479 réponses à ce sujet

[Walina]

I think it's disturbing that both men and women attach themselves too deeply with fictional characters. I'm not trying to judge anyone, but it really is creepy. About as creepy as all those "The Marriage of ___ and ___" threads on facebook that I read.

I find it more disturbing people who adore bastards in real world, it creep me out women marrying serial killers and men adoring Hitler (the aerians ?) or the mafia... THAT's! distubring! How the hell can people like them who killed many othe rpeople ?



So cut the crap, I prefer people liking fictional characters than real ****s.

[Recidiva]

sagevallant wrote...

There's a reason I tend to shy away from the RP servers on WoW. Possibly it's because I like to name my characters wiseass names. And picked up a couple new fun ones surfing around tvtropes.org

Must go rename toon "Determinator"

Heh.  I've stuck entirely to the roleplay servers whenever possible because I just refuse to heal or help someone who has such a ridiculous name as I think they are too stupid to live.  I don't mind Determinator, but I do mind stuff like "PwnU"

I'm a snob.  But it works for me.

I also can't stand abbreviated "who r u" sort of stuff and at least on a roleplay server I can get away with snark and saying I can't work out someone's accent or just saying "Shaka, when the walls fell?" and giggling myself into fits.  I'm so easily amused.

[Original182]

Recidiva wrote...
Well, for me it's not attachment particularly.  Not in the sense that I identify with my character in any one-for-one sense.

But it is immersion and I really enjoy that as my hobby.  Keeping up all disbelief and not getting involved at all defeats the purpose of interactive storytelling, in my opinion.

LIke going to a movie and saying "This is all fake, those are all actors!  Why are you people crying?  That's fake blood!"

Yes, but a GOOD story attaches itself to the listener in such a way as to evoke a response.  This game is just very good at evoking responses unique to my game playing experience unless it's been a roleplay with real online characters and an improv script.

It's the symbols that are compelling. And there are lots of moments that I am so impressed by the scripting, voice acting and writing.  It's "just a game" but it's got a lot of hard work and passion behind it.  I'm enjoying exploring that and appreciating it.

No that's ok if you're moved by a movie.
But it's different, because the characters are played by real people. So if you find Edward hot in Twilight, at least the character is played by a REAL human being. Even if you are moved by an animation like Wall-e, you don't want to have a virtual relationship with it.

So the reason for the creepiness is two-fold:
1. People are taking these virtual relationships a bit too serious for my comfort, as creepy as online relationships.
2. The characters involved are not even real, they're just polygons.

It sort of crossed the line for me. But it's just my 2 cents.

[Eclesis]

Recidiva wrote...

sagevallant wrote...

There's a reason I tend to shy away from the RP servers on WoW. Possibly it's because I like to name my characters wiseass names. And picked up a couple new fun ones surfing around tvtropes.org

Must go rename toon "Determinator"

Heh.  I've stuck entirely to the roleplay servers whenever possible because I just refuse to heal or help someone who has such a ridiculous name as I think they are too stupid to live.  I don't mind Determinator, but I do mind stuff like "PwnU"

I'm a snob.  But it works for me.

I also can't stand abbreviated "who r u" sort of stuff and at least on a roleplay server I can get away with snark and saying I can't work out someone's accent or just saying "Shaka, when the walls fell?" and giggling myself into fits.  I'm so easily amused.

The only real way people have to judge other folks' personalities and behavior online is how they speak (type) and act. "who r u" indicates "I can't be bothered to type in real English", just as it does in forums. If so, I can't be bothered to help said typer, either

[ReubenLiew]

But silly names are the cornerstone of any good MMO!

Like the Guild called 'Your mom is my epic mount'! How can you deny such a goldmine?

[ComTrav]

Recidiva wrote...

sagevallant wrote...

There's a reason I tend to shy away from the RP servers on WoW. Possibly it's because I like to name my characters wiseass names. And picked up a couple new fun ones surfing around tvtropes.org

Must go rename toon "Determinator"

Heh.  I've stuck entirely to the roleplay servers whenever possible because I just refuse to heal or help someone who has such a ridiculous name as I think they are too stupid to live.  I don't mind Determinator, but I do mind stuff like "PwnU"

I'm a snob.  But it works for me.

I also can't stand abbreviated "who r u" sort of stuff and at least on a roleplay server I can get away with snark and saying I can't work out someone's accent or just saying "Shaka, when the walls fell?" and giggling myself into fits.  I'm so easily amused.

No one will ever believe you are actually a woman if you reference Star Trek.

[sagevallant]

Walina wrote...

I think it's disturbing that both men and women attach themselves too deeply with fictional characters. I'm not trying to judge anyone, but it really is creepy. About as creepy as all those "The Marriage of ___ and ___" threads on facebook that I read.

I find it more disturbing people who adore bastards in real world, it creep me out women marrying serial killers and men adoring Hitler (the aerians ?) or the mafia... THAT's! distubring! How the hell can people like them who killed many othe rpeople ?

So cut the crap, I prefer people liking fictional characters than real ****s.

Aryian. It originally referred to an ethnic group that invaded and conquered India, pretty much at the beginning of  recorded history (read: Not a bunch of Dutch people). It basically means "the victorious". They also stole the swastika from this group, but at least had the decency to flip it over instead of outright stealing the fanboy copyright on that one.

And, just for the sake of argument, people who do horrible things like that don't all walk around carrying a machete and wearing a hockey mask. Some of them can be VERY VERY hard to spot. Other people, being human after all, like the money, or the drugs, or the fame / infamy... people can be corrupted. People can be willfully blind of what's happening around them. And, yes, they can just plain be afraid of trying to stop said person's horrible actions. Self-preservation is a powerful motivator.

Real people are real people. Fake people are fake people. Obsessing over either kind of people is equally alarming, and a reason for seeking mental help

[RunCDFirst]

Original182 wrote...
No that's ok if you're moved by a movie.
But it's different, because the characters are played by real people. So if you find Edward hot in Twilight, at least the character is played by a REAL human being. Even if you are moved by an animation like Wall-e, you don't want to have a virtual relationship with it.

So the reason for the creepiness is two-fold:
1. People are taking these virtual relationships a bit too serious for my comfort, as creepy as online relationships.
2. The characters involved are not even real, they're just polygons.

It sort of crossed the line for me. But it's just my 2 cents.

Games are voiced by real people. The characters are often modeled off real people too.
Plus, you can't tell me that movies aren't using computers to touch up their actors to make them look more attractive. Video characters are becoming more real while movie characters are becoming more fake.

[Eclesis]

Original182 wrote...

No that's ok if you're moved by a movie.
But it's different, because the characters are played by real people. So if you find Edward hot in Twilight, at least the character is played by a REAL human being. Even if you are moved by an animation like Wall-e, you don't want to have a virtual relationship with it.

So the reason for the creepiness is two-fold:
1. People are taking these virtual relationships a bit too serious for my comfort, as creepy as online relationships.
2. The characters involved are not even real, they're just polygons.

It sort of crossed the line for me. But it's just my 2 cents.

Is it so different, though? To be moved by characters in a book or a movie I'd argue that you have to empathize with them somewhat. You laugh when they laugh and cry when they cry, there's a certain amount of identification with the PoV character(s), even if they are not "you". An RPG protagonist is just a different form of that.

I don't think anybody who's been squeeing over these virtual characters is getting their reality and fantasy mixed up. They realize it's not real, but it's just fun to enjoy the fantasy, to experience something different because that's what fiction is for.

I could be wrong, of course. All the real life Dwarven Noble Warriors in the audience please stand up?

[Recidiva]

Original182 wrote...

No that's ok if you're moved by a movie.
But it's different, because the characters are played by real people. So if you find Edward hot in Twilight, at least the character is played by a REAL human being. Even if you are moved by an animation like Wall-e, you don't want to have a virtual relationship with it.

So the reason for the creepiness is two-fold:
1. People are taking these virtual relationships a bit too serious for my comfort, as creepy as online relationships.
2. The characters involved are not even real, they're just polygons.

It sort of crossed the line for me. But it's just my 2 cents.

I can get worked up over a book, too.  Reading Lord of the Rings makes me feel attached to characters in the book, and I fell in love with the story and characters long before any real person made them come alive for me.

My brain made them come alive.  Other people's brains made the characters and situations come alive for themselves.  But whether or not it's a book or a movie or a game, you're encountering the thoughts of the authors and designers.  Lord of the Rings gives me an affection and respect for JRR Tolkein.  This game gives me affection and respect for the developers and actors and animators and writers.  They're real people.  And they clearly cared enough to send their very best.

Whether it's paper or voice or movies or whatever, it's the ideas and the symbols that are the touchstone.  Not the pixels.

1.  Nobody's forcing you to take it more seriously than you'd like to, so youre comfort level is irrelevant as long as you're comfortable with your own experience.
2.  The characters are a result of a load of creative effort, involving people choosing facial expression, voice tone, social nuance.  It's incredibly complicated and a hell of a work of art.  In my opinion dismissing art because it's essentially only symbolic is missing the point entirely.  In that sense, any amazing sculpture is just a hunk of matter, an amazing book is just a bunch of black and white symbols on paper and any movie is just a long strip of celluloid stock.

[Recidiva]

Eclesis wrote...

The only real way people have to judge other folks' personalities and behavior online is how they speak (type) and act. "who r u" indicates "I can't be bothered to type in real English", just as it does in forums. If so, I can't be bothered to help said typer, either

Right.  If folks are going to do the absolute minimum in order to communicate, I'll go one better and do the absolute least I can do.  Not respond.

I'm looking for effort.

[sagevallant]

Original182 wrote...

Recidiva wrote...
Well, for me it's not attachment particularly.  Not in the sense that I identify with my character in any one-for-one sense.

But it is immersion and I really enjoy that as my hobby.  Keeping up all disbelief and not getting involved at all defeats the purpose of interactive storytelling, in my opinion.

LIke going to a movie and saying "This is all fake, those are all actors!  Why are you people crying?  That's fake blood!"

Yes, but a GOOD story attaches itself to the listener in such a way as to evoke a response.  This game is just very good at evoking responses unique to my game playing experience unless it's been a roleplay with real online characters and an improv script.

It's the symbols that are compelling. And there are lots of moments that I am so impressed by the scripting, voice acting and writing.  It's "just a game" but it's got a lot of hard work and passion behind it.  I'm enjoying exploring that and appreciating it.

No that's ok if you're moved by a movie.
But it's different, because the characters are played by real people. So if you find Edward hot in Twilight, at least the character is played by a REAL human being. Even if you are moved by an animation like Wall-e, you don't want to have a virtual relationship with it.

So the reason for the creepiness is two-fold:
1. People are taking these virtual relationships a bit too serious for my comfort, as creepy as online relationships.
2. The characters involved are not even real, they're just polygons.

It sort of crossed the line for me. But it's just my 2 cents.

1. There are real people involved in online "relationships." In fact, you can actually talk to people online these days. Unlike the celebs you idolize, who wouldn't know you from any of the hundreds of people begging for an autograph and saying how much you idolize them.

2. But there are actors behind the pixel-people, that's not a computer voice. More than that, it's a picture. It's art. Are you saying that a moving picture of a real person on a projection screen can be hot, and it's ok, but it's not ok for a woman painted on canvas by an artist to be hot?

[Recidiva]

ReubenLiew wrote...

But silly names are the cornerstone of any good MMO!
Like the Guild called 'Your mom is my epic mount'! How can you deny such a goldmine?

Oh, well, Guild names are different.  Funny ones are awesome.  I always go with "Bastion of Sanity" myself.  It's tradition.  Just me and my husband in a guild, in all our altaholic glory.

[Recidiva]

ComTrav wrote...

No one will ever believe you are actually a woman if you reference Star Trek.

And yet I persist in having boobs.  The nerve of me.

[sagevallant]

Recidiva wrote...

ComTrav wrote...

No one will ever believe you are actually a woman if you reference Star Trek.

And yet I persist in having boobs.  The nerve of me.

It's never easy, losing a nice pair of boobs. That's what REALLY makes men cry when their girlfriends dump them.

[Original182]

Eclesis wrote...
I don't think anybody who's been squeeing over these virtual characters is getting their reality and fantasy mixed up. They realize it's not real, but it's just fun to enjoy the fantasy, to experience something different because that's what fiction is for.
I could be wrong, of course. All the real life Dwarven Noble Warriors in the audience please stand up?

Yes, this is the key statement. I have NO PROBLEM if you're moved by Alistair sacrificing himself in the end, disturbed by Isolde killing her own son, etc. Those are ok, I'm not talking about these reactions.
I also have no problem if people work to have a romantic relationship with characters, just to see more of the story.

The context of my post was regarding virtual romances in the game. It is when people are taking it too seriously, that it worries me.

[Taleroth]

Recidiva wrote...

ComTrav wrote...

No one will ever believe you are actually a woman if you reference Star Trek.

And yet I persist in having boobs.  The nerve of me.

Have you no decency!

[Recidiva]

Taleroth wrote...

Have you no decency!

Apparently not, no. 

[ComTrav]

You have to invest yourself emotionally in almost any entertainment for it to come alive and have meaning to you.



Where gaming is unique as a storytelling medium is its ability to draw you in, and for your choices to impact the world. If I'm reading (or watching) King Lear, I will get attached to Lear and feel sorry for him. If I'm playing Bioware's King Lear: The Video Game, early on I may decide that Cordelia's really not a very grateful daughter and deserves to be cut out of the inheritance. And later in the game when Regan and Goneril have kicked me out on my butt, I will FEEL regret at having done so. (Especially if it was an 'unforced' choice, and I could have just as easily kept Cordelia in.)



I also give credit to Bioware for realizing and exploring this potential. Too many game-makers view the story and gameplay elements of the game as disjointed--you do a gameplay segment, and then the story unfolds with little input/control from the player. (Sometimes they think that this is being 'cinematic', as if an interactive medium should aspire to be a non-interactive one.)

[Taleroth]

Recidiva wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Have you no decency!

Apparently not, no. 

I think it's very important to be comftorable with yourself.  And your breast having Star Treking issue.

Modifié par Taleroth, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:58 .

[RunCDFirst]

ComTrav wrote...

You have to invest yourself emotionally in almost any entertainment for it to come alive and have meaning to you.

Where gaming is unique as a storytelling medium is its ability to draw you in, and for your choices to impact the world. If I'm reading (or watching) King Lear, I will get attached to Lear and feel sorry for him. If I'm playing Bioware's King Lear: The Video Game, early on I may decide that Cordelia's really not a very grateful daughter and deserves to be cut out of the inheritance. And later in the game when Regan and Goneril have kicked me out on my butt, I will FEEL regret at having done so. (Especially if it was an 'unforced' choice, and I could have just as easily kept Cordelia in.)

I also give credit to Bioware for realizing and exploring this potential. Too many game-makers view the story and gameplay elements of the game as disjointed--you do a gameplay segment, and then the story unfolds with little input/control from the player. (Sometimes they think that this is being 'cinematic', as if an interactive medium should aspire to be a non-interactive one.)

Amen.
You know, the reason this thread reached 14 pages is because we started discussing boobs.

[sagevallant]

ComTrav wrote...

You have to invest yourself emotionally in almost any entertainment for it to come alive and have meaning to you.

Where gaming is unique as a storytelling medium is its ability to draw you in, and for your choices to impact the world. If I'm reading (or watching) King Lear, I will get attached to Lear and feel sorry for him. If I'm playing Bioware's King Lear: The Video Game, early on I may decide that Cordelia's really not a very grateful daughter and deserves to be cut out of the inheritance. And later in the game when Regan and Goneril have kicked me out on my butt, I will FEEL regret at having done so. (Especially if it was an 'unforced' choice, and I could have just as easily kept Cordelia in.)

I also give credit to Bioware for realizing and exploring this potential. Too many game-makers view the story and gameplay elements of the game as disjointed--you do a gameplay segment, and then the story unfolds with little input/control from the player. (Sometimes they think that this is being 'cinematic', as if an interactive medium should aspire to be a non-interactive one.)

Lear is an idiot. His youngest daughter was CLEARLY the only nice one.

[Original182]

Recidiva wrote...
I can get worked up over a book, too.  Reading Lord of the Rings makes me feel attached to characters in the book, and I fell in love with the story and characters long before any real person made them come alive for me.

Again, I have no problem with this. I'm not saying there's something wrong with you if you are moved by stories.
The context of my post was regarding virtual romances with fictitious characters. Only if people pursue fictitious romances a bit too seriously, then it is worrying.

That doesn't mean anyone who works to achieve that romance is creepy. I also did that. They probably just want to see how it unfolds, etc.

It's when people take it too seriously, then it's a worry.

1.  Nobody's forcing you to take it more seriously than you'd like to, so youre comfort level is irrelevant as long as you're comfortable with your own experience.
2.  The characters are a result of a load of creative effort, involving people choosing facial expression, voice tone, social nuance.  It's incredibly complicated and a hell of a work of art.  In my opinion dismissing art because it's essentially only symbolic is missing the point entirely.  In that sense, any amazing sculpture is just a hunk of matter, an amazing book is just a bunch of black and white symbols on paper and any movie is just a long strip of celluloid stock.

Easy, I was just giving my 2 cents. Public forum and all.

[Recidiva]

Taleroth wrote...

I think it's very important to be comftorable with yourself.  And your breast having Star Treking issue.

Me, my boobs, and my very large sword are very comfortable, thank you.  Live long and prosper.