807 réponses à ce sujet

[krayt298]

zenoxis wrote...

We gave them our money based on promises they made to us. We have every right to demand a better ending. Also see Star Wars (original trilogy) for changes made to a product that has already been released for more information on why this kind of thing has happened already and isn't going to destroy society as we know it.

You're welcome. 
/thread

Indeed.

[Hibernating]

OverdrivenI wrote...

 This 'artistic integrity' argument is getting very old.

Simple fact...artists in every genre make changes and edits to their work, either because they are not happy with it and have been pressured into it by publishers (prime example with movies) or because the fans have not liked it.

- Books are often released with new edited editions later as feedback is received and new editors take a look.
- A huge number of movies are released with directors cuts. Ever see Kingdom of Heaven? The cinema release of that was not very good and didn't do that well. The directors cut took it to a whole new level with much more depth of story (sound familiar) and is now very well received.
- Artworks are often redone, touched up and changed as they go along before an artist is happy about it. They will often also receive feedback from people they know as it progresses.
- Bands generally listen to fan feedback and write new albums taking this into account. If an album was ****, didn't do well in the charts and had fans moaning, then they will try their best to remedy it with their next.

Works of art are fluid in nature. Not static. They can be changed and games are no different. Particularly with the advent of DLC and with the majority of players having easy access to the internet. There is no reason not to change them as time goes a long. It is not damaging in any way. It can simply help them grow.

What he said

[DemonsSouls]

 
http://social.biowar.../index/10446892

My thoughts on this... topic.

Modifié par DemonsSouls, 22 mars 2012 - 01:07 .

[Cosmic_Cruton]

For the record, I didn't dislike the ending, I just feel that Mass Effect is so epic in scope that it deserved the most epic ending it could achieve, and I think that it's popularity betrayed it's conclusion in the end. I prefer to see these complaints less as an abusive shout towards Bioware and more a testimant for the love people have for the series.

Having said that, I haven't been forthright with the "Take Back Mass Effect" movement because, well firstly I didn't entirely dislike the ending (yes, I'm the minority) and also because I don't feel I have a right to demand Bioware to change it. I'm a fan, it's their IP, just because I like something doesn't mean I have the god given right to make it change. My fandom didn't come from my ideas, it came from theirs.

Having said that, the Retake Mass Effect movement have done wonders in donating money for Child's Play, it just goes to show how much people are willing to raise for those less fortunate over something they're passionate about. I also have to give Bioware credit for listening to their fans, regardless of how heart breaking it is to hear people slam your work (I used to be a script writer and animator for some Newground flash animations, so I know how hard it is to hear).

[xxskyshadowxx]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

People change art all the time. Ever complete commissioned art yoursef? No? I have...oh and some of it had to be changed before I was paid.

The whole concept of "Waaaah! The art in gaming will be ruined if Bioware changes their ending because of YOU!" is flawed because game developers have already changed endings based on consumer outcry in the past, and lo and behold the game industry and it's artistic charm didn't crash and burn. These "DOOM" posts just confuse me.

"TV, Movies, Books don't change their tune after release, blah blah" is also invalid. Those mediums change their work BEFORE release, based on peer and consumer response. TV shows and movies and peer and consumer panels and how they react, results in what comes to pass in the final edit and it can also result in completely rewritten, refilmed scenes. Authors will often rewrite portions or even ALL of a book, sometimes multiple times after having completed their artisitc vision and before it's released, based on advanced reader feedback, peer feedback and publisher feedback. You can bet if an author did not follow his/her own lore's continuity...or it was even thought that they didn't the publisher would require a rewrite before the product was published for sale.

Game developers do not follow this process at all. You get what you get and no one gets to put in any input until after the product is released and paid for. Not only that, but game companies are able to falsly represent the content of the product prior to it's release. That's not okay and it's the primary cause of the backlash Bioware is dealing with now. Demanding what you paid for based on the claims the company made is NOT "entitlement," it's responsible consumer behavior. It's both the consumers' right and obligation to call the company out on this. It's one of the basic principals of capitalism and how it functions properly at it's core. Acting irresponsibly and not calling them out on it is more damaging than anything else. That is NOT to say that people have the right or obligation to threaten the folks behind the product. 

To use this term "entitlement" that's been thrown in the ending-detractors' faces over and over again. Demanding what you were promised as a consumer is not entitlement. If anyone is entitled it is the game companies because they currently can misrepresent their product, collect payment for it, and get away with it without repercussion...until now. If game companies take anything away from this, it's not that they can't be creative with their work, etc., it's that they MUST be honest about the product that they have created before it is presented for sale to their consumers.  

[Heather Cline]

I don't believe we've actually ruined conventional storytelling in games. Bioware has stated time and time again that the game has been co-developed between them and the fans. It has been designed around the fans and their feedback. Calling it art and saying the game should be left as is, is an insult to everyone. Both who like the ending and those who hate the ending.

We were PROMISED 16 very different endings depending upon our choices from ME1, ME2 and the game play of ME3. Did we get what we were promised? NO we did NOT.

We were PROMISED deep and engaging romances. Did we get those? NO we only got a couple of deep engaging romances while others were sidelined or given the short end of the stick. Also the romance scenes for the Traynor/FemShep and the FemShep/Liara one broke the immersion factor by several degrees.

We were PROMISED that there would be NO auto-dialogue in the full RPG experience and the Story based experience. Did we get what was promised? NO we did not.

I could go on and on. We were promised a lot and the game failed to deliver. Bioware failed to deliver and this is why we are vocalizing our discontent, our anger, our rage, our disappointment.

If you want art go to a art museum and look at a painting or a sculpture. That is art. That is art that cannot be changed. Video games are an interactive media with some art to convey the media itself. It is not just art in and of itself it is a media that conveys an idea that is interactive and allows for changes and additions to it.

[Renew81]

To Op.

Its work in progress they add to it with dlc as well , so bs in my opinon
that it cant be touched.

Since you use the "art" statement , ile use the "false advertisement'' one
iam sure you love that one.

in my opinion its a product ,that there trying to sell , they made argueable
statements before the release luring people in , but eventually sold
a product that was not finished.

If you dont like that fine , i dont like your opinion either
so lets just agree to disagree.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

Movie endings are changed all the time due to focus group test screenings, publishers often send authors suggested changes in manuscripts and books, that alone invalidates the who "artistic integrity" excuse right there.

Way to over  react, "destroy story telling in games?" Really? Things in games get changed all the time, either via DLC, or Retcons (seem to recall BW doing a few of these in ME3) The ending didn't make sense, people complained loud enough, hopefully it gets changed or amended for the better.

Do yourself a favor, put down the bioware flavored kool aid, And step back and think about what you wrote there. I think you're a bit too invested in Bioware's "artistic integrity" Because really if anything, they affected their own intergrity by putting forth an ending to a 3 game trilogy be it due to a scramble to cover a asset leak or a rush to meet a shipping deadline that totally goes against what the series was all about, Player choice affecting the world around them, and instead shoehorned an  A, B, or C, scenario that ignores 99.9% of player choice and totally ignores what Shepard as a character stood for.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 22 mars 2012 - 01:15 .

[SinnSly]

Heather Cline wrote...

I don't believe we've actually ruined conventional storytelling in games. Bioware has stated time and time again that the game has been co-developed between them and the fans. It has been designed around the fans and their feedback. Calling it art and saying the game should be left as is, is an insult to everyone. Both who like the ending and those who hate the ending.

We were PROMISED 16 very different endings depending upon our choices from ME1, ME2 and the game play of ME3. Did we get what we were promised? NO we did NOT.

We were PROMISED deep and engaging romances. Did we get those? NO we only got a couple of deep engaging romances while others were sidelined or given the short end of the stick. Also the romance scenes for the Traynor/FemShep and the FemShep/Liara one broke the immersion factor by several degrees.

We were PROMISED that there would be NO auto-dialogue in the full RPG experience and the Story based experience. Did we get what was promised? NO we did not.

I could go on and on. We were promised a lot and the game failed to deliver. Bioware failed to deliver and this is why we are vocalizing our discontent, our anger, our rage, our disappointment.

If you want art go to a art museum and look at a painting or a sculpture. That is art. That is art that cannot be changed. Video games are an interactive media with some art to convey the media itself. It is not just art in and of itself it is a media that conveys an idea that is interactive and allows for changes and additions to it.

^ This

I agree with Heather 100%!

[Midarc2nd]

Mass Effect has never really been conventional story telling.
Consider the following

Story telling is an action with a passive audience.
The tale is directed and determined by the teller.
The listener is passive.
If the story teller throughout asks what the listeners think should happen next and then acts upon this by shaping the tale thusly, then the story is interactive.
The story teller has given up a degree of control, but in doing so created something more alive, vibrant and dynamic.
You're no longer just the passive listener.
You're a participant.
Part of the story.

To end upon such a modal change was bound to cause upset.

Anyway.
My point being.
Bioware has never been conventional in it's storytelling.
Good thing too.
It's one of their strongest points and one they should be proud of.

[JulienJaden]

Dreogan wrote...

Nonsense. They abdicated their artistic vision when they slapped together the tripe they threw together at the last minute, shoved it into a box, and shipped it unfinished.

If artistic vision were their concern, we would've had consistency throughout the narratives of ME1, 2, and the ending of 3. This is not what we got.

Also, what is an editor's work before a book is for sale? Look for **** that doesn't make sense and doesn't belong in there, and tell them what might be better.
While that may include censorship of violence or sex scenes (which may be exaggerated, depending on the editor), what we can agree on is that, for books (or, more generally speaking, stories) there are things that are objectively bad; there are standards, things that every editor could agree on (no matter how conservative or liberal they are [not speaking politics here]).

That's what we're basically doing. We're telling BioWare: "Oy! This ending is stupid and messes up the story! You should fix it." And since we aren't editors but consumers (since, apparently, everybody who's job it would have been to do something like that, did look at the product from start to finish or doesn't know the previous games), we use our money to add weight to our opinion.

So: We've had several people who are working on and with stories for a living analyzing the story and pointing out why exactly it is, objectively, terrible. There's loads and loads of fans who know the lore and who made one valid point after the other why it doesn't work because established facts contradict it.

Is it BioWare's decision whether to fix it or not? Absolutely. But does "artistic integrity" mean that valid, constructive, detailed criticism can not be heeded? Absolutely NOT (and this is coming from me as a writer).

Modifié par JulienJaden, 22 mars 2012 - 01:15 .

[Machazareel]

Rockpopple wrote...

The stupid here burns brightly enough to blow up a Mass Relay.

In your posts, most definitely. I'm utterly amazed how there are still people who haven't quite grasped that a happy ending is not the goal of most of the people asking for change.

[Kai212]

**** OFF.

[kookie28]

Sherlock Holmes laughs at you OP.

[Ziggeh]

Phategod1 wrote...

What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

What you don't understand is that a video game is not a movie, book or other form of entertainment. 

Video games are a unique medium, with an interactive experience. The characters you inhabit in videogames, and the stories they undergo, generally in gaming but most specifically within Bioware RPGs are a collabrative process. Both you and the creator have various levels of input into who they are and the actions they take.

Neither has total control over the end result.

Now creating replacement content due to popular demand is something different, certainly, but still doesn't fall outside of a collaborative process between the creator and it's players. 

[MystaisPC]

From Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity

Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes.

In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions.

Integrity can be regarded as the opposite of hypocrisy, in that it regards internal consistency as a virtue, and suggests that parties holding apparently conflicting values SHOULD account for the discrepancy or alter their beliefs.

Modifié par MystaisPC, 22 mars 2012 - 01:24 .

[Drakonis63]

So I got my wonderful "art" DVD Mass Effect 3 box. I hung it up on the wall but something didn't seem right, it just hung up there with a big N7 logo. Hmm not a very nice piece of art to hang on the wall.

Okay I took out the DVD and put it in my DVD player, but it wouldn't play on the TV. Hmm, okay I put it in my DVD on the desktop. Oh I I got a screen telling me to push a button to continue. Oh now its asking for my input to continue. Ah I see this game actually needs MY input and MY choices to continue. So without me giving some input and choices the game will just hang on the wall or not play at all on my computer. Yeah I don't know why people would complain about something that was promised to them.

Does the OP feel the same way about all DLC. I mean why would a developer add extra DLC to their finished game. Where is the artistic integrity. I guess its okay to abandon artistic integrity and add something to their "complete" masterpiece for more money.

[Scoob]

Machazareel wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

The stupid here burns brightly enough to blow up a Mass Relay.

In your posts, most definitely. I'm utterly amazed how there are still people who haven't quite grasped that a happy ending is not the goal of most of the people asking for change.

You're amazed that they do exactly what their Bioware wants them to do through their PR statements and their aide from places like IGN? Ignore the things we say, yell something about art, then attack us for giving to charity and then telling us we ruined gaming. These people are so mad, yelling at us for being whiners.

LOOK at yourselves haters, 90% of the community here hates the endings, a majority of those people, a VAST majority, has been civil, providing documents, video's, writing letters and essays, and in the meantime what are you doing?

Telling us we are the worst fans on the planet, for giving a damn about the hundreds of dollars and hours and energy we put into this franchise, making it a success? That we are entitled when we notice obvious plot errors and leaps of logic? That we are stupid for wanting Bioware not to lie to us about what kind of games they we making, the choices, that relationships, the freedom, the so called amazing, diverse endings?

Seriously, it should be YOU people who should be ashamed, for caring so little about the games you play to let them get worse and worse, yet ignore those issues with "it is art" suddenly, which has nothing to do with what we say or want. A good way to finish this trilogy can be art too. The endings were made by ONE person and not the other writers, that is not art that is unfair..

Modifié par Scoob, 22 mars 2012 - 01:21 .

[MrFob]

Cosmic_Cruton wrote...

For the record, I didn't dislike the ending, I just feel that Mass Effect is so epic in scope that it deserved the most epic ending it could achieve, and I think that it's popularity betrayed it's conclusion in the end. I prefer to see these complaints less as an abusive shout towards Bioware and more a testimant for the love people have for the series.

*snip*.

You my friend meed to be given a medal for that paragraph alone. Because that is exactly how it is.

As for the rest of you pot (which I just snipped because I wanted to emphsize that first part), I may disagree with you but I can see where you are coming from. Happy for you to have enjoyed the ending and I am glad, people keep it all in perspective. Cheers.

[Lexica]

I just want to say over they years products have been changed due to people bringing up issues Highlander 2 has had Zeist stuff removed / changed in some cuts Neon Genesis Evangelion has been reworked add to for fans over the ending and other issues this is not a new problem it has happened before and will again.

[Ville L]

Sorry but Mass products ment to appeal to large audience isn't art., Mass Effect lost that times ago even before they released the first one. Everything has been changed lot of time and I bet nearly nothing looks like the artists visualized in beginning. Also the lead writer of ME hasn't even been part of it since the first game.

[Aesieru]

As I already stated, the new story-plotline that Mass Effect 3 was taking is based 100% off of an anime or is at least 100% a carbon copy of it. Any argument of artistic integrity flies out the window once you realize that.

[Mastermadskills]

LOL

OP got screamed off the forums because his argument is so terribad.

[Phategod1]

Myskal1981 wrote...

I'd like to see the writers or the team in general defend their artistic integrity against publishers that want to rush them to release a product with the same fervor as they are defending it right now against the players.

Is there any concrete irrefutable proof that this game was rushed?