132 réponses à ce sujet

[Silasqtx]

Oh god, enough with Ziggurats already.

[DaJe]

Bioware gave up artistic integrity a few years ago.

[Tazzmission]

[quote]Mercedonius wrote...

[quote]Tazzmission wrote...

[quote]Mercedonius wrote...

[quote]Tazzmission wrote...

[quote]Mercedonius wrote...

[quote]Tazzmission wrote...

[quote]Mercedonius wrote...

[quote]Tazzmission wrote...

[quote]Skelter192 wrote...

[quote]Tazzmission wrote...

[quote]batlin wrote...

[quote]Tazzmission wrote...
did you write or develop mass effect? if not just stop where you are at because if you had no part in the development than you have no reason to say otherwise[/quote]

Are you saying that in order to criticize something you must have had a hand in its creation?

[/quote]

no im saying if you didnt take part in the project at all you are in no way in the right  of demanding the rightfull creator to change a thing

its one thing to critisize but what your asking is pretty crazy and go's against what creative rights stand for

[/quote]

Too bad we're getting something better.

[/quote]

and yet look at other complaints regarding price

so do you think its right that someone has to come into the studio make a new level get some voice actors and have it be free?

i dont care if you payed 60 or 100 dollars because if your asking for them to work for free than im sorry but your crazy and im not saying that to be mean im saying that i think it is crazy to demand something like that


heres another question

are you or anyone else now going to come up with a way to say who is and isnt a gamer  now because they like what they like oposite of you?

ive had people tell me that on this board and even on youtube




[/quote]

Free may be out of the question on a budget/reality standpoint, but it does have merrit since you can argue Mass Effect 3 was falsely advertised; especially since Casey Hudson himself said we wouldn't get an A, B, or C ending.

There is no more obvious contradiction than that. 

If Mass Effect 3 were free I would agree with you but...

Personally, I'm okay with paid ending dlc but that also means I have high expectations which must be met, for a free ending dlc I expect nothing more than an epilogue with text. 

[/quote]

thats the things fans need to not do

fans should never always assume high expectations because trust me i had such a thing for that green lantern movie and well all ill say is i rewrote the whole thing

i was mad and sad but i didnt go as far as to say hey dc i demand you change it let alone say the trailer is false advertising

as a green lantern fan and as much as i didnt like ( i dont use hate) i still love the comics because one film can NOT destroy 40 tears of written lore

[/quote]

To the contrary, I think it is bad consumerism to not have expectations or requirements when I purchase a prodcut. This works differently for different mediums. If I buy a car and the steering doesn't work, I can ask for a refund or replacement. For a movie, the trailers actually can be a good judge for how well the movie is ( atleast in my experience) and movie theaters do offer refunds for disgruntled customers and I am not against that.

For a game neither trailers or demos are often a good measure for what the game is especially when the ending is conscerned and for a story based game this is important. Although I do not think a refund is warranted in this situation for most people since Mass Effect for me and many others was enjoyable up to the ending which definately has value. As a consumer though people should definately voice their opinions on what they liked and what should be changed since this has proven a good method for improvement. Bioware has gone by fan feedback before so I don't see why this should be changed now...

[/quote]

see me as a gamer music lover and movie goer i dont read reviews because i have to judge something for myself

i dont allow myself to go see something based on someone elses opinion

there have been new people on this board asking for advice if they should play me3 or not and i have told them just because i loved it i feel they should rent it because they may or may not like it and they can take it back without losing 60 bucks.

i cant force myself to tell anyone ok this this and this is great and tell them to go buy it

its like people dont go by there own judgment anymore and basicly count on reviews to make that decision for them.

im not saying reviews are bad im just saying dont always use one as a way to make a final decision on something

[/quote]

Yes there is no metric better than judging a product for yourself, but when time and money are involved I simply can't judge every movie or game for myself and have to go by someone else's opinions and/or my judgement of the previews, demos etc. 

This is where it takes practice and refinement to get a metric for yourself by which you can properly judge something. You have to find reviewers and friends whose opinions you trust/respect/agree with generally and research the movie or game you are interested in. Just like you learn in academia you have to cross reference your sources and come up with the best solution with how to spend your time and money for optimal enjoyment. Being a disciplined consumer does take time, energy, and a bit of trial and error but I think it is important in a captalistic society. This however gets distorted when a game gets false advertising and why there is consumer protection laws for this matter.

With regards to Mass Effect 3 there is at least one easily arguable case of false advertising when it comes to Casey Hudson's description of the endings not being an A, B, or C choice.

This falls into a grey area for me since I think a case has to be argued as to how much PR and news articles should be blamed for false advertising, however, I don't think Mass Effect 3 deserves a refund for most people since most genuinly enjoyed till the ending. 

I do think it is within their rights to voice their opinions on the game and specifically whether they want the ending changed or not since this is being a good consumer and how people can better themselves when they recieve contructive criticism. 

I mean if I don't like the ending and you don't like the ending and Bioware can change it, why not? We can't force them it should be their decision but proper discourse between developers and fans can lead to better games which in the bottom line is all we really want. 




[/quote]

ive been vocal alot latley because i feel the people who hate the endings are going to ruin something someone new may like

dont get me wrong im all for protesting if done correctly and civil

some have been but a majority of them have been harsh and that shouldnt be denied

if people really want to protest heres what you do

never involve the fed for starters

law suites dont work

writting letters in a constructive civil manner is good

not buying future dlc is good

now imo for those who feel this strongly on not just bioware but ea and are that much in a protest maybe they should leave the boards also since it is a ea bioware website

thats how you send a message because continuing to basicly trash other posters who want nothing to do with your argument wont get you no where


even if it was 1 or 2 people who demanded the firings of casey and mac imo isnt wanted here either

im saying this not as a mass effect fan but as a gamer but should i or anyone else have to suffer because the take back movment cant just leave and protest somewhere else?

is it fair for me and others to now have to fight tooth and nail and say we arent apart of your group?

you may think it isnt doing damage to the community but it is


i feel now the term gamer is a bad thing because of this mess



[/quote]

Ah this reaches a different point entirely. Really it is unfair to both you and the retake movement and is a problem with protesting in general.

I am sure you agree protesting is important for a free society but the consequences are often noisy and quite annoying. Regular people just want to talk but protestors must have their voice heard and have proper channels to work through which is an incovienence to both parties. 

The only way this can work is if a  compromise is reached which for this stiuation I think is if bioware creates a separate section of the forums and locks any threads created here about the retake movement. 

As for the movement somehow changing the game to be worse than it is.... I doubt it. If bioware was talented enough for mass effect 3 I doubt they can make things worse by rediting the endings and I'm sure that if they did retcon the endings this would be purely optional since they say they do have feedback on people who love the endings. If they clarify the endings then this shouldn't change the dynamic already in place for the game.

No one would be protesting if they didn't think bioware could do better

Bioware has tough decisions to make and a fine line to walk but it is what you sign up for when it comes to making any product. 

For your situation, the only thing you can really do is petition bioware for forum changes or whatever solution you like best and not respond to these threads so you don't have fight people tooth and nail. 

Inconvieniet but that's like I guess : /

Also don't worry for humanity, vocal extreme people on the internet tend to be a minority and everything is far more dramatised than the reality of things. 

It is just a video game after all. 


[/quote]

well to me gaming is a way of life

yes to some it may sound odd and maybe even sad but i have been gaming since god maybe 3 and im 27 now

ill be gaming till im dead honestly

people look to sports as a way of life

some turn to poetry as a way of life


heck even music is a way of life 

gaming is mine because i know im good at it by playing it and story boarding ideas  in my head wile playing on how i can make something that is great even greater


im related to robert lewis stevenson ( treasure island writter) and me when i get an idea cooking i  visualize it in my mind because i have writers block


i have a passion about gaming to where i myself just know i can bring something new and fresh to the table


thats how i see bioware

they are passionate enough to invest into such a rich franchise like mass effect and passionate enough about there fans as well



money or not it takes a big hearted person like ray who is the co founder of bioware to come out and say i listen to the fans and i will have the team give them what they want

it takes a passionate person to do that because so far money hasnt changed him or the devs at all



and the thing is theres alot of companys like treyarch and blizzard who just arent passionate because all they see is money

same with sledghammer games and capcome

to them it isnt passion its all about the money

Modifié par Tazzmission, 22 mars 2012 - 09:17 .

[MegaBadExample]

DaJe wrote...

Bioware gave up artistic integrity a few years ago.

That was when the good writers left, right?

Sorry, sorry. Carry on.

[Yttrian]

Tazzmission wrote...

hey op i have a question

did you write or develop mass effect? if not just stop where you are at because if you had no part in the development than you have no reason to say otherwise

A customer has no reason to criticise a product?

[Tazzmission]

Yttrian wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

hey op i have a question

did you write or develop mass effect? if not just stop where you are at because if you had no part in the development than you have no reason to say otherwise

A customer has no reason to criticise a product?

:sigh: do you even know what critisizing means?

because demanding someone change there work isnt critisizim

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

Silasqtx wrote...

Oh god, enough with Ziggurats already.

They won't listen/understand.

And that one under your post... sheesh.

[Yttrian]

Tazzmission wrote...

:sigh: do you even know what critisizing means?

because demanding someone change there work isnt critisizim

I demand nothing; I dislike the ending and believe it a good financial decision to provide suitable additional content.

[Tazzmission]

Yttrian wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

:sigh: do you even know what critisizing means?

because demanding someone change there work isnt critisizim

I demand nothing; I dislike the ending and believe it a good financial decision to provide suitable additional content.

im just saying in responce to the guy i posted when you chimed in

op says he or she feels they have the right to demand such a change

let me ask you this if you created something you were happy with how would you feel if you had the same situation of people demand you redo your work because being a consumer is more important?


critizing isnt that at all.

Modifié par Tazzmission, 22 mars 2012 - 09:28 .

[Yttrian]

Tazzmission wrote...

im just saying in responce to the guy i posted when you chimed in

op says he or she feels they have the right to demand such a change

let me ask you this if you created something you were happy with how would you feel if you had the same situation of people demand you redo your work because being a consumer is more important?

critizing isnt that at all.

If my finances would benefit I would; while keeping the "old" as a choice.

Art is not beyond criticism.

Modifié par Yttrian, 22 mars 2012 - 09:32 .

[Elk Cloner]

The PLC wrote...

Well, the publisher is paying for the game to be released.

And of course, players get to play that game for free...

[Rickin10]

Bioware and artistic integrity. Hmm. ME3 was hardly what you'd call pure artistic expression. There was a clear calculated move to appeal to the masses, which is in direct conflict with the idea of ones artistic vision.

[justlogme]

Tazzmission wrote...

batlin wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...
did you write or develop mass effect? if not just stop where you are at because if you had no part in the development than you have no reason to say otherwise

Are you saying that in order to criticize something you must have had a hand in its creation?

no im saying if you didnt take part in the project at all you are in no way in the right  of demanding the rightfull creator to change a thing

its one thing to critisize but what your asking is pretty crazy and go's against what creative rights stand for

   Thats just silly.
  If you go to a burger place you can't ask them not to put kecthup on it because you didn't create the hamburger?
  If your go to get tires put on your car you can't specify what type of tire because you didn't make the tires, or you can't even expect the tires put on right because your not doing the instalation/repair job?

 ME3 is a video game. It is not a a picture or sculpture one can see completely before deciding to buy. Once Bioware starts advertising they are selling ART instead of games then we can start  grading them and treating them  as art dealers.
   Note we all paid for ME3 so we have a right to express our feeling (preferably in a civil way) Yes bioware could go into the ART business. There are plenty of starving artist in the world suffering for their art to keep them company.

[Lux]

True. Business decisions overwhelmingly trump artistic integrity. It happens all the time with games during development and crunch time. But it's suddenly taboo when consumers call them out on artistic shenanigans made to comply with a deadline and an allocated budget.

Modifié par Merkar, 22 mars 2012 - 09:41 .

[Yttrian]

Rickin10 wrote...

Bioware and artistic integrity. Hmm. ME3 was hardly what you'd call pure artistic expression. There was a clear calculated move to appeal to the masses, which is in direct conflict with the idea of ones artistic vision.

Art is not beyond criticism; so whether it is or is not is completely irrelevant.

The only way forward is to make the case for it being a financially sound decision, either through free DLC restoring "customer faith" or directly via paid DLC.

Modifié par Yttrian, 22 mars 2012 - 09:42 .

[Rickin10]

Yttrian wrote...

Rickin10 wrote...

Bioware and artistic integrity. Hmm. ME3 was hardly what you'd call pure artistic expression. There was a clear calculated move to appeal to the masses, which is in direct conflict with the idea of ones artistic vision.

Art is not beyond criticism; so whether it is or is not is completely irrelevant.

I never said art is beyond criticism.  I'm simply stating that in the light of this conversation, i.e. whether it's ok for fans to 'demand' change to a developers vision, it's pointless because that vision was motivated by more than pure art.  

[Tazzmission]

justlogme wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

batlin wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...
did you write or develop mass effect? if not just stop where you are at because if you had no part in the development than you have no reason to say otherwise

Are you saying that in order to criticize something you must have had a hand in its creation?

no im saying if you didnt take part in the project at all you are in no way in the right  of demanding the rightfull creator to change a thing

its one thing to critisize but what your asking is pretty crazy and go's against what creative rights stand for

   Thats just silly.
  If you go to a burger place you can't ask them not to put kecthup on it because you didn't create the hamburger?
  If your go to get tires put on your car you can't specify what type of tire because you didn't make the tires, or you can't even expect the tires put on right because your not doing the instalation/repair job?

 ME3 is a video game. It is not a a picture or sculpture one can see completely before deciding to buy. Once Bioware starts advertising they are selling ART instead of games then we can start  grading them and treating them  as art dealers.
   Note we all paid for ME3 so we have a right to express our feeling (preferably in a civil way) Yes bioware could go into the ART business. There are plenty of starving artist in the world suffering for their art to keep them company.

again if you go to a burger place and they screw up what do you do? you go to the person above that worker wich is managment.

if a manager isnt there you go to corporate

you dont go file a complaint to the ftc or start a law suite if someone didnt give you mustard on your burger


now when it comes to mass effect 3 just like the burger analogy


you go to bioware with your complaint

if that dosent work

you go to ea since ea basicly is above bioware

if ea dosent do anything thats when you go ok who do i go to thats higher than them?

it isnt just omg bioware is this evil enity

theres a chain of command for a reason

Modifié par Tazzmission, 22 mars 2012 - 09:56 .

[Zunzun]

If EA calls for a change in the game, Bioware will comply. May it be an ending where space travel is now achieved by riding pink space unicorns because the mass relays were destroyed.

Why ? Because EA's the one paying them. And they're not artist who may have a better artistic vision than us, they're businessmen only thinking about sales.

And since the customers are the ones paying EA, they're just as entitled to ask for changes. Because when such a united movement raises, we may actually impact sales.

Sales > Art, period.

[Sezarious]

Tazzmission wrote...

hey op i have a question


did you write or develop mass effect? if not just stop where you are at because if you had no part in the development than you have no reason to say otherwise

You good sir have no right to comment either unless you are one of the developers and if so guess what?  This game may be ART but is also a PRODUCT.  We can DEMAND whatever we want.

Bioware doesn't HAVE to change it, but they will for their MONEYTEGRITY.    In the end they want $.  They are a company more than a bunch of artists

[batlin]

Sezarious wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

hey op i have a question


did you write or develop mass effect? if not just stop where you are at because if you had no part in the development than you have no reason to say otherwise

You good sir have no right to comment either unless you are one of the developers and if so guess what?  This game may be ART but is also a PRODUCT.  We can DEMAND whatever we want.

Bioware doesn't HAVE to change it, but they will for their MONEYTEGRITY.    In the end they want $.  They are a company more than a bunch of artists

Pretty much.

[user1234567890]

I think the integrity of the developer can be thrown out the moment the developer isn't able to throw out the publisher. Right now it seems as if, the bigger the publisher, the more it's the other way around, but I can't know for sure.

In the end, the developer can just add a paid download link onto their website. So wtf? Why products seem half-assed so often? It's not like I'm not going to pay for more awesome. It's that there's less and less awesome. The whole market has been overflown by Chinese products with lead paint DLCs.

Modifié par user1234567890, 22 mars 2012 - 11:11 .

[batlin]

user1234567890 wrote...

I think the integrity of the developer can be thrown out the moment the developer isn't able to throw out the publisher. Right now it seems as if, the bigger the publisher, the more it's the other way around, but I can't know for sure.

In the end, the developer can just add a paid download link onto their website. So wtf? Why products seem half-assed so often? It's not like I'm not going to pay for more awesome.

Consumers can't be thrown out either. Without them, neither the developer nor the publisher can make money.

Modifié par batlin, 22 mars 2012 - 11:12 .

[user1234567890]

batlin wrote...

user1234567890 wrote...

I think the integrity of the developer can be thrown out the moment the developer isn't able to throw out the publisher. Right now it seems as if, the bigger the publisher, the more it's the other way around, but I can't know for sure.

In the end, the developer can just add a paid download link onto their website. So wtf? Why products seem half-assed so often? It's not like I'm not going to pay for more awesome.

Consumers can't be thrown out either. Without them, neither the developer nor the publisher can make money.

The publisher might be useful to get big amounts of money for a project, but this approach also imposes unnecessary, destructive constraints as in tighter deadlines because of contracts etc. You may assume the team is competent enough to "plan and deliver", but that's utopia or a rare occurence. Especially due to changing staff members.

There are still many examples where the power of the social internet renders this "waterfall" product development approach absolutely obsolete. Just look at any small project one-man-dev hits. Look, they FIRST made a friggen demo and then listened how everyone hates it to adjust their direction. If you say "too much risk for a big company with such approach", I say "that's what it takes to prevent gigantic corporations who eat the hell out of you." A company goes bust to make room for others. But somehow, everyone happily keeps **** afloat. I don't mean Bioware. I mean this ultra-high **** acceptance level in the demographic.

And... what? They didn't even try to optimize ME3 for PC? I better learn to drive a boat and vomit man-babies during seasickness than play at a FOV of 50.

Okay, I needed to vent. I had no expectations, just to be clear. I'm just hurt that games don't move on with my age. There's literally nothing to play (aside from chess and the like). And, damn, I used to play the hell out of Quake 2, 3, UT and such, but you grow out of that. All the devs have abandoned me (except a few like Bethesda - I can still enjoy brain splats with game dumbness turned down to minimum).

Modifié par user1234567890, 22 mars 2012 - 11:47 .

[cocla]

I may have missed something, but I havent seen anything about EA telling Bioware to change the ending.

Could someone post a link to where ever this was stated?

[user1234567890]

cocla wrote...

I may have missed something, but I havent seen anything about EA telling Bioware to change the ending.

Could someone post a link to where ever this was stated?

If someone caught that idea from my post, then, NO. That's not what I meant. Move along.

Modifié par user1234567890, 22 mars 2012 - 12:05 .