132 réponses à ce sujet

[thehomeworld]

I change my artwork sometimes to appeal to people's taste other then my own so I'm compromising my artistic creativity? Not really and if a customer says change this then they're compromising my creative integrity? Wow digital artist must need therapist to deal with all the creative integrity they're being forced to give up when their client says change this. The argument is BS BW is changing the ending because they want their game to be remembered for the total package is great not the ending sucks.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 22 mars 2012 - 05:36 .

[batlin]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

I'm just curious. In your quote, isn't that the same Gabe Newell that fans were ripping on for being fat? Not for making bad games, or games they don't like, or anything like that... but because he's fat?

Yeah, that sounds like an EXCELLENT group of people to try and cater to in every way possible. 

Give me a break, Gabe himself makes fun of his weight. AND he apparently understands better than most in the video game industry how to handle PR. Furthermore, he has never falsely advertised what a Valve game would be. That's why Valve has a reputation for putting out consistently good (albeit slow-developed) games.

[Habs25]

OP - it's a completely different relationship, it's a comparison that makes no point

[batlin]

Habs25 wrote...

OP - it's a completely different relationship, it's a comparison that makes no point

A different relationship how? If an artist makes some art, why does it matter from whom demand for change is made? Both publishers and cutomers contribute to a developer's revenue, so again, the only difference here is that publisher demands are forced on the developer while customer demands aren't. So which is more dangerous to "artistic integrity"?

[NOD-INFORMER37]

batlin wrote...

But when fans demand changes in a game, it "violates artistic integrity"?

The only difference I see here is that publisher demands force changes while fan demands have no real influence.

I agree, while there is a different relationship with the publisher and with the fans, its still not right to say changes made by fan demands "violates artistic integrity" while any changes forced on by the publisher is just fine. If anything its the opposite, the publisher's changes are really only for more $$$, they couldnt care less about the game itself. The fans on the other hand actually care about the game and want it to be the most fulfilling experience it can be.

But still, I wouldnt say fans have "no real influence". Bioware(and other companies) has listened to their fans which actually shaped the series. Just look at the FemShep trailer or Tali/Garrus romance for example.   

Modifié par NOD-INFORMER37, 22 mars 2012 - 07:53 .

[TheJiveDJ]

Pretty much this. You lose your artistic integrity the moment you sign your life away (exclusively) to a publisher. I work in the music industry and this happens all the time unless you can reach a non-exclusive deal. In this case BW is fully owned by EA and the word of EA is the law. Artistic integrity, right.

[Oldbones2]

I'm sorry, is someone from the Retake movement pointing a gun at Casey Hudson't head?

Did his family get kidnapped? Has his bank account been emptied.?

No one is forcing Bioware to DO anything. If Bioware is willing to stomach the fan backlash and loss of revenue that will come from keeping the endings, nothing and no one is standing in their way.

The fact that Bioware wants to have it both ways. (Keep their artistry AND get lots of money) is what is driving their decision to make changes now. That's on Bioware. No one from the movement has done anything more than very forcefully voiced their opinion and discontent.

[Edje Edgar]

Because you totally have the right claim total fanloyalty when you create something they dislike. That's not entitled at all.

[batlin]

bump

[Takamori The Templar]

Thats your publisher right here.

[batlin]

Takamori The Templar wrote...

Thats your publisher right here.

Good god...this is worse than I expected. I never heard this before

[Takamori The Templar]

That's why Bioware games decayed in quality so much.
Having a policy like this, they don't praise quality anymore.
Rehashes everywhere gentlemen, that's the CoD audience they seek.
They are mindless idiots who want more of the same without innovation , say no to this, vote with your wallet against it.

[lokiarchetype]

Habs25 wrote...

OP - it's a completely different relationship, it's a comparison that makes no point

They're the exact same, actually

"I'm providing your funding, you should listen to my input"

One provides the initial investment to allow production, the other provides the return on investment to allow future production

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 mars 2012 - 09:08 .

[Texansamurai]

Baher of Glory wrote...

Artistic integrity is fine, if the artist just gave some general pointers about his next work, e.g.
"In ME 3 you will finally fight the Reapers. You must rally all species in the known galaxy, otherwise..."

But they gave us specific promises, like
"In Me 3 you will
1)...
2)...
3)...
etc."

amd - not only in my opinion - delivered something totally different - of course only in regard of the endings.

That has nothing to do with said artistic integrity. It's more like a painter who promised to deliver a portrait and you get a painting with your original body but with Donald Duck's head.
I'd feel a bit pranked.

lol i like your donald duck analogy

[Mars8309]

Tazzmission wrote...

batlin wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...
did you write or develop mass effect? if not just stop where you are at because if you had no part in the development than you have no reason to say otherwise

Are you saying that in order to criticize something you must have had a hand in its creation?

no im saying if you didnt take part in the project at all you are in no way in the right  of demanding the rightfull creator to change a thing

its one thing to critisize but what your asking is pretty crazy and go's against what creative rights stand for

Did you forget already? Didn't Bioware say that the fans and gamers are "co-creators"  of ME3? or was that a lie?

[batlin]

Mars8309 wrote...

Did you forget already? Didn't Bioware say that the fans and gamers are "co-creators"  of ME3? or was that a lie?

Wouldn't have been the first time, unfortunately.

[AxisEvolve]

Tazzmission wrote...

hey op i have a question


did you write or develop mass effect? if not just stop where you are at because if you had no part in the development than you have no reason to say otherwise

You imply that publishers write and develop games. I guess record labels record their own music now too. 

Modifié par AxisEvolve, 22 mars 2012 - 11:02 .

[Dude_in_the_Room]

I agree. The publishers are going to change things with relevance to money, where as fans would change things with relevance to everything else.

Generally speaking.

[DVZ]

"Artistic integrity" doesn't trump plot integrity.

[I TV Casualty I]

"So when a publisher demands changes in a game, it's totally ok..."

No. No it isn't.

The difference being the developer IS REQUIRED to listen to the publisher because the publisher is footing the bill to actually create the project.

I can guarantee you that there were at least a few changes that EA required BioWare to make that they were less than happy to implement...

[Godzillla]

Mercedonius wrote...

Funny how no one truly contemplates what artistic integrity truly entails, just how idealistic it is, and what is actually done in reality.

I want to see a panel of philosophy majors, artists, scientists (theoretical and experimental), and engineering majors discuss the definition, truth, and viability of artistic integrity. Would be a worthwhile discussion since the term is thrown around alot with little thought in this situation.

i have a fine art degree with a concentration in visual communication and a minor in philosophy , and now im working as a designer at an advertising firm


and i can promise you ..in the marketplace there absolutely is no artistic integrity ..there are only forces, that if strong enough, affect change 

I TV Casualty I wrote...

"So when a publisher demands changes in a game, it's totally ok..."

No. No it isn't.

The difference being the developer IS REQUIRED to listen to the publisher because the publisher is footing the bill to actually create the project. 

I can guarantee you that there were at least a few changes that EA required BioWare to make that they were less than happy to implement...

...facepalm...and where do you think publishers get the money to foot these bills ? 


people act like mass effect was free and completely motivated by passion for the universe and story 

Modifié par Godzillla, 22 mars 2012 - 11:17 .

[I TV Casualty I]

Godzillla wrote...

I TV Casualty I wrote...

"So when a publisher demands changes in a game, it's totally ok..."

No. No it isn't.

The difference being the developer IS REQUIRED to listen to the publisher because the publisher is footing the bill to actually create the project. 

I can guarantee you that there were at least a few changes that EA required BioWare to make that they were less than happy to implement...

...facepalm...and where do you think publishers get the money to foot these bills ? 

Stockholders, although that's beside the point.** Fans have already paid for the game; they're free to dislike the ending, but they have very little right to demand a new ending. BioWare is free to take pity on their fans to ensure satisfied customers that will return their brand. That just so happens to be the case in this instance (and, if I were to take a wild guess, I would venture to say that publisher pressure played a hand in that as well).

Anyway, point being, BioWare doesn't have to listen to their fans. If they don't listen to fan outcry, they might lose customers. They don't listen to EA, they will get future funding pulled. One is more drastic than the other. That's all I was saying.

In my opinion, it's never ideal (as in not "totally OK") for an artist to be presurred into changing their original vision, but them's the breaks. The game industry is still an industry, and sometimes money has to speak louder than artistic vision. Judging from your above post, I'm fairly certain we both agree on that.

I personally don't like it, but that's just how it is.


**EDIT:  This was intended to be a cheeky joke, but it doesn't come across very well now that I'm reading it over again...

Modifié par I TV Casualty I, 23 mars 2012 - 12:25 .

[Olueq]

Tazzmission wrote...

hey op i have a question


did you write or develop mass effect? if not just stop where you are at because if you had no part in the development than you have no reason to say otherwise

Still trying to deffend these endings? Try doing a better job lmao.

[overbite]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Oh good, I get to wake up and see someone saying that video game development is akin to prostitution.

Because that's not stupid AT ALL.

actually it is.

i remeber reading an article featuring richard garriot in it a question was asked if they ever took feedback from fans and richard said nope ,but there was this one fan that use to write every year and would say how awful the game was made and how it could be improved and would send them a check so when a game was made they would deliver it to the person house.

which they did send a copy of whatever game was being made.

richard said he enjoyed fans like that because even though they never took the person advice ,atleast that person cared enough to reply via mail except losing interest and not replying at all..

i can gurantee though if people slacked off with purchasing then they would have change focus and asked how to better serve there customers.

but like richard said if people "complained" then they knew they were doing good.

as in if they actually didn't like it then they wouldn't be complaining  they simple wouldn't say anything or care enough not too purchase the game.

Modifié par overbite, 23 mars 2012 - 12:25 .

[Dude_in_the_Room]

overbite wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Oh good, I get to wake up and see someone saying that video game development is akin to prostitution.

Because that's not stupid AT ALL.

actually it is.

i remeber reading an article featuring richard garriot in it a question was asked if they ever took feedback from fans and richard said nope ,but there was this one fan that use to write every year and would say how awful the game was made and how it could be improved and would send them a check so when a game was made they would deliver it to the person house.

which they did send a copy of whatever game was being made.

richard said he enjoyed fans like that because even though they never took the person advice ,atleast that person cared enough to reply via mail except losing interest and not replying at all..

i can gurantee though if people slacked off with purchasing then they would have change focus and asked how to better serve there customers.

but like richard said if people "complained" then they knew they were doing good.

as in if they actually didn't like it then they wouldn't be complaining  they simple wouldn't say anything or care enough not too purchase the game.

That makes no sense at all.