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[likeorasgod]

This is my fourth play through. I have made him king once and had him Marry the queen twice. I so going to harden him all they way until landsmeet than excute him....every play through he drives me more and more crazy.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

It's not that he's making the decisions.  They're just very bad decisions. 

Not as much bad as they're decisions some players don't agree with. And it's exactly what i meant, the players at large seem unable to accept a viewpoint other than their own as also valid, thus if the NPC doesn't share that particular view of theirs it's teh drama and "HOW DOES SHE DARE TO -3 ME". Which creates a conundrum of just how the NPC would be supposed to show their independence without mortally offending the player in the process...

[Volourn]

"It's impossible to view them as peers. They defer everything to you. I've not seen a group of people so completely dependent upon the choice of one man since... the last time I played a group based RPG."



Morrigan, and Sten don't. They're always questioning you. Morrigan even leaves if you refuse her offer. Sten will challenge you for party leaderhsip if he feels you aren't doing enough about the darkspawn threat (though you can make him back down) And, look at the flak - espicially Morrigan - gets when they disagree the PC. LOTS.





"Well, look at it this way. Alistair makes one (optionally two) individual decisions and it's enough for people to hate his guts and make threads about it. Imagine he was doing as he pleases on every turn instead?



And then everyone else, too?



Players **** but in practice they take other characters showing any kind of independence that cannot be countered with a simple persuasion check very, very badly. It can make you wonder who exactly is being childish in all this "



Well put. People claim to wnat the npcs to show 'independence' yet when they do, people will whine about it non stop.

[Taleroth]

tmp7704 wrote...

 Which creates a conundrum of just how the NPC would be supposed to show their independence without mortally offending the player in the process...

Personally, I find independence to be better displayed by actually doing the things you believe in opposed to simply throwing a tantrum about it.

Which is why I've stated my respect for Wynne, Lelianna, Shale, and Sten.

[apantoliani]

Someone else said it, but so far all of the people on that list are > unlucky individual at the wrong place and wrong time who ran into Duncan. But yet, you somehow end up in charge, of EVERYTHING. Seriously, some stuff that would be better mulled over as a group thing, or at least a Grey Warden thing, nope. Solo.



My first toon was some punk ass noble's brat. Yes, lets give the keys of the kingdom to her. Excellent.



Dog is the only one with any sense. Or maybe he's the craziest, he's at 100 no matter what you do.

[tmp7704]

Taleroth wrote...

Personally, I find independence to be better displayed by actually doing the things you believe in opposed to simply throwing a tantrum about it.

Which is why I've stated my respect for Wynne, Lelianna, Shale, and Sten.

You can see it as tantrum but it can also be seen as having certain/different priorities. E.g. suggesting that a turn right may be a better move than turn left you're going to take, but not considering it an issue important enough to go to blows over it if in the end you still decide to stick with your original plan.

[Taleroth]

tmp7704 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Personally, I find independence to be better displayed by actually doing the things you believe in opposed to simply throwing a tantrum about it.

Which is why I've stated my respect for Wynne, Lelianna, Shale, and Sten.

You can see it as tantrum but it can also be seen as having certain/different priorities. E.g. suggesting that a turn right may be a better move than turn left you're going to take, but not considering it an issue important enough to go to blows over it if in the end you still decide to stick with your original plan.

Except Alistair's priorities in this instance are such that he decides to jump from the vehicle and walk home.  He refuses to take your turn, but in his disagreement, he also refuses to stand up and go the direction he feels is so damned important.  Giving up on it all.

[tmp7704]

Taleroth wrote...

Except Alistair's priorities in this instance are such that he decides to jump from the vehicle and walk home.  He refuses to take your turn, but in his disagreement, he also refuses to stand up and go the direction he feels is so damned important.  Giving up on it all.

Yes, he has literally one thing in the whole world he prioritizes higher than the duty to Grey Wardens. And the players can't stomach it. Now imagine every decisions you make means someone who doesn't like it takes and leaves in a huff? Because clearly if they don't take it to the bitter end then they're just throwing a tantrum...

[RunCDFirst]

tmp7704 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Except Alistair's priorities in this instance are such that he decides to jump from the vehicle and walk home.  He refuses to take your turn, but in his disagreement, he also refuses to stand up and go the direction he feels is so damned important.  Giving up on it all.

Yes, he has literally one thing in the whole world he prioritizes higher than the duty to Grey Wardens. And the players can't stomach it. Now imagine every decisions you make means someone who doesn't like it takes and leaves in a huff? Because clearly if they don't take it to the bitter end then they're just throwing a tantrum...

It would have been interesting if Alistair had declared a duel with you over Loghain's life. Would have been out of character since Alistair really doesn't have that type of backbone, but interesting nevertheless.

[Taleroth]

tmp7704 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Except Alistair's priorities in this instance are such that he decides to jump from the vehicle and walk home.  He refuses to take your turn, but in his disagreement, he also refuses to stand up and go the direction he feels is so damned important.  Giving up on it all.

Yes, he has literally one thing in the whole world he prioritizes higher than the duty to Grey Wardens. And the players can't stomach it. Now imagine every decisions you make means someone who doesn't like it takes and leaves in a huff? Because clearly if they don't take it to the bitter end then they're just throwing a tantrum...

Exactly.  If his conviction is such that his duty to vengeance is greater than his duty to save all of Ferelden, then he has a responsibility to carry out that vengeance.  To fight for it with all the strength he would fight to save Ferelden.

If he is incapable of standing up to this duty, incapable of standing for what he believes in, he is not a man.  He instead abandoned everything.

[tmp7704]

Taleroth wrote...

Exactly.  If his conviction is such that his duty to vengeance is greater than his duty to save all of Ferelden, then he has a responsibility to carry out that vengeance.  To fight for it with all the strength he would fight to save Ferelden.

If he is incapable of standing up to this duty, incapable of standing for what he believes in, he is not a man.  He instead abandoned everything.

Hmm okay this is a valid point. I'd guess it's Alistair's self-doubt that makes him quit rather than fight in that instance, that is, the man literally believe in himself (and his judgement) enough to go to such extreme over it... but yes, can see it could make someone think less of him because of that.

Though not sure how well it'd sit with the players to potentially have to go through two duels in a row, but that's another story and doesn't detract from the main point.

[Recidiva]

Taleroth wrote...

Exactly.  If his conviction is such that his duty to vengeance is greater than his duty to save all of Ferelden, then he has a responsibility to carry out that vengeance.  To fight for it with all the strength he would fight to save Ferelden.

If he is incapable of standing up to this duty, incapable of standing for what he believes in, he is not a man.  He instead abandoned everything.

This is my take on it.  He spends the game idolizing the Grey Wardens, identifying as a Grey Warden, and idolizing Duncan.

I certainly know Duncan well enough and even Riordan knows Duncan and the Grey Wardens well enough to know that Duncan would have swooped at the chance to turn Loghain.   Alistair also spends the game wanting mercy and benevolence.  Alistair abandon's and ignores Duncan's actions and strategy in favor of idolizing the man himself.

It's a bit like watching the movie "Seven" and seeing wrath evoked and irresistable at the end, despite all intentions of the character.

Alistair's final sins are pride and wrath.

It's not as clean as all that, of course, there are so many other issues, Loghain's trustworthiness for one.  And the fact that he killed Duncan and slaughtered so many.  Alistair can't see Loghain as a tool and only sees killing him as a goal.  But to have him back down entirely on everything, love, duty (to the crown or the wardens), in some case executed...and end up with nothing at all to show for it is certainly awful.  Him slaying the archdemon is certainly the ideal ending for him as a character.  As hard as that might be to handle as his friend or lover.

I've thought about whether or not the writers chose certain sins that mirror the demons, desire, sloth, pride, rage....and integrated them into the crisis points and characters purposely.

I haven't drawn up a chart yet, but it seems to rear its head so often, enough to think it's woven more literally into the story than symbolically.  Here is where you face pride:  Here is where you face greed.  Here is where your party member falls to wrath and you can't save him unless you sacrifice reason or mercy.

[Riona45]

Viglin wrote...
While your either an aprentice mage...

Just a note: after your Harrowing, you are a full mage, no longer an apprentice.

[Lucy Glitter]

RunCDFirst wrote...

To  be fair...

- Alistair is a twit.
- Morrigan has no social skills to speak of and would be terrible for leading an army against a Blight
- Leliana has converted to being a servant of her god
- Sten is only in your company because he has been 'released' into your custody
- You are a Grey Warden who mages should be deferring to
- Zev owes you his life
- Oghren's a drunk
- Dog's a dog

Exactly what I wanted to say. Well, kind of.

[ahnnajade]

Lol, to be honest, I wonder how much of Alistair's 'giving up his footing in X outrageous situation' had soooomething to do with the game wanting Alistair to be alive for Landsmeet + end game.

I mean, he may just be that ... wishy. But I have my suspicions~ He might have just up and left like Morrigan does, only to come back for the offer and such, but the whole mission is in theory half of his responsibility, too...

And dying for something in the meantime would make it hard to sacrifice him to the dragon or make him king.



Leliana pulling the guns for the ashes definitely gets her brownie points, tho.

[voidcommander9111980]

Alistair sucks thats for sure ...



The right Ruler is Anora hehe and the amazing Teyrn Loghain (Hitler )



Joker out