807 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaktathi]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

Mass effect has always been about co-creation. Bioware themselves have said this. The existing player-developer paradigm that reigned from ME1 until the last 5 minutes of ME3 broke down with the ME3 ending, the artistic vision was already broken.

Additionally, video games are art as a product, they exist to satisfy a demand. The art is in how the product does that. If it fails to satisfy that demand, it fails as a work of art, and should be changed if it wishes to remain relevant.

[Phategod1]

Mastermadskills wrote...

LOL

OP got screamed off the forums because his argument is so terribad.

Nope still here.

[Aesieru]

Not sure how the OP is still discussing things, he has pretty much ignored every comment that proves him entirely wrong, but that's normal I guess.

[AntiDave]

I hate to break it to you guys but you are all posting in a troll thread. He has been trying to pull this same thing off other boards as well. Just stop feeding him.

Modifié par AntiDave, 22 mars 2012 - 01:29 .

[NikitaDarkstar]

Phategod1 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

I'd like to see the writers or the team in general defend their artistic integrity against publishers that want to rush them to release a product with the same fervor as they are defending it right now against the players.

Is there any concrete irrefutable proof that this game was rushed?

There is concrete, irrefutable proof that the original ending was leaked at the last minute and had to be changed. (Doesn't go well with "artistic integrity" by the way. If it was about that they wouldn't have cared and released anyway.) There's conrete, irrefutable proof that the part that was changed didn't hold up to the same quality as the rest of the game and the consumers were not happy with it.

[Myskal1981]

Phategod1 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

I'd like to see the writers or the team in general defend their artistic integrity against publishers that want to rush them to release a product with the same fervor as they are defending it right now against the players.

Is there any concrete irrefutable proof that this game was rushed?

I kept it as general as possible, I did not refer explicitely to ME3. Just wanted to point out that artistic integrity is nice if it fits your goals, in this case defend against fan backlash. Many other times artistic integrity is left at the side if it means more money and success. Either it is always important or it is never important, can't have both. That shows lack of integrity in general...

And regarding ME3: From Ashes DLC, so part of it is on the disc, the rest is developed while main game is in QA? That looks a bit rushed to me.

[Gedgehog]

Mass Effect is a good example of modern pop culture. I wouldn't class it as art so much, but a mass media entertainment platform, yes. That isn't to say that it isn't artistic, but the very fact that Bioware are writing the story with us, puts it out of the art category. We are consumers and writers.

[Zohrdan]

Phategod1 wrote...

 if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole.

Actually I have the feeling that EA already did that part. 
The Ghost-Boy feels like it was added late in game by some Media-"Expert" fresh from universety, to add emotion and give the loses on Earth a face which doesn't work at all for anyone I have spoken to.

Cutting Javik from the game and selling him for extra $$.

Modifié par Zohrdan, 22 mars 2012 - 01:36 .

[SirCrimz]

The ending looks rushed. If this is true then the "artistic integrity" has already been invalidated. This happens in a lot of games where they run out of resources or time.

The fact that the their original idea of the ending (made between Drew and Casey) was cut also adds to the invalidation. It's when corporations get their hands on a game that you realize every game in some way has had their artistic integrity ruined.

Modifié par SirCrimz, 22 mars 2012 - 01:38 .

[ArkkAngel007]

What a childish way to start your argument OP.

Anyways this isnt the first occurrence in video games where parts of the game are changed due to feedback. Fallout 3 a prime example. Heck, there was a whole new Dead Rising game invalidating the second game because fans wanted the original lead.

Artistic integrity doesn't mean what the artist has done is set in stone. It means that artists do what they do in their medium and accept the feedback of their audience. They don't have to react to that feedback if they don't want to. That is artist integrity.

BioWare made the choice to do further work on the game by their choice. They could have refused, and I know many that wouldn't. Obviously they have something that retains whatever vision they had for the endings, or they wouldn't do this.

[milkymcmilkerson]

SamFlagg wrote...

Here is what I don't understand.

Why is the fact that it is a product change it's possible artistic value?

And then on top of that, why is the possibility it can be changed suddenly make it not art?


If I recall my history correctly most artists that have had their works survive through the ages had patrons who paid them to do things.  Keep the patron happy, you keep getting paid.  Make the patron unhappy, that's all well and good.  Your paychecks start to dry up.

There's a big difference between creating art for art's sake and creating art to turn a profit. From the very start there is a clear goal that underlines the entire process. In one, the goal is to enact on some sort of vision or inspiration. If the artist can make a buck off of it, great, but they're not concerned about that at all.

With the other one the initial goal is to create a marketable product, and the creative direction is steered by the idea of profitability.

However, these two distinction get muddled in certain types of medium that require a significant amount of cash in order to create said art. Movies, TV, and Video Games require a significant amount of capital in order to get produced, where as music, painting and writing's requirements are either small enough for the artist to manage the financial burden themselves, or in the case of writing, the issue is non-existent (though, if these artists look around enough they can find no-strings-attached grants and fellowships that will financially support them if they're talented).

Now, for things like movies, TV and games, the creator might have artistic intentions, but at the same time they need to appease their backers and make sure the product of that investment yeilds a return. The burden is on the artist to produce a financial result, though the amount of pressure on the artist is determined by the nature of the backer.

Some investors put their money in because they just want to support art, and while a return on their money would be nice, it's not a priority. These people Other backers invest their capital for the sole purpose of making a larger return on the end product. These investors are the major movie producers, tv channels and studios, and big game publishers.

Now that I've written all that I've forgoten what my original point was.

[DungeonHoek]

Aesieru wrote...

Not sure how the OP is still discussing things, he has pretty much ignored every comment that proves him entirely wrong, but that's normal I guess.

That's exactly what every single one of the "Artistic integrity" screamers I have seen have done.

They'll argue and argue and argue. But when presented with facts that crush their statements into fine powder, they ignore it and hone in on someone else who isn't as well spoken.

And really, I have yet to see a real distinction between any of them aside from the occassional grammer/spelling errors. Which in some of my meaner days, I've been able to pass myself off easily as someone else by not writing like I normally do.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if what we are witnessing here is the same person. Over and over again. And is either a simple stubborn troll. Or a company plant.

[Zohrdan]

SirCrimz wrote...

The ending looks rushed. If this is true then the "artistic integrity" has already been invalidated. This happens in a lot of games where they run out of resources or time.

The ending feels like many parts of Dragon Age 2... rushed and unfinished

[Phategod1]

AntiDave wrote...

I hate to break it to you guys but you are all posting in a troll thread. He has been trying to pull this same thing off other boards as well. Just stop feeding him.

So exactly how Im trolling, Am I antagonizing anyone I feel as though whether you agree with me or not I have addressed every major counterpoint that was brought up. Was it satisfactory to you? maybe not thats not my goal. Hell I maybe wrong I hope Im wrong. I hope Bioware does not change or amend the ending in any  way I hope that this means absolutely nothing for games to come, But I would hate to see in October for everyone to Migrate to Irrational Games and petition Ken Levines Bioshock infinate because some characters boobs are too small or some other meaningless arguament. 

[PeaceMack]

The "artistic integrity" argument is silly because there was no artistic integrity in ripping off the ending of Deus Ex (including the color coding). There was no artistic integrity in wrapping the ending in the techno-sprititualism of the Matrix. And there sure as heck was no artistic integrity in ending the game with a pop-up advertisement.

The rest of the game was pretty fun. But it's silly to claim that the ending is inviolable due to, "artistic integrity" when the ending didn't have any to begin with.

[kleindropper]

Why did they tell us our choices mattered?; Why even have choices in ME if we all end up in exactly the same spot in the end, save for an extra 5 second cutscene?

[Phategod1]

AntiDave wrote...

I hate to break it to you guys but you are all posting in a troll thread. He has been trying to pull this same thing off other boards as well. Just stop feeding him.

HE has posted his general discontent in a few other boards but never made a single thread till now. 

[mulder1199]

tee hee, ac doyle...fallout 3.....BIOWARE-me:deception.....

also, they don't want the ends changed, they wanted more, varied endings...

[OverdrivenI]

Phategod1 wrote...

AntiDave wrote...

I hate to break it to you guys but you are all posting in a troll thread. He has been trying to pull this same thing off other boards as well. Just stop feeding him.

So exactly how Im trolling, Am I antagonizing anyone I feel as though whether you agree with me or not I have addressed every major counterpoint that was brought up. Was it satisfactory to you? maybe not thats not my goal. Hell I maybe wrong I hope Im wrong. I hope Bioware does not change or amend the ending in any  way I hope that this means absolutely nothing for games to come, But I would hate to see in October for everyone to Migrate to Irrational Games and petition Ken Levines Bioshock infinate because some characters boobs are too small or some other meaningless arguament. 

Your not replying to anyone who actually forms an argument against you. Only posts like this. Yup just trolling.

[Phategod1]

OverdrivenI wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

AntiDave wrote...

I hate to break it to you guys but you are all posting in a troll thread. He has been trying to pull this same thing off other boards as well. Just stop feeding him.

So exactly how Im trolling, Am I antagonizing anyone I feel as though whether you agree with me or not I have addressed every major counterpoint that was brought up. Was it satisfactory to you? maybe not thats not my goal. Hell I maybe wrong I hope Im wrong. I hope Bioware does not change or amend the ending in any  way I hope that this means absolutely nothing for games to come, But I would hate to see in October for everyone to Migrate to Irrational Games and petition Ken Levines Bioshock infinate because some characters boobs are too small or some other meaningless arguament. 

Your not replying to anyone who actually forms an argument against you. Only posts like this. Yup just trolling.

Well I tell you what, report the thread to a mod and let them decide. 

[PluralAces]

they are not changing the ending, i for one dont want them to change the ending. The bad ending is already etched in my mind, and i t cant be replaced. But what they need to is expand on the ending. Answer all the unanswered question people still have. What happened to all the fleets back on Earth? What are their reactions to the Mass Relays being destroyed, and the fact that they cant get back home? Where did Joker land, and who is with him?

There are hundreds of other questions that people have that need to be answered. Because this trilogy is unlike any other video game experience in history, you cant polarize the masses with an ending that belongs in a more traditional game. If this game was linear from the start and there were no choices to make that we thought "would determine the fate of the galaxy" then this ending would be fine. This game became a funnel. With a wide opening at the beginning and then throughout the trilogy you get to the end of the funnel, which is very small and everything leads to the same place, no matter what the choices you made.

For example, kill or save the Rachni Queen in part 1? I'm sure most people thought that was a game changing choice in ME1, and perhaps maybe it would come to bite us in the ass later, but guess what Bioware decided.... this decision is meaningless... Doesnt matter what you chose, there is a clone in part 3 anyway.

Bottom line is they cant change what they have already done, but they need to find a way to bring closure. They wont please everyone regardles of what they do. But there are still alot of unaswered questions. Let's just hope they take some of the input from the community into consideration when doing whatever it is they decide to do.

[Archer]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

I disagree.

This whole issue has gone beyond the whole artist value of this game or any other game for that matter. Bioware lost the right to claim artistic integrity for Mass Effect 3 at the point they decided to end their artitistic vision by  using someone elses in their product. Specificly the incredibly similar choices at the end that came straight from Deus Ex and the numerous comparisons that can be made with Battlestar Galactica.

They also lost the right to claim artistic integrity when they presented the consumers with fairly solid statements of how we would see their vision ending. You cannot issue a series of outright lies to your paying customers and then play the "oh well the fact that we lied doesnt matter because this is art" argument and expect people to accept that.

Also i dont honestly believe that they truly believe in artistic integrity. Firstly Bioware have only recently in Dr Ray's community post, made this claim. That in itself strikes me as odd as it seems to be coming on the back of some of the gaming media advocating the view that games can claim artistic integrity and ignore fan upset on that basis alone.

Is Mass Effect Deception an artistic piece? As a novel yes it is. So why have they stated they will make alterations to it because their audiance didnt like it? Why did they not simply state that this was an artistic piece that would remain unchanged because that was the authors "artistic vision" of how the story would play out?

Simple because the $$ alarm bells started ringing. There approach to Deception was purely a financial consideration. They probably felt that the fan uproar was so loud about that novel that any returns on the product could be at risk. I myself have bought every Mass Effect Novel and every Dragon Age novel, except Deception. I didnt buy Deception because of all the negativity it garnered on these boards and in press reviews.

You cannot have it both ways. If Bioware truly were artists who believed in the integrity of their product they wouldnt alter the Deception novel and they certainly wouldnt alter the game. They would stand their ground and claim the work stands as an artistic piece and thats how they intend it to remain.

But they are making a product that they want to sell to a consumer based market. Now i am not critising the effort, hard work and pride they put in their work but at the end of the day they are doing this to make money. So in otherwords they are compromising their artistic vision to try and make more money. That to my mind is not integrity, and that is why i find the whole artistic integrity argument to be flawed.

Slightly off topic but just to add in conclusion i actually think a lot of good will come from this. The gaming Industry as it stands today needs to realise that at the end of the day the people who are buying your product are consumers. If you want your product to be a comercial succes you cannot lie to us and assume we will accept that. You cannot produce a sub standard product and expect us to be fooled by over exagerated PR and advertising. Please note i am making a bit of generalization here as i dont consider ME3 to be substandard (just the ending) DA2 is a good example though. I do like the game but it was substandard and rushed (recycled maps for example)

Ultimatley if gaming companies continue these trends its their profits that will suffer. With the negativity around DA2 and now the fan backlash on the ME3 endings as a company that wants to make money Bioware really have no choice to revisit the ending, because they are driven for a need to make profit, not artistic integrity.

The whole situation to my mind also highlights the sorry state of gaming media nowadays as well. I have seen very little in the way of objective reporting regarding the issue, on both sides of the argument. Some of the gaming press have taken a support bioware stance, some have attacked bioware for the ending, some of behaved in a truly unproffesional and childish manner. Surely all these reviewers and gaming journalists should be objective and report the news, not try and influence it?

More transparancy from the gaming industry and some understanding that your paying consumers should have some basic rights is a good thing in my mind.

All respect as well to the OP and your views, i like a good friendly debate, interested in your thoughts on my reply

Modifié par eveynameiwantisfekintaken, 22 mars 2012 - 01:47 .

[Makatak]

God forbid storytelling mediums actually change during their development.

Video Games are, what, 40 years old? I think it's okay if "conventional" storytelling through them takes a few twists and turns, and of course there's going to be bumps in the road.

If we all had your mentality, OP, we'd still just be playing variants of Pong.

[jdgjordan]

It gives me a warm fuzzy felling knowing were winning and your losing.