807 réponses à ce sujet

[Phategod1]

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

[LilyasAvalon]

You can change art you know, just saying.

[Nefelius]

Tell that to Doyle and Fallout 3 team.

[Dreogan]

Nonsense. They abdicated their artistic vision when they slapped together the tripe they threw together at the last minute, shoved it into a box, and shipped it unfinished.

If artistic vision were their concern, we would've had consistency throughout the narratives of ME1, 2, and the ending of 3. This is not what we got.

Modifié par Dreogan, 22 mars 2012 - 08:37 .

[TheRisenStar]

That Charles Dickens, what a sellout he was. He endangered conventional storytelling forever!

[Karrie788]

You're using an old argument, so I'll use old counter arguments. You know who had to change a particular event of his novels? To unkill his main character? Arthur Conan Doyle. And said character was Sherlock Holmes. Would you say that was a bad decision?

I myself truly believe games are art. They have a wonderful capacity for storytelling, being interactive. But that's just the thing : they're interactive. In that way, the story also belongs to us. Besides, Bioware has stated numerous times they were creating the story with the fans. That's how, for example, we got the romances with team dextro.

If an ending is bad, I have the right to dislike it. If it's full of plotholes, lack of closure, and goes against everything the developers have promised, I sure have the right to ask for a better ending. They may not listen. But I have the right to voice my opinion.

This is not unprecedented. Bethesda was humble enough to recognize the ending to Fallout 3 was rubbish and changed it. Bioware can do the same if they judge that the fans may have a point. The ball is in their camp.

[Dusty Arne]

Totally agree OP,

Now i just hope they are not 'altering" the end, but release more information about "why" they did it like they did.

I dont want Bioware to be forced in to a road they wern't planning to go.

[Turbotanden]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And if I am correct then the ending (so far) is beautiful and brilliant.

[prmsntrcrps]

So, if an MMO had a huge design flaw (eg. the world pvp zone in SWTOR upon release) we should all just shut up and accept it for artistic integrity instead of caring enough for the product to make the developers see their mistake?

I want ME3 to be the very best it could have been. If that is wrong, I really don't want to be right.

[moater boat]

I missed the part where you conclusively explain what art is and then explain why video games don't meet that definition.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

[LilyasAvalon]

Dusty Arne wrote...

Totally agree OP,

Now i just hope they are not 'altering" the end, but release more information about "why" they did it like they did.

I dont want Bioware to be forced in to a road they wern't planning to go.

Pfft, **** that, they made it CLEAR why they did what they did in Final Hours.

"Speculation for EVERYONE~"

That's why we want it in a DLC, so people have the OPTION.

[alx119]

Again, I'm sorry that freedom of speech bothers you so much OP. People is in their rights to complain, and as costumers to demand something better.

If you go to a restaurant and they crap in your steak, you ask for another one.

[linsanity]

when the Mona Lisa was xray'd artists dicovered multiple mouths under the finished work, some were smiles and some were not. art can become better with revision and reworking.

That said, I dont feel comfortable with Bioware talking about artistic integrety at this time. Its clear they dropped the ball badly. The ending is ridden with plot holes and breaks so many promises Bioware made to us regarding choice. They have compromised themselves here.

Last not least. This is a mass marketed product. calling it art is a compliment but not legally accurate.

[Lebrine]

except mass effect isnt art, its a game? if they wanted to make mass effect art they wouldve made it a film right?
and i'm sure they wuldve made the game look a bit prettier too ^^

Would you be happy if you brought an awesome painting only to find that they promised to give it an awesome seal, then they actually didnt, and your painting peeled to the extent that you no longer enjoyed it?

[Quietness]

 and you need this as well i guess... i mean of course who can remember all those director cut movies and post-ending dlc... anyways onto our show:





Video games, art or not, are created with the intention of selling to a consumer. The consumer has every right to critique the product they receive. Mass Effect 3 was not art for art's sake, it was art produced to be consumed. Many argue that asking for a different ending sets a bad precedent, and asking the artist to alter their work is inappropriate. Historically speaking this is not uncommon in art or setting any precedent good or bad. The precedent has already been set. Lets look at some examples: 



Great expectations by Charles Dickens: At the end of the original version Pip meets Estella on the streets, who has remarried after her abusive husband has died. Pip says that he is glad she is a different person now from the coldhearted girl Miss Havisham reared her to be and that "suffering had been stronger than Miss Havisham's teaching and had given her a heart to understand what my heart used to be." Pip remains single. Following comments by Wilkie Collins that the ending was too sad, Dickens rewrote the ending so that Pip now meets Estella after the death of her husband in the ruins of Satis House with the suggestion that they will marry. Early 20th century writers including John Forster, George Bernard Shaw and George Orwell felt that the original ending was "more consistent with the draft, as well as the natural working out of the tale"; modern literary criticism tends to support the more common second ending. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Expectations 



Sherlock Holmes novels by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: Wanting to devote more time to his historical novels, he killed off Holmes in "The Final Problem," which appeared in print in 1893. After resisting public pressure for eight years, the author wrote The Hound of the Baskervilles, which appeared in 1901. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes 



Little Shop of Horrors the film: The original conclusion to the off-Broadway musical was filmed and preferred by Frank Oz the director and the majority of the actors. However, test audiences disliked how Audrey and Seymour, the main protagonists, were both killed by the evil alien plant, and the ending had to be re-shot so that their deaths were removed. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_ending 



Some of the world's greatest artists changed their work or others changed it after they finished because the consumer demanded it. The infamous "fig-leaf campaign" of the Counter-Reformation, aiming to cover all representations of human genitals in paintings and sculptures, started with Michelangelo's works. To give two examples, the marble statue of Cristo della Minerva (church of Santa Maria sopra Minerva, Rome) was covered by added drapery, as it remains today, and the statue of the naked child Jesus in Madonna of Bruges (The Church of Our Lady in Bruges, Belgium) remained covered for several decades. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo 


The music industry's "clean versions" are in response to consumer demand. These are just a few of the many examples of "art" that was changed because of consumer demand. The argument that gamers are being "entitled brats" is hardly truthful or relevant. 


Truthfully these "entitled gamers" may be entitled to a more satisfying ending. This entitlement has been created by Bioware itself. 


Mike Gamble (Associate Producer): “And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway.” www.computerandvideogames.com...issing-in-me2/ 


“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…” http://www.360magazi...erent-endings/ 


Casey Hudson (Director): “For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations.” http://www.gameinfor...-effect-3.aspx 


“Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.” http://venturebeat.c...ans-interview/ 



One could argue that gamers are "entitled" to an ending based on these statements made by the producer of this piece of "art". 


TL;DR Saying a new ending sets a bad precedent for games as an art form is incorrect. Art has been changed based on consumer input for centuries. Gamers are entitled to a different ending more in line with what Bioware itself promised.

[iorveth1271]

^ This.

The fact that the Bioware developers fed us false information about what would be in the game in tons invalidates every single sentence of your argument.

Modifié par iorveth1271, 22 mars 2012 - 08:43 .

[Aznable Char]

this article is also rather relevant on the whole question of "art" and "change"

http://kotaku.com/58...ng-for-the-fans

[kidbd15]

This again? There are so many other threads.... I've been preaching this (artwork on the way), rushed art is not art... Bioware rushed the ending due to time constraints (see final hours iOS app)... You don't rush these things, and if you have a time to fix this, please do... Also, 16 endings? Where are they??

[Chuvvy]

Phategod1 wrote...

1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in

Phategod1 wrote...Your the ones I am disappointed in

Phategod1 wrote...Your

Oh irony, you strike again.

Modifié par Slidell505, 22 mars 2012 - 08:44 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Tell that to Heinlein and Huxley.

[MeatShieldGriff]

 It's the fact Mass Effect has that value there has been such an outcry.  It's like he painted the Mona Lisa and for his finishing touches he took a green brown color and splashed it all over her face.  Fans aren't the 16 year old loudmouth whiners you think they are.  Especially if they're donating over $60,000 to charity just to be heard.

[JunMadine]

Art is a statement. When you sell art it becomes a product. As a product consumers have a right dislike it and return it if they so choose. If the artist changes the art to satisfy the consumer then it is still the artists work but it is still a product. for sale.

[Elyiia]

Artistic integrity doesn't apply in this situation. In terms of a painting: We commissioned and paid for Bioware to make a painting, the painting didn't fit what was agreed upon (what we were promised) and so we were dissatisfied. If this were the case we'd tell them to go back and fix the painting. This is what is happening.

[zenoxis]

We gave them our money based on promises they made to us. We have every right to demand a better ending. Also see Star Wars (original trilogy) for changes made to a product that has already been released for more information on why this kind of thing has happened already and isn't going to destroy society as we know it.

You're welcome. 
/thread

Modifié par zenoxis, 22 mars 2012 - 08:45 .

[alx119]

I find curious how all the people that start threads like these never reply in them. I've only seen a few actually rebate the arguments made against them, they weren't exactly right, but I respect their sense of bravery.