479 réponses à ce sujet

[Riona45]

LdyShayna wrote...



Completely incorrect.  Do please read what some of the women who like the character have ACTUALLY said about what they like about him, rather than ascribing some really disturbing motivations to them out of the blue.  Thanks. 

Seconded...

[Recidiva]

DariusKalera wrote...

I can see the Xander in him, but not the Malcolm Reynolds.  I really can't see Alistair walking up to a guy and stabbing him in the head and continue on without batting an eye. (Ok, Mal shot the guy and continued on, but same deal)  Not even after he's been hardened by the story line.

Maybe if Bioware had put alot more of Mal's darkness into Alistair, I would have liked him better.

Yes.  And that's the weird part for me.  Alistair spends most of his life drowning in darkness and never learns to swim in it?  By the time he's gone through murdering young girls in a Harrowing and standing by in Joinings where Duncan murders people and he doesn't bat an eyelash?  I think it's possible to navigate darkness and still hold onto inherent goodness, so I went with that interpretation.  But in the end, all he really held onto was illusion and that's bad writing to some extent.

Malcolm's plenty funny, but it's not deflecting.  And that's the part that irked me.  My sense of humor is very Joss Whedonesque.  Humor can be a very useful strategic and diplomatic weapon and that's how I see it.  To have it relegated somehow to the low ranks of adaptation made me completely miss that aspect of Alistair's character, because the humor was SO well done. it's really impossible to be that funny and be that clueless.  His humor to me, implied acceptance and understanding, where to others it implied rejection and deflection.

It's very hard for me to see that in any way other than taking someone who behaves one way, and writing for them in an idiom that doesn't fit them.

[Kuravid]

Recidiva wrote...

Yes.  And that's the weird part for me.  Alistair spends most of his life drowning in darkness and never learns to swim in it?  By the time he's gone through murdering young girls in a Harrowing and standing by in Joinings where Duncan murders people and he doesn't bat an eyelash?  I think it's possible to navigate darkness and still hold onto inherent goodness, so I went with that interpretation.  But in the end, all he really held onto was illusion and that's bad writing to some extent.

.

Actually, him not learning how to, as you put it, "swim in the darkness" makes a lot of sense to me. Emotional disengaging/repression/rationalization are very powerful tools. For people, especially people who have experienced some kind of disabling trauma in their lives, often learn how to turn themselves off emotionally during periods of intense stress. Maybe it was just bad writing and the developers aren't trying to be that clever and I'm just reading into things, but who knows.

[.Faine]

AegisArete wrote...

I just hope this gets all the yahoos who go around saying "women want bad boys" and "nice guys finish last" and all that nonsense to reconsider their positions. This thread would seem to be laden with quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.

If I'm completely honest, I think that the biggest selling point for an attractive male character is a soft and squishy inside that only we get a true look into. Bad boy or nice guy, if they've got a good heart the majority of ladies will like them. Still, it was very refreshing not to be stuck with a 'bad boy' that had to be pried open with a crowbar whilst in search of some soul. So often the 'intensity' that comes with a 'bad boy' seems unhealthy to me... for example the recent Edward Cullen. Kind and humorous Alistair, despite needing a little bit of toughening up in a few areas, is definitely a more appealing choice than a stoic, silent and 'intense' stereotype.

[Recidiva]

Kuravid wrote...

Actually, him not learning how to, as you put it, "swim in the darkness" makes a lot of sense to me. Emotional disengaging/repression/rationalization are very powerful tools. For people, especially people who have experienced some kind of disabling trauma in their lives, often learn how to turn themselves off emotionally during periods of intense stress. Maybe it was just bad writing and the developers aren't trying to be that clever and I'm just reading into things, but who knows.

Alistair did not have the signs of being emotionally repressed.  For that, see almost every other male RPG hero ever written.

[Recidiva]

.Faine wrote...

If I'm completely honest, I think that the biggest selling point for an attractive male character is a soft and squishy inside that only we get a true look into. Bad boy or nice guy, if they've got a good heart the majority of ladies will like them. Still, it was very refreshing not to be stuck with a 'bad boy' that had to be pried open with a crowbar whilst in search of some soul. So often the 'intensity' that comes with a 'bad boy' seems unhealthy to me... for example the recent Edward Cullen. Kind and humorous Alistair, despite needing a little bit of toughening up in a few areas, is definitely a more appealing choice than a stoic, silent and 'intense' stereotype.

Aaaaymen.

Congratulations to Bioware for being emotionally mature enough to not hand a woman every macho stereotype that is so insanely tiring.  As tiring as the femme fatale (sorry Morrigan) stereotype.

But then I take some of those congratulations back for not following through on the emotionally mature part at about...two thirds through the story.

[Kuravid]

.Faine wrote...

If I'm completely honest, I think that the biggest selling point for an attractive male character is a soft and squishy inside that only we get a true look into. Bad boy or nice guy, if they've got a good heart the majority of ladies will like them. Still, it was very refreshing not to be stuck with a 'bad boy' that had to be pried open with a crowbar whilst in search of some soul. So often the 'intensity' that comes with a 'bad boy' seems unhealthy to me... for example the recent Edward Cullen. Kind and humorous Alistair, despite needing a little bit of toughening up in a few areas, is definitely a more appealing choice than a stoic, silent and 'intense' stereotype.

I agree with that, though I believe that being either too nice or too bad is just too much and therefore unhealthy.

And, really, like, WOW. The Twilight movie is just rife with psychologically backward and screwed up...things.

[Kohaku]

Recidiva wrote...

Kuravid wrote...

Actually, him not learning how to, as you put it, "swim in the darkness" makes a lot of sense to me. Emotional disengaging/repression/rationalization are very powerful tools. For people, especially people who have experienced some kind of disabling trauma in their lives, often learn how to turn themselves off emotionally during periods of intense stress. Maybe it was just bad writing and the developers aren't trying to be that clever and I'm just reading into things, but who knows.

Alistair did not have the signs of being emotionally repressed.  For that, see almost every other male RPG hero ever written.

I have to agree here. Some of the men in games are just head cases. In other Bioware games I have to be a therapist. It's creepy.

[.Faine]

Kuravid wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

Yes.  And that's the weird part for me.  Alistair spends most of his life drowning in darkness and never learns to swim in it?  By the time he's gone through murdering young girls in a Harrowing and standing by in Joinings where Duncan murders people and he doesn't bat an eyelash?  I think it's possible to navigate darkness and still hold onto inherent goodness, so I went with that interpretation.  But in the end, all he really held onto was illusion and that's bad writing to some extent.

.

Actually, him not learning how to, as you put it, "swim in the darkness" makes a lot of sense to me. Emotional disengaging/repression/rationalization are very powerful tools. For people, especially people who have experienced some kind of disabling trauma in their lives, often learn how to turn themselves off emotionally during periods of intense stress. Maybe it was just bad writing and the developers aren't trying to be that clever and I'm just reading into things, but who knows.

I think his way of 'swimming in the darkness' is to disengage with his humour. These things seem to effect him a great deal beneath the surface but he tries to lessen the intensity of a situation with sarcasm and wit. He has moments where he snaps though, such as the Landsmeet or back at camp if you kill Connor or Isolde.

Anyway, I'd say Kuravid hit the nail on the head with the disengaging thing.

[Kuravid]

Recidiva wrote...

Alistair did not have the signs of being emotionally repressed.  For that, see almost every other male RPG hero ever written.

You can be emotionally repressed in various instances. Usually it all gets assigned in the wrong way. For example, you can be too upset when, say, your girlfriend shows up late from work and you flip out about it, yet when your best friend dies you just seem to kind of shut off, so on. It's not that he doesn't have the signs, it's just that it's varied.

And yes, emotional repression is just kind of a cliche when it comes to RPG heroes period. Or heroes in general. 

[Kinaori]

.Faine wrote...

AegisArete wrote...

I just hope this gets all the yahoos who go around saying "women want bad boys" and "nice guys finish last" and all that nonsense to reconsider their positions. This thread would seem to be laden with quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.

If I'm completely honest, I think that the biggest selling point for an attractive male character is a soft and squishy inside that only we get a true look into. Bad boy or nice guy, if they've got a good heart the majority of ladies will like them. Still, it was very refreshing not to be stuck with a 'bad boy' that had to be pried open with a crowbar whilst in search of some soul. So often the 'intensity' that comes with a 'bad boy' seems unhealthy to me... for example the recent Edward Cullen. Kind and humorous Alistair, despite needing a little bit of toughening up in a few areas, is definitely a more appealing choice than a stoic, silent and 'intense' stereotype.

Yes yes yes.  The brooding and emotionally scarred "I have no parents" bit is tired for sure.  I know a LOT more real guys like Alistair, thank goodness.  Thank you Bioware 

[Recidiva]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

I have to agree here. Some of the men in games are just head cases. In other Bioware games I have to be a therapist. It's creepy.

As muich as I loved KOTOR, the only person even approaching me being romantically interested wias HK-47. 

[Lady Catastrophe]

Vansen Elamber wrote...
 I am wondering then if British women would also think Alistar has a "very sexy accent" ?

I do.
I'm British and I have a rather 'slangy' accent,and I adore Alistair's.

[Recidiva]

.Faine wrote...

I think his way of 'swimming in the darkness' is to disengage with his humour. These things seem to effect him a great deal beneath the surface but he tries to lessen the intensity of a situation with sarcasm and wit. He has moments where he snaps though, such as the Landsmeet or back at camp if you kill Connor or Isolde.

Anyway, I'd say Kuravid hit the nail on the head with the disengaging thing.

I'd have bought that if the humor wasn't so insightful and well delivered. 

In the end I think Alistair was written not wisely but too well.  He's very emotionally honest in his humor.  He's very articulate and understandable about why exactly he did or didn't do what he did or exactly how he feels.

Everything is perfectly rationalized and explained.  The humor is just lagniappe.  He never JUST cracks a joke without telling you exactly why he's joking.  That's not deflection, that's just embellishment.

Modifié par Recidiva, 30 novembre 2009 - 11:29 .

[Recidiva]

Kuravid wrote...

You can be emotionally repressed in various instances. Usually it all gets assigned in the wrong way. For example, you can be too upset when, say, your girlfriend shows up late from work and you flip out about it, yet when your best friend dies you just seem to kind of shut off, so on. It's not that he doesn't have the signs, it's just that it's varied.

And yes, emotional repression is just kind of a cliche when it comes to RPG heroes period. Or heroes in general. 

Deflection is EFFECTIVE though.  He doesn't ever really deflect any direct question, he answers it.  He is just funny about it.  He has good reasons for not disclosing everything about his parentage, and that's really the only time that he conceals anything at all.

And you don't even have to pry it out of him, he comes and tells you when it's relevant.

That is NOT deflection.  

Deflection is "Hey, Alistair, I heard you were heir to the throne"
"Look!  A plane!"

not "Hey, Alistair, I heard you were heir to the throne"
"Look!  A plane!  Well, really, I just wanted you to like me for me."

[red8x]

LdyShayna wrote...

red8x wrote...

I really did not like Alistair. He was an obedient puppy-dog. As I try to think of a reason why he has so much appeal I can only guess it's because he is a virgin and the female PC gets to be his first giving a sense of empowerment and at the same time, since he is so helpless and clueless, he invokes a motherly love. Definitely Freudian.
.

Completely incorrect.  Do please read what some of the women who like the character have ACTUALLY said about what they like about him, rather than ascribing some really disturbing motivations to them out of the blue.  Thanks. 

To clarify by 'female PC' I did not mean the actual human being playing the game, but rather the in-game female character.  There are dialog tree options where you directly discuss virginity with Alistair.  Also, there is dialog with Leliana where she tells you he is like a puppy dog and good at following instructions.  

Also, I was merely expressing an opinion which echoes similar opinions already present on this thread.  For instance:

taxtell wrote...

The innocence is definitely a factor as well...mmmhmm.

Kuravid wrote...

The type of guy that will look to you as a surrogate parent,
sucking you dry mentally and emotionally for as long as he can. Yuck.

and

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

I have to agree here. Some of the
men in games are just head cases. In other Bioware games I have to be a
therapist. It's creepy.

So why was I singled out of the blue?  And how can an opinion be completely incorrect?

[.Faine]

Recidiva wrote...

I'd have bought that if the humor wasn't so insightful and well delivered. 

In the end I think Alistair was written not wisely but too well.  He's very emotionally honest in his humor.  He's very articulate and understandable about why exactly he did or didn't do what he did or exactly how he feels.

Everything is perfectly rationalized and explained.  The humor is just lagniappe.  He never JUST cracks a joke without telling you exactly why he's joking.  That's not deflection, that's just embellishment.

I'd agree that he always knows why he's joking and is pretty honest about it, however, I still see it as a form of deflection in it's own way. He prefers to express himself humorously whilst trying to lighten a situation that would otherwise weigh him down a great deal. As I mentioned before, I think he's a man with very strong ideals and when an unidealistic world is regularly thrown in his face he's left feeling frustrated and somewhat helpless so tries to disengage with humour. When a situation hits him hard enough (defeat at Ostagar, Duncan's death, Isolde or Connor's death, sparing Loghain etc.) there's not a word of wit to be found and I think we get a better look into how much things bother him.

[DariusKalera]

Recidiva wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

I can see the Xander in him, but not the Malcolm Reynolds.  I really can't see Alistair walking up to a guy and stabbing him in the head and continue on without batting an eye. (Ok, Mal shot the guy and continued on, but same deal)  Not even after he's been hardened by the story line.

Maybe if Bioware had put alot more of Mal's darkness into Alistair, I would have liked him better.

Yes.  And that's the weird part for me.  Alistair spends most of his life drowning in darkness and never learns to swim in it?  By the time he's gone through murdering young girls in a Harrowing and standing by in Joinings where Duncan murders people and he doesn't bat an eyelash?  I think it's possible to navigate darkness and still hold onto inherent goodness, so I went with that interpretation.  But in the end, all he really held onto was illusion and that's bad writing to some extent.

Malcolm's plenty funny, but it's not deflecting.  And that's the part that irked me.  My sense of humor is very Joss Whedonesque.  Humor can be a very useful strategic and diplomatic weapon and that's how I see it.  To have it relegated somehow to the low ranks of adaptation made me completely miss that aspect of Alistair's character, because the humor was SO well done. it's really impossible to be that funny and be that clueless.  His humor to me, implied acceptance and understanding, where to others it implied rejection and deflection.

It's very hard for me to see that in any way other than taking someone who behaves one way, and writing for them in an idiom that doesn't fit them.

Alistair's humor, to me at least, was alot closer to Wash's.  For some reason, I do not doubt that he would play with small dinosaur toys, or the DAO equivalent, and making sounds while doing so.

Also, I see him using his humor as a way to insulate himself from the realities that he is facing and to protect his illusions of the Grey Wardens.  He doesn't want to see the dark side of them and any time something relating to that is brought up he quickly cracks a joke and tries to change the subject.  I get the feeling that he knows that if he took a real hard look at the Warden's he would not like alot of what he saw.  

Even after the hardening, I can not see Alistair blackmailing someone and saying that he would save the remainder of thier family only if the youngest child would be inducted into the Warden's.  Nor can I see him killing Ser Jory.  His reaction to Jory's death made it seem like he saw no difference between how he, Jory, died and how Daveth died when there most certainly was one.

I really can not help but think of Alistair as a spoiled and obnoxious kid who needs to impose his own reality on things to keep himself from breaking down. 

[Recidiva]

.Faine wrote...

I'd agree that he always knows why he's joking and is pretty honest about it, however, I still see it as a form of deflection in it's own way. He prefers to express himself humorously whilst trying to lighten a situation that would otherwise weigh him down a great deal. As I mentioned before, I think he's a man with very strong ideals and when an unidealistic world is regularly thrown in his face he's left feeling frustrated and somewhat helpless so tries to disengage with humour. When a situation hits him hard enough (defeat at Ostagar, Duncan's death, Isolde or Connor's death, sparing Loghain etc.) there's not a word of wit to be found and I think we get a better look into how much things bother him.

Right.  We're in agreement there.

It's a form of deflection as far as changing the tone of a message in order to make it easier to digest.  It isn't avoiding the message or failing to deliver the message.

Look at any of the other RPG archetypes.

Female Protagonist:  Do you want to...you know...share?
Male Protagonist:  I've got a lot on my mind.
Female Protagonist:  Do you want to talk about it?
Male Protagonist:  No.  Look, I don't have time for this.
Female Protagonist:  Fine.  I'll go back to looking pretty then.  For all the good it does me.
Male Protagonist:  *grunt*  *distracted brooding* 

Alistair is the opposite of that worn to death stereotype and I'm grateful for it.  I don't accept that his form of humor is anything but a happy personality trait where wit and self-effacing tendencies gracefully meet and try to make everyone else's day a little brighter.

[RunCDFirst]

DariusKalera wrote...
Alistair's humor, to me at least, was alot closer to Wash's.  For some reason, I do not doubt that he would play with small dinosaur toys, or the DAO equivalent, and making sounds while doing so.

Why else would he love getting all those statuettes?

[Recidiva]

DariusKalera wrote...

Alistair's humor, to me at least, was alot closer to Wash's.  For some reason, I do not doubt that he would play with small dinosaur toys, or the DAO equivalent, and making sounds while doing so.

Also, I see him using his humor as a way to insulate himself from the realities that he is facing and to protect his illusions of the Grey Wardens.  He doesn't want to see the dark side of them and any time something relating to that is brought up he quickly cracks a joke and tries to change the subject.  I get the feeling that he knows that if he took a real hard look at the Warden's he would not like alot of what he saw.  

Even after the hardening, I can not see Alistair blackmailing someone and saying that he would save the remainder of thier family only if the youngest child would be inducted into the Warden's.  Nor can I see him killing Ser Jory.  His reaction to Jory's death made it seem like he saw no difference between how he, Jory, died and how Daveth died when there most certainly was one.

I really can not help but think of Alistair as a spoiled and obnoxious kid who needs to impose his own reality on things to keep himself from breaking down. 

Heh.  He is a lot like Wash.  Straight down to the "Curse you and your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" and making me cry a lot when he dies.

I don't see Alistair at all like Duncan, but that's why I see Alistair as an improvement.

Not disagreeing with your interpretation though.  At some point it just comes down to personalities grating on one another.  I happen to love the humor and that's why I appreciate him so much.  Same way that Leliana annoys me, but she's absolutely charming to other people.

My daughter recently moved away and her biggest complaint?  Nobody to banter with.  I love banter.  Alistair is a banter gold mine.

[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

Congratulations to Bioware for being emotionally mature enough to not hand a woman every macho stereotype that is so insanely tiring.  As tiring as the femme fatale (sorry Morrigan) stereotype.

Morrigan isn't a femme fatale.  Femme Fatales use their femine wiles to enrapture guys, wrap them around their finger, and then use them to their own ends.  Morrigan doesn't have the experience with people to manipulate that way and it is also against her nature.  She's far too outspoken.

Leliana could pull it off.  Probably has in her bardic past.  But Morrigan isn't subtle.

But I'll let you gals get back to chatting about smelly ol' Alistair now

[Malificis]

Axterix wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

Congratulations to Bioware for being emotionally mature enough to not hand a woman every macho stereotype that is so insanely tiring.  As tiring as the femme fatale (sorry Morrigan) stereotype.

Morrigan isn't a femme fatale.  Femme Fatales use their femine wiles to enrapture guys, wrap them around their finger, and then use them to their own ends.  Morrigan doesn't have the experience with people to manipulate that way and it is also against her nature.  She's far too outspoken.

Leliana could pull it off.  Probably has in her bardic past.  But Morrigan isn't subtle.

But I'll let you gals get back to chatting about smelly ol' Alistair now

I do not wish to take this too far off topic but this is extremely misinformed.
She is an interesting twist on a "femme fatale" and absolutely uses your character by feminine wiles though in context she cannot be stopped from doing so - she has your life in her hands.
If you do not let her enrapture you however, she still has your life in her hands so you've lost either way.
E.g. bats eyelashes at guard to blame chasind man not her. see Lothering period.
she knows nothing of society and politics to the point where its amusing but she knows a lot about people in terms of appealing to primal instincts. she applies this to everything. e.g. "lets go to castle and kill Loghain" (though there is more to this element).
dont argue this point you will make yourself look like a fool ;p

/offtopic end

[DariusKalera]

Recidiva wrote...
Heh.  He is a lot like Wash.  Straight down to the "Curse you and your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" and making me cry a lot when he dies.

I don't see Alistair at all like Duncan, but that's why I see Alistair as an improvement.

Not disagreeing with your interpretation though.  At some point it just comes down to personalities grating on one another.  I happen to love the humor and that's why I appreciate him so much.  Same way that Leliana annoys me, but she's absolutely charming to other people.

My daughter recently moved away and her biggest complaint?  Nobody to banter with.  I love banter.  Alistair is a banter gold mine.

Well, Leliana annoys me too.  Actually alot more than Alistair does.

Alistair probably would not have grated on me so badly if some of his jokes hadn't made him seem so childish and unintelligent. 

[.Faine]

Recidiva wrote...

Right.  We're in agreement there.

It's a form of deflection as far as changing the tone of a message in order to make it easier to digest.  It isn't avoiding the message or failing to deliver the message.

Look at any of the other RPG archetypes.

Female Protagonist:  Do you want to...you know...share?
Male Protagonist:  I've got a lot on my mind.
Female Protagonist:  Do you want to talk about it?
Male Protagonist:  No.  Look, I don't have time for this.
Female Protagonist:  Fine.  I'll go back to looking pretty then.  For all the good it does me.
Male Protagonist:  *grunt*  *distracted brooding* 

Alistair is the opposite of that worn to death stereotype and I'm grateful for it.  I don't accept that his form of humor is anything but a happy personality trait where wit and self-effacing tendencies gracefully meet and try to make everyone else's day a little brighter.

I love your little protagonist talk. So true.

Anyways, I wouldn't say that Alistair's humour is entirely based upon softening a message - he has hilarious comments to make in light hearted situations too after all. I think his wit is just something he's naturally gifted with and falls back on in hard times as a coping mechanism for himself, not to try and deflect a player character per se, but as a way to deflect emotional tension. Hell, he even uses humour to try and lessen his awkwardness in a romance by, yes, making fun of his own awkwardness and being completely honest about it. He takes a difficult situation, is completely honest about it and then laughs at it to make it less of an issue. It's a strange mix of avoidance and confrontation that I think was really well written into his character.

At any rate, I think we're more or less in agreement unless I'm completely losing the plot now. It's getting late here and I have studies to finish. Aaaaah, procrastination.