of trying to patch up the the short range part of your game with what is a relatively weak solution (melee).

If you play sniper SI, leave short range to other classes that handle it better. Use your mic, work together, and learn to build (if you don't have it already) great situational awareness. Those are the keys to winning on Gold really anyway, not the "best build", so yeah.

Play to your strengths. Every class has its weakness and no matter how tempting, its not always YOUR responsiblity to "cover it up". Thats why you have a team. You're not a lone wolf. 

Modifié par headcr4b, 27 mars 2012 - 03:00 .

[silentlaze]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

silentlaze wrote...

I disagree with the first part. For me there isn't a noticable difference in the cooldown if I use cloak first then shoot a PM. It's always seems like the 3 second thing when you come out of cloak if you shoot right away. And a PM damage bonus + the 2 shots from Black Widow coming out of cloak equals more damage. Also by the time I'm done shooting, my cooldown is down so it works out fine.

If Proxy was instant then I would agree with your point, but as it is not the combo with a high-power Sniper Rifle is often lackluster at best.  Please note that Energy Drain is instant on cast and can be combo immediately with any target in your scope.  Sure, the potential +20% to all damage from Proxy is huge but again it often misses or arrives far too late to even matter.  In practive Proxy simply does not deliver a reliable combo with a sniper rifle.  It works far better for the Turian Soldier however.

For the record, removing an entire shield in one Energy Drain is far more necessary than anything that Proxy can offer.  Even against Banshees the amount of Barrier removed makes a huge difference in your damage potential, especially with the Black Widow.  Again, you can only use a single ability when uncloaking and then can fire up to 2 shots with the Black Widow.  In almost every case Energy Drain combos far better than Proxy.

I agree that it isn't instant and I use ED more. But in a previous post I said I only use it for elite targets since they are usually pretty slow and rely on armour which PM helps more.
Just added this but I'm not saying ED is better than PM. Im saying that both have their uses against different enemies.

Modifié par silentlaze, 27 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[Hiero Glyph]

silentlaze wrote...

I agree that it isn't instant and I use ED more. But in a previous post I said I only use it for elite targets since they are usually pretty slow and rely on armour which PM helps more.
Just added this but I'm not saying ED is better than PM. Im saying that both have their uses against different enemies.

Regarding elite enemies, only the Brute and Ravager are without shields or barriers however.  In all other cases the elite enemies have some form of shield or barrier to remove.  This is why I stated that in almost all cases the cooldown from Proxy mine is a waste, not to mention that even investing into it pulls points away from other, more important skills.  I think that we can easily agree that Reapers are by far the worst matchup for the Salarian Infiltrator.  I'd rather play smarter against these two elite enemies than to leave myself weaker against the remaining elites.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 27 mars 2012 - 03:20 .

[silentlaze]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

silentlaze wrote...

I agree that it isn't instant and I use ED more. But in a previous post I said I only use it for elite targets since they are usually pretty slow and rely on armour which PM helps more.
Just added this but I'm not saying ED is better than PM. Im saying that both have their uses against different enemies.

Regarding elite enemies, only the Brute and Ravager are without shields or barriers however.  In all other cases the elite enemies have some form of shield or barrier to remove.  This is why I stated that in almost all cases the cooldown from Proxy mine is a waste, not to mention that even investing into it pulls points away from other, more important skills.  I think that we can easily agree that Reapers are by far the worst matchup for the Salarian Infiltrator.  I'd rather play smarter against these two elite enemies than to leave myself weaker against the remaining elites.

My bad, I misunderstood u there about the barrier/shield thing. But the PM is still useful. If used with cloak first then the CD is just as long the CD of ED so your damage output still increases. I agree that the reapers are the hardest. But my Salarian does fairly well against all 3 enemies, even the reapers. The enemy I struggle against the most is the Banshee but I'm sure u and most other people do too. (Playing as an Infiltrator) Also I never put any points into Fitness. Since I hardly ever get hit why bother? The only times  I ever get hit are times when that extra health/shields won't matter much. (Ex. surrounded by phantoms.) My motto is if you are getting hit as an Infiltrator then you are doing it wrong.(Yes this applies to me too.)
Forgot to mention this but the added bonus is that your friends benefit from the PM's bonus damage too.

Modifié par silentlaze, 27 mars 2012 - 03:41 .

[SpectreVerner]

DCko, stop taking all advice as an attack on you.

[Currylaksa]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

Sadly the Infiltrator is one of the best single target DDs in multiplayer.  As a result, completing an objective and using your cloak defensively is not an improvement as a whole.  Sure, the build can work this way and I have used it to 'infiltrate' enemy defenses but it loses out on much of its damage potential by doing so as ~10-1 seconds are spent avoiding combat instead of dealing damage.

As with my previous comment you are literally forced to use Bonus Power at rank 6 because you are often spending a lot more time cloaked and this is one of the few ways in which you can still support your team while cloaked.  While you still get the +50% damage bonus while cloaked and when breaking it this also handicaps your damage potential with the stronger weapons, such as the (Black) Widow.

I did spend all of the demo and much of the retail game toying with such a build but once you get access to some of the higher damage sniper rifles using duration (rank 4) and bonus power (rank 6) cripple the Salarian Infiltrator's potential.  Also, the number of instances where having ~4 seconds longer cloak actually makes a difference are few and far between.  Combined with the fact that you can also use Energy Drain and fire a shot (or two! with the Black Widow)  before breaking cloak and you literally have a bonus power built-in already; taking it at rank 6 seems like a waste in almost every case.

That's the big problem, all people think about is DPS. There is already enough DPS to go around in Gold.

While biotic explosions are still un-nerfed AOE widows, the best thing I should do is let teammates DPS in their preferred safe spots while I solo cap objectives, or res downed teammates. The extra seconds are very good safety nets. This build is all about giving teammates tons of room for error so they can spam those biotic explosions.

Also it is more comfortable to drain->drain->shoot from cloak to guarantee the last bar of shield does not completely DR your shot.

[Hiero Glyph]

Currylaksa wrote...

That's the big problem, all people think about is DPS. There is already enough DPS to go around in Gold.

While biotic explosions are still un-nerfed AOE widows, the best thing I should do is let teammates DPS in their preferred safe spots while I solo cap objectives, or res downed teammates. The extra seconds are very good safety nets. This build is all about giving teammates tons of room for error so they can spam those biotic explosions.

Also it is more comfortable to drain->drain->shoot from cloak to guarantee the last bar of shield does not completely DR your shot.

To each their own.  Just like the Vanguard, however, I consider any teammate running of on their own in an unsecured area a liability regardless of how long their cloak can last.  Besides, having ~4 additional seconds of cloak only makes them capable of completing the objective safely, not getting away from it.  Keep in mind that the other objectives all benefit more from additional DPS as well as you either have to eliminate targets or protect an area by killing enemies efficiently.  The number of times where those ~4 seconds actually matter are too far and few between, nor does it mean that having a lower duration makes completing such a task impossible either.  Again, to each their own but the general consensus exists for a reason.

[glevi]

Hi all,

Is it possible to completely stip the shield of phantoms and pyro's on Gold in a single ED hit?

[peddroelm]

You don't have to completely drain the enemy's shield // barrier ...

With Widow X and rank 6 of the tactical cloak (the extra 40% extra sniper damage for cloaked shots (which applies to base weapon damage - unlike the rest of the 50%+40% cloak damage bonuses )) LVL 3 disruptor ammo (30% ? base weapon damage) can remove 1083.8 * 1.4 * 0.3 = 455.19600 shield//barrier HP per cloaked infitrator shot using Widow X - before the actual weapon damage hits. If there are no shield//barrier HP left the weapon damage will apply to armor//health ..

Modifié par peddroelmz, 28 mars 2012 - 03:47 .

[Warchild-RZ]

peddroelmz wrote...

You don't have to completely drain the enemy's shield // barrier ...

With Widow X and rank 6 of the tactical cloak (the extra 40% extra sniper damage for cloaked shots (which applies to base weapon damage - unlike the rest of the 50%+40% cloak damage bonuses )) LVL 3 disruptor ammo (30% ? base weapon damage) can remove 1083.8 * 1.4 * 0.3 = 455.19600 shield//barrier HP per cloacked infitrator shot using Widow X - before the actual weapon damage hits. If there are no shield//barrier HP left the weapon damage will apply to armor//health ..

   Interesting, never would have guessed.  Thanks.

[demonss]

I don't know why so many people don't look at the proxy mine..

My salarian equips the raptor sniper rifle with extended clip and the armor piercing mod.

My prox mine is spec'd to six with the +damage from all sources at level 4 or 5 (I can't remember).

When I play I am with my sniper rifle, hit invisibility, and then immediately after cloaking toss my proximity mine right at the target I'm planning to shoot at. As soon as I hit prox mine I start opening fire with my rifle.
Generally the prox mine will nail my target giving me increased damage from my sniper rifle, and ontop of that due to the speed of the raptor I get 2-3 shots off while cloaked..
This combination of stuff just decimates most enemies taking out armored targets relatively quick. It really makes a joke out of everything the reapers can throw at you except the banshees (which are only tough because they love teleporting around).

It works wonders with ravagers as if you nail a ravager with the proximity mine, chances are you'll kill all their little crawlers too.

I love proximity mines!

[peddroelm]

peddroelmz wrote...

You don't have to completely drain the enemy's shield // barrier ...

With Widow X and rank 6 of the tactical cloak (the extra 40% extra sniper damage for cloaked shots (which applies to base weapon damage - unlike the rest of the 50%+40% cloak damage bonuses )) LVL 3 disruptor ammo (30% ? base weapon damage) can remove 1083.8 * 1.4 * 0.3 = 455.19600 shield//barrier HP per cloaked infitrator shot using Widow X - before the actual weapon damage hits. If there are no shield//barrier HP left the weapon damage will apply to armor//health ..

Apparently disruptor ammo only goes up to 15% vs shields in MP (down from 60% in SP  BOOOO!!!) so the maximum shield removed per cloaked widow X shot goes down to  1083.8 * 1.4 * 0.15 = 227.59800  which is almost meaningless ..considering the amounts of shield HP enemies get on gold..   

[Hiero Glyph]

demonss wrote...

I don't know why so many people don't look at the proxy mine..

My salarian equips the raptor sniper rifle with extended clip and the armor piercing mod.

My prox mine is spec'd to six with the +damage from all sources at level 4 or 5 (I can't remember).

When I play I am with my sniper rifle, hit invisibility, and then immediately after cloaking toss my proximity mine right at the target I'm planning to shoot at. As soon as I hit prox mine I start opening fire with my rifle.
Generally the prox mine will nail my target giving me increased damage from my sniper rifle, and ontop of that due to the speed of the raptor I get 2-3 shots off while cloaked..
This combination of stuff just decimates most enemies taking out armored targets relatively quick. It really makes a joke out of everything the reapers can throw at you except the banshees (which are only tough because they love teleporting around).

It works wonders with ravagers as if you nail a ravager with the proximity mine, chances are you'll kill all their little crawlers too.

I love proximity mines!

Unless you are standing next to your target the time required for the Proxy Mine to actually detonte next to your target will cause your Cloak to expire before you can actually fire any shots, thus voiding any bonus damage.  The only way to counter this is to use Bonus Power at rank 6 and you handicap your sniper rifle damage by 40% doing so.  This does not account for the Proxy Mine getting stuck on objects while being fired from cover or simply missing outright.  When all of these things are combined the reward of the 20% added damage is entirely offset by the lost damage and slower cooldown speed of Proxy Mine itself.  Again, the Proxy Mine is fine on a Turian Soldier but lackluster on a Salarian Infiltrator due to all of these factors.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 28 mars 2012 - 05:22 .

[glevi]

peddroelmz wrote...

You don't have to completely drain the enemy's shield // barrier ...

With Widow X and rank 6 of the tactical cloak (the extra 40% extra sniper damage for cloaked shots (which applies to base weapon damage - unlike the rest of the 50%+40% cloak damage bonuses )) LVL 3 disruptor ammo (30% ? base weapon damage) can remove 1083.8 * 1.4 * 0.3 = 455.19600 shield//barrier HP per cloaked infitrator shot using Widow X - before the actual weapon damage hits. If there are no shield//barrier HP left the weapon damage will apply to armor//health ..

Interesting. 
Is this theory or you have done it or have seen it done yourself?

[Agenda42]

I prefer having proxy mine 5 (damage, damage taken) over fitness 6 from the standard 6/0/6/6/6 build. I feel plenty safe without the extra durability, and the proxy mine is noticeably useful against heavy targets after their shields/barrier are down. I also find that shooting a proxy mine at one of the flanks of my sniping position before the start of a wave lets me know when enemies are coming.

I haven't yet tried going all the way to a 6/6/6/6/0 build, but it looks like I'll get a good chance with this promotions weekend event.

Modifié par Agenda42, 28 mars 2012 - 09:16 .

[iCeReal]

glevi wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

You don't have to completely drain the enemy's shield // barrier ...

With Widow X and rank 6 of the tactical cloak (the extra 40% extra sniper damage for cloaked shots (which applies to base weapon damage - unlike the rest of the 50%+40% cloak damage bonuses )) LVL 3 disruptor ammo (30% ? base weapon damage) can remove 1083.8 * 1.4 * 0.3 = 455.19600 shield//barrier HP per cloaked infitrator shot using Widow X - before the actual weapon damage hits. If there are no shield//barrier HP left the weapon damage will apply to armor//health ..

Interesting. 
Is this theory or you have done it or have seen it done yourself?

If the % on disrupter /warp kills the remaining shield / barrier then yes you can do it like that

[peddroelm]

glevi wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

You don't have to completely drain the enemy's shield // barrier ...

With Widow X and rank 6 of the tactical cloak (the extra 40% extra sniper damage for cloaked shots (which applies to base weapon damage - unlike the rest of the 50%+40% cloak damage bonuses )) LVL 3 disruptor ammo (30% ? base weapon damage) can remove 1083.8 * 1.4 * 0.3 = 455.19600 shield//barrier HP per cloaked infitrator shot using Widow X - before the actual weapon damage hits. If there are no shield//barrier HP left the weapon damage will apply to armor//health ..

Interesting. 
Is this theory or you have done it or have seen it done yourself?

I have done this in SP (insanity) numerous times but in SP  ammo percentages can go much higher (80% vs barrier warp ammo, and 60% vs shields& barrier for disruptor ) Also in SP inflitrators have a second skill that increases base weapon damage by an extra( 15%) ... (in SP you can 1HTO marauders with  ~half shields still up)

But on MP gold - AFAIK ammo powers can only go 15% ...(need to get the shield down to the last 2-3 bars ...)