807 réponses à ce sujet

[DuneMuadDib]

Doyle killed Sherlock Holmes, then later undid it due to popular demand and money.
Numerous movies have had ending changed based on test audience responses.
Shakespeare rewrote plays based on audience reaction.
Dickens wrote new ending to "Great Expectations" based on advise regarding reactions.

The precedent exists already. This game series is also built around how player choice will affect the experience. This issue brings it to a meta level. Player choice in the real world might affect the ending. Isn't that one of the main selling points for Mass Effect, that our choices as players matter?

[thebigbad1013]

Bottom line: People have every right to comment about things they like and don't like about the game, BioWare is even encouraging us to do so and always has. They want us to give constructive critisism, both good and bad. And that is how is should be because it enables them to make even better games in the future, which in turn is a win for everybody.

[Quietness]

dear god i think that thing is kryponite for the "But its aaaaart" argument.

[Citizen Q]

So, Sherlock Holmes actually DID die when he and Moriarty fell off that cliff?

Holy ****!!!! I've been reading that one wrong for years!!!

[Mad-Max90]

...artistic my ass, they can change the story all they want and offer it up to you as "dlc" without ever saying they were "changing the story" and you'd eat it up. I bought mass effect 1 day one played it well over 10 times, I pre-ordered mass effect 2 played it 9 times have all the dlc for all three games, the only reason why I don't have a collector's edition is because best buy sold my copy to somebody else. That being said I do want a more coherent ending to what is my favorite game franchise. And why shouldn't I get an ending I'd like? It's not hurting you in anyway, you can stick to your plot hole filled endings. And don't use the "artistic integrity" bs line as, that has been thrown out the minute developers started holding onto pieces of their game to sell to you as dlc. It's like buying a painting only to find out the "artist" literally cut out the corners to sell back to you

[Veracity]

I don't understand.

We are customers who have paid for a product produced by said company (Bioware), giving away our hard earned dollars in order to experience said product.

After finishing said product, many of us were left unsatisfied and disillusioned with Bioware's ability to write/end a game correctly. Therefore, we do what any self respecting consumer would do, and we give feedback on what we did not like about the game. Most of said feedback about the endings was placated in a negative light, leading to bad publicity and an open spotlight on Bioware/EA's doorstep.

Sales of the product then start to decline, returns and refunds are being surmounted, and people are starting to swear off Bioware/EA products for good because they are fed up with low quality products and would rather spend their hard earned money on other products from other developers.

So in order to save face and their franchise, along with the future of the company, they are forced with the choice of raising quality to please consumers (you know, those people that keep companies afloat?) or falling by the wayside and allowing their customers to walk away and spend their money elsewhere. Which do you think they would choose?

This is the free market at work, and it's a beautiful thing.

Modifié par Veracity, 22 mars 2012 - 08:47 .

[soundhole]

[pablosplinter]

Dusty Arne wrote...
I dont want Bioware to be forced in to a road they wern't planning to go.

that has clearly already happened. have you seen all of the satements made by Bioware before release about multiple endings and choices mattering.

Also, Bioware invalidated any kind of 'artistic vision' defense with the very last 2 words of their great vision- DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT.


PS. I detest this 'put up or shut up' attitude that people are having over others criticizing Bioware

Modifié par pablosplinter, 22 mars 2012 - 08:47 .

[Shanook]

Oh, great. This argument again...

Video games are completely unlike any other art form currently in existence. Would you compare architecture to literature, or cooking to interior design? No. They are completely different art forms.

Fact of the matter is, we don't know what the standards for video game storytelling and its ability to be changed by the fanbase are because we haven't set those standards up yet. We are doing that now.

Also, 99% of artists who say, "Sod off, it's my art and I'll do what I want with it" are also living in a cardboard box because no one wants to hire them. Coming from an art student who deals with people like this on a regular basis.

Modifié par Shanook, 22 mars 2012 - 08:48 .

[Quietness]

Citizen Q wrote...

So, Sherlock Holmes actually DID die when he and Moriarty fell off that cliff?

Holy ****!!!! I've been reading that one wrong for years!!!

yea gotta love retcon

[Sparse]

Even if you accept the argument that art can be a commercial product - which is highly questionable - it is complete nonsense to suggest that an artist will - or should - act with a total disregard for their audience. No artist does that, particularly not when they are utilising a highly interactive medium.

Film-makers frequently take the feedback of test audiences into account when deciding on the final cut of their work. Is film not art??

Authors very rarely, if ever, have their first draft published. It is always edited by someone who has not been involved within the creative process. Is writing not art??


Are you honestly telling me that you don't believe that Michelangelo was an artist because he took the desires of his clients into account rather than just express himself according to his own whims??

You are basically saying that there has been no art, ever.

All art is collaborative., it requires feedback and is not undermined when that feedback clashes with the artist's initial vision, it is enhanced.

Modifié par Sparse, 22 mars 2012 - 08:50 .

[SomeKindaEnigma]

I'm pretty sure authors who write novels CONSTANTLY change their work based on new ideas, outside influences (perhaps even FANS *COUGH*), and such, including revised editions of pieces they have already released. Do you also consider that betraying their artistic vision?

Modifié par SomeKindaEnigma, 22 mars 2012 - 08:47 .

[KingKhan03]

Cocaine is hell of a drug.

[McAllyster]

 There is no "artistic integrity" in the case of an RPG.

[Stakis]

yeah OP tell that to G lucas, fans demanded Han Solo to live and guess what, the franchise got epic status and lucas got his pockets full with the merchandise, fans are the best asset any company or artist has to improve to their product not the critics.

[Sailfindragon]

OP - Just to point out it is rated "M" for mature in the US. ME 3 is rated 15 here in the UK. ME 1 was rated 12.

Modifié par Sailfindragon, 22 mars 2012 - 08:52 .

[Timpossible21]

A Game/story does not lose it's artistic value, when you change something that's messed up.
This Idea of "holy and untouchable art" is from the 1860s....

And by the way:
Fallout 3 did it with broken steel. And there still is what you call "modern storytelling".
There are rewrites of books and recuts of movies. Some directors refilm scenes of a movie, if the testaudience don't like it.

If you want to show a piece of art to an audience, and the majority of an audience does not like it, why shouldn't you be able to change it, so the audience may like it?

But yes...
Some of the movement guys are just ****s and act like babys. With all this "we DEMAND" and "Bioware HAS TO" or "we have the RIGHT TO get". If Bioware actualle changes the ending, than i guess these kids may act even worse.

Modifié par Timpossible21, 22 mars 2012 - 08:48 .

[Citizen Q]

Quietness wrote...

Citizen Q wrote...

So, Sherlock Holmes actually DID die when he and Moriarty fell off that cliff?

Holy ****!!!! I've been reading that one wrong for years!!!

yea gotta love retcon

When done right, I have zero problem with retcon.

In the case of Doyle and Sherlock Holmes, it needed to happen.

Just as it does here.

[Alikan]

Yes, because something being art automatically means its good and free from being criticized?

and as said its an commercial product with a numbe rof outright promises attached.

As for artistic vision, i just think about the constant increase in female chestsizes as regards ME3 and DA2 and the "artfull" zoomins on Miranda Lawson's behind and start to laugh uncontrollably

[Mitra]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

I must thank you for stating your opinion, but as an artist myself, I must state that I disagree with your opinion. I just don't want to go under it all again. Everyone is free to state their mind

[HenchxNarf]

I agree with you, OP.

[SandTrout]

zenoxis wrote...

We gave them our money based on promises they made to us. We have every right to demand a better ending. Also see Star Wars (original trilogy) for changes made to a product that has already been released for more information on why this kind of thing has happened already and isn't going to destroy society as we know it.

You're welcome. 
/thread

Star Wars and the changes that Lucas made to the original Trilogy (against the will of the fans) are actaully a fine example of 'artistic integrity' run amok.

[Quietness]

Citizen Q wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Citizen Q wrote...

So, Sherlock Holmes actually DID die when he and Moriarty fell off that cliff?

Holy ****!!!! I've been reading that one wrong for years!!!

yea gotta love retcon

When done right, I have zero problem with retcon.

In the case of Doyle and Sherlock Holmes, it needed to happen.

Just as it does here.

Yup, and it took time and a lot of outrage but than all of a sudden like  there was Holmes a-okay.

[Darknessfalls23]

I am confuse the ending hasn't even been changed yet, besides all we are doing is pointing out the glaring potholes, the nonsensical reasoning for the Reapers and three Identical choices, that doesn't make you feel like yay Shepard ended his life heroically. Audience job is react to "art".