807 réponses à ce sujet

[MystaisPC]

NikitaDarkstar wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

I'd like to see the writers or the team in general defend their artistic integrity against publishers that want to rush them to release a product with the same fervor as they are defending it right now against the players.

Is there any concrete irrefutable proof that this game was rushed?

There is concrete, irrefutable proof that the original ending was leaked at the last minute and had to be changed. (Doesn't go well with "artistic integrity" by the way. If it was about that they wouldn't have cared and released anyway.) There's conrete, irrefutable proof that the part that was changed didn't hold up to the same quality as the rest of the game and the consumers were not happy with it.

Excellent point!

[ThatGuy39]

Phategod1 wrote...

linsanity wrote...

when the Mona Lisa was xray'd artists dicovered multiple mouths under the finished work, some were smiles and some were not. art can become better with revision and reworking.

That said, I dont feel comfortable with Bioware talking about artistic integrety at this time. Its clear they dropped the ball badly. The ending is ridden with plot holes and breaks so many promises Bioware made to us regarding choice. They have compromised themselves here.

Last not least. This is a mass marketed product. calling it art is a compliment but not legally accurate.

That the Thing though It was Leo's decision that those smiles were not perfect no one elses, and to answer someone elses question, art ceases to be art when the artist conformes there art at the behest of the consumer. And I'm not saying that no one here does not have the right to speak there opinion on the ending but when you demand they change the ending comepletly, thats when you as a consumer have over stepped your bounds. If you never want to buy another Bioware/EA game thats your right but to demand them to change a finished a product and if they actually do it you have sucessfully destoryed the artistic integrity of the product. 

 

Artistic integrity? It's a game. It's a mass media product, not art. It is not meant to be put in a gallery somewhere and viewed, it's meant to be played. If we, as the fans, have a problem with the game and a problem with the ending, then we have the right to complain about it. After all, we are the ones that give Bioware the money for said games and allow them to continue making them. Without the fans, there is no product. This isn't about making "artists" conform and compromising their integrity, it's about calling out Bioware on the fact that the ending was rushed and the writing was bad. Example, you get a meal at a restaurant you did not order. Do you accept it, saying "well, it's the chef's artwork, and I would hate to complain about it", no, you send it back and ask them to make what you ordered. That's what we want. We want the filet we were promised, not the grilled cheese sandwich that we recieved.

[SLonergan]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences.

Phategod1 wrote...

Your the ones I am disappointed in

 

Hah. Literally the next sentence.

Art can be changed. Books are edited, movies are re-released as director's cuts, statues have been altered, and paintings have been altered.

Get over yourself.

[naes1984]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

You're an idiot.

[JohnnyG]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

As long as authors, filmmakers, and etc. don't make a bunch of promises like these...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10405204/1

and then reneg on them afterward, then they can do whatever they want.  I just want what they promised (in many cases after the game had already gone gold).

[Phategod1]

naes1984 wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

You're an idiot.

Thats constructive.

[raider_1001]

If by "conventional storytelling", you mean "10-minutes-of-gibberish-that-has-nothing-to-do-with-the-main-plot", I'm glad I ruin it.

The ending literally blows up the ME universe into smithereens, so it is my right to blow up the ending in smithereens as a returned favor...

[MassFrank]

OP
Were this an independent novel released in its original folio, you would have my complete and utter support. Were the writer of the game, the author of the post, you would have my complete and utter support. There is nothing to suggest the ending to this game, was motivated or informed by artistic choice, and I will happily leave it to others to decide its artistic merit. All I know is that Bioware and EA have produced a commercial product which ends in a manner which seems inconsistent with the product's pedigree. In short, something is up with that ending and it sure doesn't look like art.

[jettymasher]

How is petitioning for an ending that makes sense (or at the very least, an explanation to the plot holes, lore errors, and other nonsensical elements of the ending) for a character that we've created and guided over the course of three separate games childish or disastrous to storytelling?

In essense, what we want is what we were told we'd receive: a custimized, vastly different end experience that takes account of many of the decisions made in the previous games and the current story.

[thesnake777]

The endings that were presented are unbecoming of the franchise. They are completely jarring and out of left field and have no business within the game. they are lazy. Now what do I mean by lazy? they feel tacked on, the narrative completely changes and it is just bad story telling.
As people brought up in the thread endings have been changed in the past, stories Like Great Expectations and I am sorry to say that ME does not compare to Great expectations which is an outstanding classical novel.
Furthermore the question becomes at what point is this franchise still art? as stated by the devs themselves the fans have also become part of the process and because of that we are also co writers of the story.
An example of this is is the reason why Garrus and Tali became love interests. It was done because of the fans who wanted to see that in ME2. Bioware made that happen. No one complained then.
The precedent has been established before and is in Biowares best interest because this is less about art and more about business and this company prides itself about taking feedback and tailoring games for their fans.

[Machazareel]

Phategod1 wrote...

naes1984 wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

You're an idiot.

Thats constructive.

About as constructive as avoiding responding to every historical fact that debunks your claim and instead picking at posts that are more opinion based. I get it, though. It's hard to respond when you have no counter argument.

[dbl219]

If you buy the latest edition of the first book of Stephen King's "Dark Tower" series, did you know it contains a significant amount of new content that he decided to add decades after the fact?

The more you know.

[Doppelgaenger]

Shame that interactive Storytelling has nothing to do with conventional storytelling. You can't make and advertise a game about choices and then ignore the fact that your players exist and that it is their game too.

[tiger-tron]

The whole game was art...until the ending struck.

[SLonergan]

jreezy wrote...

SLonergan wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences.

Phategod1 wrote...

Your the ones I am disappointed in

 

Hah. Literally the next sentence.

:huh:Since when did incorrect spelling ruin sentence coherency? 

Because Your means something completely different than the word You're, and if the spelling mistake weren't so common on the internet, people wouldn't understand it.

He's saying that we are in possession of the ones he is disappointed in.

How is that coherent?

But that's beside the point. I reiterate my original message. Art can be altered. No one is forcing Bioware to do this. If they have decided to change the ending, then the new content is still a part of their artistic vision.

[ArcanistLibram]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole.

M. Night Shyamalan's "artistic vision" destroyed his career and he's not the only artist to go down in flames.

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

Artists have always pandered to their patrons and it's not uncommon for directors to change a movie's ending based on focus groups or for writers to change their story based on editorial feedback. The only aritsts who don't change their work based on feedback are the ones who don't have bills to pay. Art has always been and always will be a product.

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games.

I am entitled to an enjoyable gaming experience. Bioware did not deliver. In fact, after Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3, I can no longer trust Bioware to uphold the standards that it set for itself with previous games like Knights of the Old Republic, Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. Right now, I am not interested in buying any Bioware game again. However, unlike other artists, Bioware has the chance to fix their mistake. If they fix their mistake, they'll have my business again. If they don't, I'll just spend my money on another company.

[dbt-kenny]

Elyiia wrote...

Artistic integrity doesn't apply in this situation. In terms of a painting: We commissioned and paid for Bioware to make a painting, the painting didn't fit what was agreed upon (what we were promised) and so we were dissatisfied. If this were the case we'd tell them to go back and fix the painting. This is what is happening.

well said

[Brahlis]

Stupid post.

If Bioware hadn't lied to consumers, the backlash wouldn't have been as hard.

If anything this will keep game companies honest when advertising their products. Don't lie, don't get a **** storm.

Modifié par Brahlis, 22 mars 2012 - 01:59 .

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

Your point is invalid, many other aspects changed from Mass Effect 1 to 2, and then again from 2 to 3. Just because the changes are more drastic this time around, doesn't make them anymore entitled. So you see they have already disproved it being art with past appeasement.

For the record I have nothing wrong with the endings.

[iTofu]

I, unlike many, think it is art. That being said when Mass Effect: Deception came out I didn't hear Bioware or anyone saying, "This is art. Art shouldn't be changed." If you paid someone to draw a painting of the ocean and they painted a pond, you'd say, "Wtf is this?" What's the painter going to say, "Sorry dude, it's art." I think the art argument is bogus.

It wasn't a logical ending, it didn't provide any closure and it seemed to run contrary to the story of Shepard. I don't think it's out of line to provide feedback and request changes. Nothing wrong with that.

Of course, just because there is nothing wrong with it doesn't mean it cannot be viewed as acting entitled. Personally, I wouldn't classify Retake as entitled. That being said, when threads pop up that say stuff like, "I want a completely new ending for free or else." I can see why people think they are entitled.

Modifié par iTofu, 22 mars 2012 - 02:07 .

[LegendaryBlade]

Guys, just stop. It's very obvious that the OP is doing what's called 'selective responding'. He's picking out the 'easy' arguments and responding to only them, while ignoring posts that show large, near irrefutable problems with his logic. He may not be a troll, but it's the debate tactic of somebody with no real input of value.

Move on for goodness sake

[Eire Icon]

alx119 wrote...

Again, I'm sorry that freedom of speech bothers you so much OP. People is in their rights to complain, and as costumers to demand something better.

If you go to a restaurant and they crap in your steak, you ask for another one.

No you wouldn't. You would go to a different restaurant

[AntiDave]

Eire Icon wrote...

alx119 wrote...

Again, I'm sorry that freedom of speech bothers you so much OP. People is in their rights to complain, and as costumers to demand something better.

If you go to a restaurant and they crap in your steak, you ask for another one.

No you wouldn't. You would go to a different restaurant

No, a decent restaurant would compensate you. I would never let a restaurant get away IRL. A round of free drinks is the least they can do.

Modifié par AntiDave, 22 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[leianajade]

I think that this whole 'art cannot be changed!' idea is fairly new, and brought about by people who could afford to make art and not worry about their pocketbooks. More often than not, the case was that someone was commissioned to paint/draw/write something, and if it was unsatisfactory to the patron, you bet that they were going to change whatever was needed until it was perfect. It's not a perfect parallel to this situation, but if you're going to drag art into it, you've got history that you have to drag with it.

Saying that you wouldn't change books or movies as an art form is also inaccurate. An author finishes their 'art' and sends the manuscript off to their agent. The agent suggests that they gut the middle of the story, kill off the best friend, and change the ending to something happier. The author can't claim artistic integrity - it will never get published. This happens all the time.

Movies are run by test audiences, and things cut or added depending on the feedback of these audiences.

It might be rare that books and movies are changed after being released to the general public, but even then ... look at how many changes are made when a book is turned into a movie. Some books aren't even recognizable. So clearly artistic integrity goes out the window there, too.

Whether you want to admit it or not, everything takes fan reaction into account. This should not be any different.