479 réponses à ce sujet

[Recidiva]

Axterix wrote...

Morrigan isn't a femme fatale.  Femme Fatales use their femine wiles to enrapture guys, wrap them around their finger, and then use them to their own ends.  Morrigan doesn't have the experience with people to manipulate that way and it is also against her nature.  She's far too outspoken.

Leliana could pull it off.  Probably has in her bardic past.  But Morrigan isn't subtle.

But I'll let you gals get back to chatting about smelly ol' Alistair now

The Alistair female equivalent would have to be voiced by Carol Kane.

The femme fatale in my description manipulates sex and men for her own purposes.  That's pretty much what I saw.  She manipulated by withholding information and only using it at the crucial moment she knew would arrive.  I don't see how that makes it less valid than knowing which shade of lipstick to wear.  Which she does, by the way.

[MatronAdena]

Again, I will just say, that yes I'm VERY glad that Allister is pretty...unique, to the male roles we see alot. We tend to see more...all brawn and no brain, or we get a crying little emo kid, and he is not in those lines.

When it comes to me " the woman playing the game" he's just not my type. a wonderful guy, and very likely a very close friend. But I could never be with him in the sense that I just...I feel like I would be parenting him quite alot as well. And I already pushed out, and take care of two son's, I don't need a third. ( Im not saying he's a child though) When I am looking for a mate, man, or woman there are certain markers I look for, and he just falls short. Im stubborn, strong willed, and intellect, an artist, philosopher, and yes I was raised by my family to be very warrior /chieftain like, and a mate of mine must be able to keep up with that, and I just feel like...individuals like Allister can't, not without alot of reconditioning, and that's hardly fair, there is nothing worse than having to mold an individual out of who they are, into what you want them to be. I just find it petty and begs to ask " why don't you just take the time and care to find someone one who DOES already fit?.



Zev, I also dont see me being close too. I knew many many individuals like him back in my Uni days, and while I'm glad he's comfortable in his skin, and pretty level headed, and confident. Trust me, I do love a proper rogue as well...( and I mean a REAL skilled rogue, think Solo, Dr Jones, Gambit sorta rogue, not some guy trying to sound suav and failing horridly...It's a hard to master skill very very few males master) etc I also seem to pick up on his " in the long run it's about what makes my life easier" if that means being alittle more submissive, or doing what he wants with little concern for others, it's not something I could see as sustainable for long. He's out to get what he wants, I commend him for that, problem is...I really don't think he knows what he wants.



that's my take on the males at any rate, both have good points, but both have quirks that just wont work with me on anything deeper than a close friend.



I'm wondering now how my spouse will play through, as...yeah I'm a pretty tough on knowing exactly what I want, and need ( dare I say cougar-ish) but Im again the artistic one, the more philosophical, and free flowing...the wife....egh, she's more...well, lets say her standards are much stricter than mine, though similar but with a lot less wiggle room " makes me wonder how the hell I managed to meet the requirements"

[Pulse.01]

I just caught a funny line from Alistairway today that I had not previously heard before. I didn't quite catch the whole gist of it, but it ended up with something like he was going to revert to harsh language...

[Malificis]

MatronAdena wrote...

Again, I will just say, that yes I'm VERY glad that Allister is pretty...unique, to the male roles we see alot. We tend to see more...all brawn and no brain, or we get a crying little emo kid, and he is not in those lines.
When it comes to me " the woman playing the game" he's just not my type. a wonderful guy, and very likely a very close friend. But I could never be with him in the sense that I just...I feel like I would be parenting him quite alot as well. And I already pushed out, and take care of two son's, I don't need a third. ( Im not saying he's a child though) When I am looking for a mate, man, or woman there are certain markers I look for, and he just falls short. Im stubborn, strong willed, and intellect, an artist, philosopher, and yes I was raised by my family to be very warrior /chieftain like, and a mate of mine must be able to keep up with that, and I just feel like...individuals like Allister can't, not without alot of reconditioning, and that's hardly fair, there is nothing worse than having to mold an individual out of who they are, into what you want them to be. I just find it petty and begs to ask " why don't you just take the time and care to find someone one who DOES already fit?.

Zev, I also dont see me being close too. I knew many many individuals like him back in my Uni days, and while I'm glad he's comfortable in his skin, and pretty level headed, and confident. Trust me, I do love a proper rogue as well...( and I mean a REAL skilled rogue, think Solo, Dr Jones, Gambit sorta rogue, not some guy trying to sound suav and failing horridly...It's a hard to master skill very very few males master) etc I also seem to pick up on his " in the long run it's about what makes my life easier" if that means being alittle more submissive, or doing what he wants with little concern for others, it's not something I could see as sustainable for long. He's out to get what he wants, I commend him for that, problem is...I really don't think he knows what he wants.

that's my take on the males at any rate, both have good points, but both have quirks that just wont work with me on anything deeper than a close friend.

I'm wondering now how my spouse will play through, as...yeah I'm a pretty tough on knowing exactly what I want, and need ( dare I say cougar-ish) but Im again the artistic one, the more philosophical, and free flowing...the wife....egh, she's more...well, lets say her standards are much stricter than mine, though similar but with a lot less wiggle room " makes me wonder how the hell I managed to meet the requirements"

i bet you're fat and butch. "very few males", constant attempts to assert your social dominance on a public forum "im the artistic one, the more philosophical", "when im looking for a mate", "raised to be warrior/chieftain like"

sorry couldnt resist.

[PatT2]

To answer the original question. I'd rather have a man who's a tad awkward and bashful, who has never done it because the right woman had not come along...along with the innocence that implies,



rather than



these guys who will "bone" or "bed" or whatever the current term is for thinking only of their own pleasure and having anyone or anything they can get.



Seriously. A man who is "good" in bed has nothing to offer after an hour. Or two. A man who has good personality and wit, someone who can be gentle and still tank a dragon...someone who looks good in massive armor, but gives the woman a rose with a beautiful tale....



Well, you can keep your hour and I'll take the lifetime. Some things (like skill in certain places) can be learned. Being an **** generally isn't ever unlearned. Since one only spends a fraction of their waking time in the sac, I want someone who is pleasant the rest of the time, and I'll teach them what they might lack (and they might even be more interested in learning how to give me pleasure as well).



Besides, great conversation can be shared in restaurants, stores, parking lots, cars in traffic, blah blah.



That's why so many women see Alistair as an interesting pixel companion. That and his voice. And the writing. You men need to look at it from a distinctly female point of view, and while you ask, you often heap scorn on the very things we say we appreciate in other men. Then you wonder why you get to go home alone, or sleep with someone who you'd rather not meet the next morning. Well... so now I've answered the op's question from one female's point of view. Having done both. The Alistair is far more interesting in the morning. (But he does need someone to take care of his laundry, I guess)

[Recidiva]

MatronAdena wrote...

Again, I will just say, that yes I'm VERY glad that Allister is pretty...unique, to the male roles we see alot. We tend to see more...all brawn and no brain, or we get a crying little emo kid, and he is not in those lines.
When it comes to me " the woman playing the game" he's just not my type. a wonderful guy, and very likely a very close friend. But I could never be with him in the sense that I just...I feel like I would be parenting him quite alot as well. And I already pushed out, and take care of two son's, I don't need a third. ( Im not saying he's a child though) When I am looking for a mate, man, or woman there are certain markers I look for, and he just falls short. Im stubborn, strong willed, and intellect, an artist, philosopher, and yes I was raised by my family to be very warrior /chieftain like, and a mate of mine must be able to keep up with that, and I just feel like...individuals like Allister can't, not without alot of reconditioning, and that's hardly fair, there is nothing worse than having to mold an individual out of who they are, into what you want them to be. I just find it petty and begs to ask " why don't you just take the time and care to find someone one who DOES already fit?.

Zev, I also dont see me being close too. I knew many many individuals like him back in my Uni days, and while I'm glad he's comfortable in his skin, and pretty level headed, and confident. Trust me, I do love a proper rogue as well...( and I mean a REAL skilled rogue, think Solo, Dr Jones, Gambit sorta rogue, not some guy trying to sound suav and failing horridly...It's a hard to master skill very very few males master) etc I also seem to pick up on his " in the long run it's about what makes my life easier" if that means being alittle more submissive, or doing what he wants with little concern for others, it's not something I could see as sustainable for long. He's out to get what he wants, I commend him for that, problem is...I really don't think he knows what he wants.

that's my take on the males at any rate, both have good points, but both have quirks that just wont work with me on anything deeper than a close friend.

I'm wondering now how my spouse will play through, as...yeah I'm a pretty tough on knowing exactly what I want, and need ( dare I say cougar-ish) but Im again the artistic one, the more philosophical, and free flowing...the wife....egh, she's more...well, lets say her standards are much stricter than mine, though similar but with a lot less wiggle room " makes me wonder how the hell I managed to meet the requirements"

Oh hell no, there's no way I'd pick Alistair as a mate, not after a few dates.  He'd be relegated to going to go see movies together and sharing popcorn together and would basically be relegated to "gay best friend" status.  I excel at those, the sorta straight relationships where me and some other guy are just busy making jokes all day and would be grossed out at the idea of touching each other, but are otherwise inseparable.

My husband already pissed Alistair off at the first chance he got.

Me:  Oooh, he doesn't like you.
Husband:  He's being a whiny little ****, I told him he was a whiny little ****.
Me:  He doesn't like that, you know.
Husband:  Can't seem to be bothered by that, exactly.

In fact there are several times I've turned to my husband and said "Have I mentioned how much I love how funny, romantic and awesome you are, without being a kicked puppy?  I love that part, thank you."

[Bibdy]

Their choices are Alistair or Zevran...if I was into men, I'd pick Alistair myself.

[Axterix]

Malificis wrote...

I do not wish to take this too far off topic but this is extremely misinformed.
She is an interesting twist on a "femme fatale" and absolutely uses your character by feminine wiles though in context she cannot be stopped from doing so - she has your life in her hands.

No, she isn't. 

Morrigan doesn't do subtle.  She doesn't use your character by feminine wiles, at least, I never got that sense.  She sleeps with you initially because she finds you a good specimen and it'd be fun.  She doesn't manipulate.  She comes out and says what she wants.

Nor does she have my life in her hands, there's other wardens that can do the deed in place of me.  There is no promise of being with her afterwards, instead, she specifically says that this is it regardless.  A femme fatale using wiles would have promised that this way, you could be together or else flat out lied about what the ritual was and get you to sleep with her that way.  And then snuck out and left you during the victory celebration, if not right before the battle started, so as to get a better headstart.  If she wanted to play on your fantasies, she could have easily done that.  But she doesn't.  She just comes out and says I want the child, I'm going away, don't follow me.

So, I see two possiblities there.  Either she's the dumbest femme fatale ever, one without the slightest clue how easily she could manipulate a clueless male or she isn't a femme fatale.  After all, how many of the ladies do the ritual so they can keep their Alistair, even though that means sending tha same Alistair to sleep with Morrigan?  Given that, what sort of idiot, yet supposedly good at manipulating would come out and say "either way, I'm gone."

Compare her against the likes of Jessica Rabbit or say, Sharon Stone's character from Basic Instinct.  You'll see a degree of manipulation in those character that just isn't there in Morrigan.  Morrigan is a barbarian, too forthright to bother deceiving (other than herself about what she is feeling, anyway).  She lacks the civilization, the understanding of human social interaction, to be a femme fatale.

[AtreiyaN7]

1. His humor. I like a good bit of snarkiness, probably why I have a crush on Hugh Laurie's House. *snicker*

2. He's got a good heart & generally wants to do the right thing.

3. For a bunch of polygons, he's pretty handsome.

4. Probably more romantic (however clumsily) than most real guys?

5. His generally goofy charm?

6. He grows up a bit/becomes more decisive if you toughen him up.

7. Steve Valentine's VO work. I like my fictional men with English accents.

[Ballaorf]

Axterix wrote...

Leliana could pull it off.  Probably has in her bardic past.  But Morrigan isn't subtle.

There's no way Leliana could pull it off.  I don't even think she has a bardic past.  At one point, Morrigan said something like "So,Leliana, I suppose you're planning on writing a grand ballad" based on one of the quests we'd just been through.  Leliana's response: "Why would I do that?"  
Maybe I'll change my opinion of Leliana next play through, when I actually pay attention to her more, but, so far, she seems really naive and a little dumb.

As for Alistair... Welp, I gotta say, I'm not entirely surprised.  I don't "fancy" him, but, I'm a male (playing a male PC), and Alistair is BY FAR my favorite character.  The friendship between a male PC and Alistair is just great.  There's the perfect mix of humor, emotion, discomfort about being emotional, support, etc.  When you meet Goldanna, you can stick up for Alistair.  She sasses you and Alistair has your back right away.  
Listening to Alistair's backstory, hearing him talk about the Grey Wardens were his only family...  I don't know, it's just a real great friendship.  He is a very, very well-written and fleshed-out character.

[Taleroth]

Recidiva wrote...

Oh hell no, there's no way I'd pick Alistair as a mate, not after a few dates.  He'd be relegated to going to go see movies together and sharing popcorn together and would basically be relegated to "gay best friend" status.  I excel at those, the sorta straight relationships where me and some other guy are just busy making jokes all day and would be grossed out at the idea of touching each other, but are otherwise inseparable.

I don't know who to pity more.  Your male friends who you've friendzoned so badly or you for not realizing the true nature of your friendships.

I'll side with my brosephs.  My poor poor brosephs.

[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

The Alistair female equivalent would have to be voiced by Carol Kane.

The femme fatale in my description manipulates sex and men for her own purposes.  That's pretty much what I saw.  She manipulated by withholding information and only using it at the crucial moment she knew would arrive.  I don't see how that makes it less valid than knowing which shade of lipstick to wear.  Which she does, by the way.

Actually, about the only manipulation she does is withholding her exact plan.  And that isn't something specific to a femme fatale, any guy would have as well.  Sex she doesn't really use for manipulating either, it is just something to do.

Basically, she's too honest to be a femme fatale.  A femme fatale would have given the promise of more if you did the ritual.  Not promise an end to it, no matter what.

[SarEnyaDor]

Man, Alistair is swoon-worthy.



First, he's funny. Second he's not full of himself, and he doesn't feel he has tro prove himself all the time, he's okay with who he is, even though he may not be as confident as he should be. That is really endearing. Third his character really likes your character, it feels awesome to be liked! Fourth, he takes his vows and his duty seriously. It's nice to think about a guy loving you, only you, and not going to go to the office and hump the first hot secretary that offers.



And finally he is beautiful, and his voice is dreamy.

[Axterix]

Ballaorf wrote...

There's no way Leliana could pull it off.  I don't even think she has a bardic past.  At one point, Morrigan said something like "So,Leliana, I suppose you're planning on writing a grand ballad" based on one of the quests we'd just been through.  Leliana's response: "Why would I do that?"  
Maybe I'll change my opinion of Leliana next play through, when I actually pay attention to her more, but, so far, she seems really naive and a little dumb.

Well, sort of a problem with the Leliana character.  She gives us the frivelous shoe shopper, reformed, spare everyone, and all that.  And we believe it.

But yet she was a bard, supposedly successful, has definitely assassinated people, and her former boss states that the reason she is so good at manipulating is that she loves doing it.  She even throws out a bit about how she somewhat enjoys killing people, wonders if that might make her bad, essentially begging us to comfort and protect her, she the one who is constantly telling us to let people go, to not kill them.  Conviently right after her former boss throws some accussations as to her true nature our way.

In short, the only piece that's missing from the Femme Fatale picture here is her using us for some cause.  Add that to the mix and you could see how easily she's manipulating us.  Doesn't exist though, but that is all it would take.

[Kuravid]

Recidiva wrote...

Deflection is EFFECTIVE though.  He doesn't ever really deflect any direct question, he answers it.  He is just funny about it.  He has good reasons for not disclosing everything about his parentage, and that's really the only time that he conceals anything at all.

And you don't even have to pry it out of him, he comes and tells you when it's relevant.

That is NOT deflection.  

Deflection is "Hey, Alistair, I heard you were heir to the throne"
"Look!  A plane!"

not "Hey, Alistair, I heard you were heir to the throne"
"Look!  A plane!  Well, really, I just wanted you to like me for me."

I was speaking about emotional repression. You can talk about your feelings and your heart's desire all day long if you like, but that won't change the fact that you may or may not be emotionally repressed. It's quite easy for someone to say "this happened" and have no reaction to it at all, because said reaction has been buried deep within them somewhere. Alistair witnesses quite a few horrors throughout the time you know him and he shrugs it all off with either a joke, nothing or an emotional outburst.

I was merely mentioning that, instead of being poorly written, perhaps the developers intended for it to seem like Alistair was disengaging from said scenarios in some way. 

[Recidiva]

Taleroth wrote...

I don't know who to pity more.  Your male friends who you've friendzoned so badly or you for not realizing the true nature of your friendships.

I'll side with my brosephs.  My poor poor brosephs.

I'll be sure to let them know how much they should be pitied over our next movie and popcorn session.  Intimacy isn't always about sex.  Besides, husband says big no on the polyamory since he's a selfish bastard and plans on not sharing.  I've adapted well to the circumstances.  Anybody who doesn't like...popcorn can certainly avoid my company and not suffer having to endure it.

[Taleroth]

Recidiva wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

I don't know who to pity more.  Your male friends who you've friendzoned so badly or you for not realizing the true nature of your friendships.

I'll side with my brosephs.  My poor poor brosephs.

I'll be sure to let them know how much they should be pitied over our next movie and popcorn session.  Intimacy isn't always about sex.  Besides, husband says big no on the polyamory since he's a selfish bastard and plans on not sharing.  I've adapted well to the circumstances.  Anybody who doesn't like...popcorn can certainly avoid my company and not suffer having to endure it.

I'm not speaking in support of sex.  I'm speaking against the idea that they're grossed out at the idea of touching you.  Male/Female platonic relationships are totally possible, but that doesn't mean they don't consider you attractive.

Just, y'know, don't hang around them in lingerie.

Modifié par Taleroth, 01 décembre 2009 - 01:01 .

[Recidiva]

Axterix wrote...

Actually, about the only manipulation she does is withholding her exact plan.  And that isn't something specific to a femme fatale, any guy would have as well.  Sex she doesn't really use for manipulating either, it is just something to do.

Basically, she's too honest to be a femme fatale.  A femme fatale would have given the promise of more if you did the ritual.  Not promise an end to it, no matter what.

"Tis cold in my tent..."

And she's not honest.  Take her up on that deal and she says she has no designs on you and then keeps you from sleeping with anybody else.  Why?  I would be okay if she slept with everyone else.  What's with the pretense of not caring and then being a jealous manipulative wench?

[Malificis]

Axterix wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

The Alistair female equivalent would have to be voiced by Carol Kane.

The femme fatale in my description manipulates sex and men for her own purposes.  That's pretty much what I saw.  She manipulated by withholding information and only using it at the crucial moment she knew would arrive.  I don't see how that makes it less valid than knowing which shade of lipstick to wear.  Which she does, by the way.

Actually, about the only manipulation she does is withholding her exact plan.  And that isn't something specific to a femme fatale, any guy would have as well.  Sex she doesn't really use for manipulating either, it is just something to do.

Basically, she's too honest to be a femme fatale.  A femme fatale would have given the promise of more if you did the ritual.  Not promise an end to it, no matter what.

definitely femme fatale, definitely not honest, definitely manipulative.
sigh no she can say shell end it no matter what because by her mode of thought on survivalism, she cannot comprehend you choosing any other route than bedding her to save your own life, even if you hate her and even if you know thats all youll get out of it - she sees survival and comfort, power as all. she has encountered ONLY one mode of thought until she met the wardens, and that is survivalism and selfishness, essentially.

and she sees you as the one who will kill the dragon identifying you as the one who will do it, not simpering Alistair. she also knows no more grey wardens can be made due to missing archdemon blood and, pre-jailed warden guy, method lost. so yes, she has your life in her hands if you are male.
yes, you're clueless.

Modifié par Malificis, 01 décembre 2009 - 01:06 .

[Krigwin]

I can see the purpose by which Alistair was designed to appeal to a certain crowd, but he's certainly the most unrealistic romance in the game - which of course, makes him perfect for fiction.

[Recidiva]

Taleroth wrote...

I'm not speaking in support of sex.  I'm speaking against the idea that they're grossed out at the idea of touching you.  Male/Female platonic relationships are totally possible, but that doesn't mean they don't consider you attractive.

Just, y'know, don't hang around them in lingerie.

Well, that's true, and I'm sensitive to that and don't enjoy stringing someone along.  Ever.  It's a bad vibe.

However, when I get into the brother/sister zone where what you said just gets us madly laughing with "Eeeeeew!" tacked on and you hailed with a shower of popcorn, I'm comfortable with it.  Said males have perfectly healthy relationships of their own, but perhaps their woman doesn't share a love of zombie movies or say, roleplay games and doesn't really get all of his jokes.  Or won't go on for hours and hours about how awesome Johnathan Coulter is and be willing to sing "All we wanna do is eat your brains!" at a moment's notice.

[Krigwin]

Son of a - double post.

Modifié par Krigwin, 01 décembre 2009 - 01:07 .

[Axterix]

Malificis wrote...

sigh no she can say shell end it no matter what because by her mode of thought on survivalism, she cannot comprehend you choosing any other route than bedding her to save your own life, even if you hate her and even if you know thats all youll get out of it - she sees survival and comfort, power as all. she has encountered ONLY one mode of thought until she met the wardens, and that is survivalism and selfishness, essentially.

But, again, a femme fatale would use the manipulation to seal the bargain.  Femme fatales are not women who say "I can save your life."  That isn't what makes a femme fatale.  Femme fatales are alluring and seductive manipulators, who sucker people to do their bidding with desire.

Seriously, go learn what a femme fatale is.

[Taleroth]

Krigwin wrote...

I can see the purpose by which Alistair was designed to appeal to a certain crowd, but he's certainly the most unrealistic romance in the game - which of course, makes him perfect for fiction.

I dunno if he's the most unrealistic.  There's Morrigan, who's just joining the adventure to get a baby.

Most women like her prefer to go to college for that sort of thing.

[sagevallant]

Axterix wrote...

Ballaorf wrote...

There's no way Leliana could pull it off.  I don't even think she has a bardic past.  At one point, Morrigan said something like "So,Leliana, I suppose you're planning on writing a grand ballad" based on one of the quests we'd just been through.  Leliana's response: "Why would I do that?"  
Maybe I'll change my opinion of Leliana next play through, when I actually pay attention to her more, but, so far, she seems really naive and a little dumb.

Well, sort of a problem with the Leliana character.  She gives us the frivelous shoe shopper, reformed, spare everyone, and all that.  And we believe it.

But yet she was a bard, supposedly successful, has definitely assassinated people, and her former boss states that the reason she is so good at manipulating is that she loves doing it.  She even throws out a bit about how she somewhat enjoys killing people, wonders if that might make her bad, essentially begging us to comfort and protect her, she the one who is constantly telling us to let people go, to not kill them.  Conviently right after her former boss throws some accussations as to her true nature our way.

In short, the only piece that's missing from the Femme Fatale picture here is her using us for some cause.  Add that to the mix and you could see how easily she's manipulating us.  Doesn't exist though, but that is all it would take.

I don't doubt that Lel could manipulate people without much trouble. I do doubt that this is a tactic she would employ, beyond the initial "I'm joining your quest to save the world!" encounter. Because she seemed pretty firm on that. She didn't come to Lothering and stay there for, what, months? years? Waiting to spy on some Grey Wardens who weren't inducted yet during a Blight that hadn't happened yet. She's a person who lived a life of lies and plots, and got fed up with it. Was hurt deeply when she was betrayed by the only one she trusted. Even in the Chantry, by her story, she wasn't exactly well-received.

Despite being a professional liar once, she joins the party at the point where she's looking for some good and real and true. A relationship without lies and deceptions. The one blossom on the dead rose bush, as it were. Follow the romance plot, and it's you