You do realize that not all paintings get sold right? It's not like everyone who ever painted a picture became successful at it. Some art is golden, some are aweful. The fact that Hudson dropped the ball (maybe) on this one, and us wanting him to fix it doesn't mean the game isn't art, it means that he should create a new piece of art that will be better recived.
Congratulations You have ruined conventional; storytelling in games for the future
Débuté par
Phategod1
, mars 22 2012 08:33
Retour en haut
#227
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:52
Ulmont
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Ah. The "Games are art, and art shouldn't be changed" argument. I must admit, every time I see someone make this argument (this means you, Colin Moriarty), I roll my eyes in exasperation. As someone who has worked on numerous indie games and mods for the past five years, it bothers me when people who have little to no experience actually making games pull the, "The game must never be changed in any form after its released" argument. This argument is nonsense - cue Bethesda's "Broken Steel" DLC. But lets say we're going to ignore this perfectly good example of how a game's ending can be modified, and decide to focus more on the quasi-philosophical question of whether or not games are art. The answer is simple - they're not. A videogame isn't a work of art - its a performance; just like any live reading or musical concert (only not, its a game, and is vastly more complex in every way - however for the sake of generalization this will suffice). If the performance is botched in some way, the performers usually fix this. Normally all of the flaws in a performance would be ironed out in the development process, in beta testing (rehersals, essentially), and in the final stretch before the game goes gold. Sometimes, however, things don't go according to plan, and must be fixed after the performance. Hence - patches. And sometimes, the audiance asks for an encore. Hence - DLC & Expansion packs. And sometimes the audiance throws rotten fruit, and the performers have to re-evaluate their performace, and fix what outraged the audiance.
TL;DR
Games are not art, they're performances to an audiance.
TL;DR
Games are not art, they're performances to an audiance.
#228
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:52
DESTRAUDO
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Thanks for assigning an opinion to me but no. I would not class the current ending as profound. I would actually consider it cold, calculated scientific. However it does reflect perfectly the themes in 3. People do not get that. I do not understand why.
Also i am totally for the ending being given a polish to clarify the choices and show the consequences of them, just not change those consequences or add a magical happy unicorn ending.
Also i am totally for the ending being given a polish to clarify the choices and show the consequences of them, just not change those consequences or add a magical happy unicorn ending.
Dreogan wrote...
DESTRAUDO wrote...
Because as i said, it would create a jarring change of tone at the end of the game. You seem to think you should have the happy happy choice.
Tell me.
Where was the happy happy choice in ME1 when you had to choose between kaiden and ashley?
Where was the happy happy choice in Arrival DLC where you got to warn the batarian colony and allow them to escape?
Where was the happy happy choice in ME3 where you got to cure the genophage and keep mordin alive?
Where was the happy happy choice in ME3 where you got to resolve the geth war without losing legion and tali?
What you see in ME3 rather beginning in arrival dlc in earnest but grounded in the foundation of the choice in ME1 is that there is not always an optimal scenario. If anything players were spoiled with the ability to resolve disputes perfectly between squadmates in me2. You should have had to pick your sides in those fights and had to deal with it.
So yeah, in a game full of situations where you are not given an optimal choice, you want an ending that gives a happy happy optimal choice. Why stop at the ending. They should rewrite ALL the priority missions to give you a rediculous happy scenario if you keep blindly hammering the paragon button. And why stop there, they should also rewrite ME1 to remove the need to choose between kaiden or ashley. Everyone is happy!
Simply put. No.
Aweus wrote...
Oh. My. God. Not. Again.DESTRAUDO wrote...
In polls half the people demanded a lalala happy ending. They will never get it. I hope they never get it.
People have given examples of times in the past when artists have had to cave. That does not make those examples a good thing.
Take a poll of how many people would want LEON in the movie LEON to live at the end. I guarantee you if it came to a majority vote they would have to ruin the ending of leon.
Take a poll of how many people think it would be better if simbas dad in lion king had not died. Bam. classic ruined forever.
Take a poll of how many people would have wanted arnie to live at the end of terminator 2. classic ruined forever.
Take a poll of how many people want Danny to die at the end of american history X. classic ruined forever.
Take a poll of how many people want maggie to die at the end of million dollar baby. classic ruined forever.
All the people who would demand changes to those endings could pull out the line that artists need to be humble and change according to feedback but the result would still ruin the tone of all of those movies.
Bioware have stated they will try and clarify the ending while keeping their artistic integrity. The tone at the end of mass effect ranges from bleak to optimism depending on your choice. They cannot throw in a happy happy lets party ending that 50 percent of people want without divorcing the tone of the end of the game from everything that happened in the previous 40 hours.
It would be like having the happy happy dance ending of fantastic mr fox at the end of saving private ryan. It would be like having a jovial bar scene at the end of empire strikes back.
They wont add that unicorn ending if they have an ounce of dignity and the fact they say they will be aiming to preserve artistic integrity shows they wont. They will add more clarity to the current ending. If people are very lucky they will add a prologue that shows an optimism for the future through a determination to rebuild.
Seriously. Aside from the fact if happy ending is what you, me or anyone else wants. How is presence of OPTION of such ending in the INTERACTIVE VIDEO GAME ruins in any way experience of someone who finds such ending appaling? You may never ever see it by yourself if you wish so. Please, explain me. Pretty please, let me understand.
Or they could stick with their idea not to have a happy ending, then rewrite it so the damn thing makes sense. I don't care what they do, as long as they fix it.
And for the love of sweet baby starchild, don't even think about going down the path of "it's too profound." We've beaten, slaughtered, beaten it some more, ground it into burgers, and packaged it for easy consumption at any time of the year, that horse many times before.
#229
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:53
Aweus
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No why? Becouse you say so. You have same right to have an opinion as I do. Why your is better?DESTRAUDO wrote...
Because as i said, it would create a jarring change of tone at the end of the game. You seem to think you should have the happy happy choice.
Tell me.
Where was the happy happy choice in ME1 when you had to choose between kaiden and ashley?
Where was the happy happy choice in Arrival DLC where you got to warn the batarian colony and allow them to escape?
Where was the happy happy choice in ME3 where you got to cure the genophage and keep mordin alive?
Where was the happy happy choice in ME3 where you got to resolve the geth war without losing legion or tali?
What you see in ME3 rather beginning in arrival dlc in earnest but grounded in the foundation of the choice in ME1 is that there is not always an optimal scenario. If anything players were spoiled with the ability to resolve disputes perfectly between squadmates in me2. You should have had to pick your sides in those fights and had to deal with it.
So yeah, in a game full of situations where you are not given an optimal choice, you want an ending that gives a happy happy optimal choice. Why stop at the ending. They should rewrite ALL the priority missions to give you a rediculous happy scenario if you keep blindly hammering the paragon button. And why stop there, they should also rewrite ME1 to remove the need to choose between kaiden or ashley. Everyone is happy!
Simply put. No.
None of your choices you presented as examples are concerning endings of the game. Mordin death was great, I loved Mordin and I loved this scene. Same with Thane. I was fine with them dieing although in no way I would protest if Bioware added OPTIONS to keep them alive. I would probably still sacrifice Mordin becouse I found this scene to be very touching but that would be my CHOICE. Using your naming convention, both ME1 and ME2 had happy happy ending options despite many losses suffered on the way. I dont feel that ME3 gives me any sort of ending even remotely happy. Not only happy. Even worth the effort. For me those endings had almost same outcome as would had an ending where we just allow Reapers to harvest everything. I am not even asking for HAPPY HAPPY ending (although again, I am not against such option, why are you against OPTIONS for the love of God?) but at least for something that would make me feel like it was all worth it and make me want to replay ME3 or maybe even ME1,2,3. After completing ME3 I dont have any motivation whatsoever to touch any of ME games. And all I ask for is an OPTION for some ending that you will never even witness since you would probably find it horrible. For me current ending is horrible. Keep it for yourself and be happy with it, I dont mind. Why do you mind that I also get another option is beyond me.
#230
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:53
Phategod1
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Killer3000ad wrote...
Yet another misguided individual makes a thread designed to aggravate people, then when they point out how wrong he is, he's nowhere in sight to answer them.
Again I never expected this thread to blow up this fast sorry it took me as long as it did to respond.
#231
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:54
Mavaras
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darkshadow136 wrote...
agathokakological wrote...
Phategod1 wrote...
What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole.
When Leonardo da Vinci was paid to do a piece of art, he did what his patrons asked him to do. Many, many times he completely redid entire pieces of art to fit the paton's request. Are you saying that this corrupted the intrinsic artistic value of his work?
When Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wanted to finish writing Sherlock Holmes stories, and his fans mutinied for him to write more, simply because they didn't want it to end, he wrote more stories. Are you saying that these stories, because he never intended to write them before his fans demanded it, are not canon to Sherlock Holmes, on artistic grounds?
Finally, when Bethesda launched the Broken Steel DLC pack, which included not just a new ending that revived the main character, but an additional 10-20 hours of content that they had not planned pre-launch, did this soil the artistic integrity of video games forever and set a bad precedent?
If you answered no to any of these questions, then the question becomes, how is this any different?
I love that we have people on here that have read their history, instead of trying to re-invent it. great statement. +100
Lol, you gotta love the punctuation in history. Da Vinci. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Bethesda. Bioware.
#232
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:54
Irx
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Its just a sophistry.
So you can call something "art" and is instantly immune to it being crap and any objective criticism, really?
Appealing to art is a lame excuse, nothing more.
So you can call something "art" and is instantly immune to it being crap and any objective criticism, really?
Appealing to art is a lame excuse, nothing more.
#233
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:55
azerSheppard
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Wait wait games aren't products? As soon as there is a price on it, it becomes a product, the OP does not seem to understand how economy works. I suggest reading up on capitalism and it's merits.
True art is not for sale, it exists, simply to express the creators opinions and feelings.
True art is not for sale, it exists, simply to express the creators opinions and feelings.
#234
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:56
Electric Pig
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All I want is an ending that makes sense and gives me some closure after over 4years of following this series.
I couldn't give a crap about "artistic value", the fact your willing to put up with such an horrible ending out stands me.
The fact that Bioware is listening to the fans on this one is a good thing. A very good thing. It shows that they CARE, which is a helluva more important thing then bloody "artist integrity".
I couldn't give a crap about "artistic value", the fact your willing to put up with such an horrible ending out stands me.
The fact that Bioware is listening to the fans on this one is a good thing. A very good thing. It shows that they CARE, which is a helluva more important thing then bloody "artist integrity".
#235
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:56
AlexanderHO85
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The OP might have been a 100% correct, if the game was for free.
If bioware gave us ME 1,2 and 3 for free we wouldnt have any valid argument to respond to the ending.
But everything changes when they charge money for it, they made a game to sell, not because they wanted to give people a nice story with a bad ending.
If bioware gave us ME 1,2 and 3 for free we wouldnt have any valid argument to respond to the ending.
But everything changes when they charge money for it, they made a game to sell, not because they wanted to give people a nice story with a bad ending.
#236
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:57
Sanrei
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Artists withstand critique and criticism. It is how they grow. It is how the work they produce does not fall into mediocrity or just get plain bad.
If Bioware was constantly told: Oh, it's ok, you were just being artistic, here's a flawless review.
Do you really think they have any incentive to improve?
No.
From an artistic point of view, the ending does not fit. If each game in the series was a set of several different gorgeous paintings, all with a common theme, but each one different as well in its own way, the last ten minutes of the game a painting on its own, that painting would not hold up to the rest of the paintings in the set. Anyone with a good eye for art would tell the person that to remove that painting or change it would be the only way to keep it with the rest of the paintings, otherwise it would weaken their exhibit as a whole. EDIT: And you know what, we aren't trying to take your ending away from you. We just want the option for one that makes sense and was promised to us. You don't follow the same formula/theme for almost three whole games and then derail the train and call it artistic.
If Bioware wants to fall back into the flimsy excuse that it was an artistic decision, then they need to understand that that opens them up to criticism, and not just the condescending constructive kind.
And another thing, I'm sick of people in support of the game being rude and insulting to everyone who was let down by the ending. It's great that you like it. Let Bioware know and go chat about it. Talk with people who don't like without insulting them like a child who shouldn't be playing this kind of game. Maybe try to understand why they don't like it instead of using it as an opportunity to boost your ego. Attacking us and calling us entitled and selfish must be great for your self esteem, but that doesn't make it true.
If Bioware was constantly told: Oh, it's ok, you were just being artistic, here's a flawless review.
Do you really think they have any incentive to improve?
No.
From an artistic point of view, the ending does not fit. If each game in the series was a set of several different gorgeous paintings, all with a common theme, but each one different as well in its own way, the last ten minutes of the game a painting on its own, that painting would not hold up to the rest of the paintings in the set. Anyone with a good eye for art would tell the person that to remove that painting or change it would be the only way to keep it with the rest of the paintings, otherwise it would weaken their exhibit as a whole. EDIT: And you know what, we aren't trying to take your ending away from you. We just want the option for one that makes sense and was promised to us. You don't follow the same formula/theme for almost three whole games and then derail the train and call it artistic.
If Bioware wants to fall back into the flimsy excuse that it was an artistic decision, then they need to understand that that opens them up to criticism, and not just the condescending constructive kind.
And another thing, I'm sick of people in support of the game being rude and insulting to everyone who was let down by the ending. It's great that you like it. Let Bioware know and go chat about it. Talk with people who don't like without insulting them like a child who shouldn't be playing this kind of game. Maybe try to understand why they don't like it instead of using it as an opportunity to boost your ego. Attacking us and calling us entitled and selfish must be great for your self esteem, but that doesn't make it true.
Modifié par PedEgg, 22 mars 2012 - 10:02 .
#237
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:57
kalasaurus
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People voicing their concerns over a product is hardly ruining conventional storytelling in games. I wouldn't have been so bothered if their "artistic vision" wasn't so contradictory to what we were told to expect.
16 distinctly different endings, not the same ending but in different colors. Even if they put some massive thought into it, it still comes off as outrageously cheap and rushed.
I want them to change the ending because it ruins the beauty of the Mass Effect universe they gave me. I've read the books, comics, and played the games. I loved them all, and this epic conclusion does none of it justice. In fact, it destroys any appeal Mass Effect has. Not just for me, but for a large percentage of their fanbase.
I'm not a part of the "Take Back" or "Hold the Line" movements, but I'm not going to fault them for wanting fix the ending. They have every right to do so.
If Bioware doesn't change the ending, then fine. It's their decision to do so. As far as I can tell, no one is threatening to kill them over it. If there are death threats, then it's only a small minority of angry fans. Like, a handful.
16 distinctly different endings, not the same ending but in different colors. Even if they put some massive thought into it, it still comes off as outrageously cheap and rushed.
I want them to change the ending because it ruins the beauty of the Mass Effect universe they gave me. I've read the books, comics, and played the games. I loved them all, and this epic conclusion does none of it justice. In fact, it destroys any appeal Mass Effect has. Not just for me, but for a large percentage of their fanbase.
I'm not a part of the "Take Back" or "Hold the Line" movements, but I'm not going to fault them for wanting fix the ending. They have every right to do so.
If Bioware doesn't change the ending, then fine. It's their decision to do so. As far as I can tell, no one is threatening to kill them over it. If there are death threats, then it's only a small minority of angry fans. Like, a handful.
Modifié par GlassElephant, 22 mars 2012 - 09:58 .
#238
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:57
Yttrian
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1) Art is not beyond criticism.
2) A customer can complain about a product.
3) A corporation should act according to it's consumers wishes for it's financial best interests.
4) Ad hominem detracts from an argument.
List of main fallacies:
2) A customer can complain about a product.
3) A corporation should act according to it's consumers wishes for it's financial best interests.
4) Ad hominem detracts from an argument.
List of main fallacies:
- Ad hominem.
- False analogy.
- Argument from authority.
- Argument from ridicule.
- Slippery slope fallacy.
Modifié par Yttrian, 22 mars 2012 - 09:58 .
#239
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:57
avmf8
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Dusty Arne wrote...
Totally agree OP,
Now i just hope they are not 'altering" the end, but release more information about "why" they did it like they did.
I dont want Bioware to be forced in to a road they wern't planning to go.
They better be I don't care if they planned to screw over people like me they did. That casey guy specifically said it would not be a A B or C ending but then made the very thing he said he would not make. Obviouslly then his road was to lie to people. When you lie there should be consiquences. They should have to remake the ending. Casey and that other guy should bassically pay everone else at bioware to remake the ending since they did a terrible job.
They are supposed to be professional writers. I expect them to make a better story than I can make. If the stories I can make in my head are better then theirs why am I paying them exaclty? That ending was so bad I should have shut the game off at the run to the conduit part. then thought of a better ending in my head.
If conventional story telling in games contains bad endings them I am glad it is changing. Good riddance to bad rubbish I say.
#240
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:58
Catroi
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oh look a troll...
Here have a cookie =)
Here have a cookie =)
#241
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 09:59
Wikkr
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i wouldnt have had a problem with their 'artistic vision' IF it diddnt directly contradict what they promised us in the run up to release of the game
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2
Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”
“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”
hudson directly states he wouldnt do an ABC ending. but that is EXACTLY what we got with this red green blue crap. where was the player choice they promised? it may be 'art' but it is art that was produced with certain conditions placed on it by promises the 'artists' made. Imagine if instead of the mona lisa as it was Davinci had painted her in a clown costume. do you think hed have been paid for that?
what weve done is hold them to the promises they made pre release. maybe next time theyll reconsider trying to do some smart arse deus ex style artistic ending after promising us something very different for the months building up to release
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2
Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”
“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”
hudson directly states he wouldnt do an ABC ending. but that is EXACTLY what we got with this red green blue crap. where was the player choice they promised? it may be 'art' but it is art that was produced with certain conditions placed on it by promises the 'artists' made. Imagine if instead of the mona lisa as it was Davinci had painted her in a clown costume. do you think hed have been paid for that?
what weve done is hold them to the promises they made pre release. maybe next time theyll reconsider trying to do some smart arse deus ex style artistic ending after promising us something very different for the months building up to release
#242
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 10:00
agathokakological
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Genuinely lol'd! in a good way.AlexanderHO85 wrote...
The OP might have been a 100% correct, if the game was for free.
#243
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 10:00
Madecologist
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Everyone ones the positive piece of the pie, which is making money. But some don't want the negative piece of the pie, accountability to the consumer. A product that fails the consumer, be artistic or not, will have to face the music that follows.azerSheppard wrote...
Wait wait games aren't products? As soon as there is a price on it, it becomes a product, the OP does not seem to understand how economy works. I suggest reading up on capitalism and it's merits.
True art is not for sale, it exists, simply to express the creators opinions and feelings.
#244
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 10:00
Phategod1
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HenchxNarf wrote...
Machines Are Us wrote...
HenchxNarf wrote...
Quietness wrote...
HenchxNarf wrote...
Quietness wrote...
HenchxNarf wrote...
I agree with you, OP.
And i will ignore any and every piece of information that will counter the point and just agree with you blindly.... im sorry but what?
You have your opinion and I have mine. Get over it. I wasn't even talking to you.
LOL " i agree with you OP" is opinon. What i posted was fact... Historical Fact....
I agree with what they posted. I don't feel the need to go into an elaborate reason as to why I agree. Nor do I have to explain myself to you.
You don't, but if you are not willing to back up your argument, then why should any body listen to you, or care what you have to say?
If you want to join a debate, then giving reasons behind your opinions is pretty much standard.
I personally agree that this is not a good thing in many ways. By agreeing to do something to change the ending they are opening the door for other people to do the same with every single game they dislike.
However, I also think it is almost entirely Bioware's fault for creating an ending that does not make any sense whatsoever. They can hardly claim they didn't have the time, the money or the staff. They have all three in abundance.
I agree with the OP because this would be a very bad move for BioWare (and any company that does this, really) because it would give people the false sense of entitlement to demand change to anything they don't like, now storytellers won't be able to tell the stories they want to tell for fear people will demand them change it.
It's not your story, and just because you pay money for the game, it does not give you the right to demand them to change it. You can not like it all you want, be displeased and complain. But that doesn't give you the right to demand a company to change something they spent years working on just because a hand full of fans whine about how they don't like it.
Being a consumer doesn't give you executive rights over something.
This person get what I'm saying in a nutshell and said it in a more concise manner thank you.
#245
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 10:00
sargon1986
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Im sorry but are we supposed to shut the hell up and buy everything game companies throw at us and force ourselves to like it? That would be even worse. Much worse.
You cant create crap and say its art and that customers SHOULD like it. Its YOUR job to satisfy your customers. If you failed at it (like Bioware with ME3 ending) you can lose them. There would be no gaming industry without the players.
You cant create crap and say its art and that customers SHOULD like it. Its YOUR job to satisfy your customers. If you failed at it (like Bioware with ME3 ending) you can lose them. There would be no gaming industry without the players.
#246
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 10:01
Mad-Max90
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What if their "art" looks like somebody smeared **** on what would have been a great painting, that I'd love to buy but due to the **** stain marring the image, I don't want to, is it not within my rights to ask that they simply remove the **** from the painting before I purchase it, because over the phone the artist promised me there would be no **** on "my" painting that I'm buying
#247
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 10:02
ComfortablyNumb
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Dusty Arne wrote...
Now i just hope they are not 'altering" the end, but release more information about "why" they did it like they did.
And if they will be able to explain the endings and not have to use "space magic" - they will deserve a Nobel prize...
#248
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 10:03
soull2
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Does anyone else think it’s funny that the OP’s name is Phategod? Anyone? Just me? Ok!
#250
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 10:04
Berkilak
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The Mass Effect franchise is essentially the Mona Lisa with Trollface's smile plastered on. It doesn't belong there, even if the original artist put it there. It is indefensible. It is inconsistent. It is inexplicable. And to change it to something more suiting only improves it.
Modifié par Berkilak, 22 mars 2012 - 10:04 .
