807 réponses à ce sujet

[ScotGaymer]

Lol threads like this make me laugh.

We have had real artists up in these forums telling us in no uncertain terms that the artistic license arguement is completely bogus.

Lol.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Quick question for you art defenders, specifically those who use movies as a form of artistic integrity. Where do remakes and reboots fit into your definition? By nature they are altering the fiction of their source. I hate to use Micheal Bay as an example but has he not violated this supposed "artistic integrity" with his bastardized versions of Transformers and now Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Their prior lore was long established by their original creators. What makes Bay so different from us fans?

What if twenty years from now someone remade Mass Effect at EA's behest? Would that not infringe on this supposed "artistic integrity" argument if they changed aspect of the story and characters? Oh and before someone attempts the "but they have permission from the creator!" Not in all cases, no, however for argument's sake let us assume so. BioWare gave the fans permission on two separate occasions - first by acknowledging us as "co-creators" and making promises of choice. Secondly, by accepting to change the endings and/or clarify them in lieu of telling us to "Deal with it."

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 22 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[Jackal7713]

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Modifié par Jackal7713, 22 mars 2012 - 03:33 .

[sOUZUKEN]

Who keeps saying art can't be changed? Some ancient guy went on a rampage changing "art" because the art he was referring to was showing off human genitalia, so it became a leaf instead of showing the thing dangling between the legs.

Movies even change the endings during test screenings. After all it's about impact, When your artistic vision gets bad reactions and that was not what you intended, then change is simply inevitable. You made art to please the fans, and it did not do what it was intended to do, therefore you change it.

[nitefyre410]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Lol threads like this make me laugh.

We have had real artists up in these forums telling us in no uncertain terms that the artistic license arguement is completely bogus.

Lol.

 

Never let the facts get in the way of a good agrument... 

LOL...these threads make me laugh

[MinatheBrat]

Video games are a product. Art, naturally, can be used in the development of a product.

However, when you have a consumer base that expects a product to be one way, and then after you exchange the money they find out it was really another...well, that's when you have the fecal matter hitting the rotating oscillator.

[CarolSephard]

J.R.R. Tolkien could have used "Frodo wins" rather than the story told in "The return of the king" if he wanted to. Would you consider it art? or would you be pissed?

[dfstone]

This isn't Lord of the Rings, its basically an animated choose your own adventure book. Problem with it is at the end, all 3 choices send you to the same page. It makes people feel like they got ripped off.

Modifié par dfstone, 22 mars 2012 - 03:23 .

[DeathEnder7]

Dridengx wrote...

linsanity wrote...

when the Mona Lisa was xray'd artists dicovered multiple mouths under the finished work, some were smiles and some were not. art can become better with revision and reworking.

Like a sketching or rough draft, its called molding or crafting until you are happy with your work.. you do realize he DIDN"T SELL IT then change it. Mass Effect 3 is sold, you don't change it after selling. So your arguement is flawed.

Someones argument is flawed, haven't you ever heard of a directors cut?? Bladerunner is a prime example where the producers/studio had one vision tha clashed with the directors.  There are plenty of films with alternate endings, Army of Darkness for example, or extended additions where they've often re-edited most of the film LOTR. George Lucas feels free to mess with Starwars every decaded aswell, which is annoying as I prefer the original ending to ROTJ and for a while he refused to release the orignals as he wanted the "improved" versions to be cannon, which they later caved on.

In this argument we can almost be put into the role of producers as we are helping shape and give this product direction. Bioware are the directors, and our end vision may clash heads, that doesn't mean it can't or should not be changed. They can call it "the hold the line cut "if the like, I think it is important that both sides find equal ground, we as fans will have concede some of the demands and Bioware have conceded changes need to be made.

[MinatheBrat]

dfstone wrote...

This isn't Lord of the Rings, its basically an animated choose your own adventure book. Problem with it is at the end, all 3 choices send you to the same page. It makes people feel like they got ripped off.

Ooo nice analogy. 

[Murkman4683]

Forcing a change is going to change things for the worst in this industry. Do we really need 5% of the gaming population dictating how games are to be made? Destroying ME3 on Metacritic accomplished what exactly? Before the game even released most of you were ready to take heads, calling for the firing of employees, predicting Bioware's downfall. This is a giant joke and none of you should be taken seriously.

Now we are going to start seeing people revolt against books, music, movies, etc. Where is that going to get us? Most of these industries have no problem just cancelling a project or not continuing an ongoing series. What would you guys do if you did not have the internet to complain, nothing, you would have played the game and dealt with it.

[TheMakoMaster]

You do know that patrons commissioned many of the world's artistic masterpieces and that these patrons directly or indirectly influenced the direction of the end product.

If Michelangelo and company decided to make Muhammad the focal point of the fresco in Sistine Chapel, I bet the Catholic Church would have made him to change it

Bioware's patrons are its fans. Clearly many of them are not happy with the work their $60 commissioned.

[dfstone]

Murkman4683 wrote...

Forcing a change is going to change things for the worst in this industry. Do we really need 5% of the gaming population dictating how games are to be made? Destroying ME3 on Metacritic accomplished what exactly? Before the game even released most of you were ready to take heads, calling for the firing of employees, predicting Bioware's downfall. This is a giant joke and none of you should be taken seriously.

Now we are going to start seeing people revolt against books, music, movies, etc. Where is that going to get us? Most of these industries have no problem just cancelling a project or not continuing an ongoing series. What would you guys do if you did not have the internet to complain, nothing, you would have played the game and dealt with it.

Bethesda did it in Fallout 3. All these "professional" reviewers slamming Bioware for even considering it were, just a year or so ago, praising Bethesda for doing the exact same thing.  

[johhnytrash]

Hey OP, where was Bioware's artistic integrity when they put up the default look for Femshep up for a vote?

[Silveralen]

dfstone wrote...

This isn't Lord of the Rings, its basically an animated choose your own adventure book. Problem with it is at the end, all 3 choices send you to the same page. It makes people feel like they got ripped off.

Tolkein wrote lod of the rings because his editors rejected his first few follow ups to the Hobbit, and thought he should write stories involving more Hobbits.

Lord of the RIngs exists because Tolkein "violated his own artistic integriy" and did as his editor suggested to make the fans happy.

People don't realize, this already occurs in all forms of art.

[MinatheBrat]

johhnytrash wrote...

Hey OP, where was Bioware's artistic integrity when they put up the default look for Femshep up for a vote?

HA!! Good point.

[Jackal7713]

Da Vinci was know for going back to projects at times or out right abandoning them.

Infrared technology revealed long-hidden details beneath the surface of Da Vinci's "The Adoration of the Magi." This is just one example of Da Vinci going back to a work an making adjustments. With the "Magi" painting he did abandon it, however before that, there are signs that he has reworked that painting several times.

So why can't Bioware go back and add to their Art?

[Myskal1981]

Murkman4683 wrote...

Forcing a change is going to change things for the worst in this industry. Do we really need 5% of the gaming population dictating how games are to be made? Destroying ME3 on Metacritic accomplished what exactly? Before the game even released most of you were ready to take heads, calling for the firing of employees, predicting Bioware's downfall. This is a giant joke and none of you should be taken seriously.

Now we are going to start seeing people revolt against books, music, movies, etc. Where is that going to get us? Most of these industries have no problem just cancelling a project or not continuing an ongoing series. What would you guys do if you did not have the internet to complain, nothing, you would have played the game and dealt with it.

Doubtful as it was stated again and again that you cannot compare video games with books or movies due to the interactive approach of video games and the finality and railroad story design of a released book or movie. The key difference is consuming vs. actively interacting with the product. The majority of the people that posted in this thread recognize that. 

You are painting a distopian future for media artists that is way exagerated. 

Modifié par Myskal1981, 22 mars 2012 - 03:35 .

[hammyhamstersy]

Normally I'd be inclined to agree with OP sentiments about changing game endings. However, I don't believe that Bioware intends to just slap on a new ending to appease the fans. Rather I'm sure that they'll stick to their ending and just supplement it with dlc's and etc to flesh out the ambiguities and uncertainties. Because if they did decide to go back and change their ending then that would be just as bad!

[nitefyre410]

johhnytrash wrote...

Hey OP, where was Bioware's artistic integrity when they put up the default look for Femshep up for a vote?

 

Damn... Win... so much win... 

[SLonergan]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Ohhh SNAP

[iamthedave3]

Murkman4683 wrote...

Forcing a change is going to change things for the worst in this industry. Do we really need 5% of the gaming population dictating how games are to be made? Destroying ME3 on Metacritic accomplished what exactly? Before the game even released most of you were ready to take heads, calling for the firing of employees, predicting Bioware's downfall. This is a giant joke and none of you should be taken seriously.

Now we are going to start seeing people revolt against books, music, movies, etc. Where is that going to get us? Most of these industries have no problem just cancelling a project or not continuing an ongoing series. What would you guys do if you did not have the internet to complain, nothing, you would have played the game and dealt with it.

This is one of the worst slippery slope fallacies I've ever seen. Impressive.

People have been revolting against those artforms for as long as they've existed. In the time of Dr. Johnson (the man who wrote the first dictionary), the ending of King Lear was edited because it was too depressing. Arthur Conan Doyle resurrected Sherlock Holmes for essentially the exact reason Bioware is adding bits to the ending of ME 3.

Movie endings are frequently changed due to bad test screening or even studio pressure. Harry Potter was meant to stay dead and the story was supposed to end at the battle of Hogwarts. Ron Weasley was meant to die. J. K. Rowling changed all of these things because her publishers told her to.

If you have ever tried writing in a serious way you would know this. A book is not formed out of the writer's head fully fledged, it's formed out of editing, critiquing, redrafting and altering until the writer and publishers are satisfied.

In the videogaming industry there's no such relationship. Makers make, players play, and never the two shall meet. This is why most videogame storylines are complete crap. There's no culture of analysis, critique and improve as there has been for narrative for centuries.

This won't ruin the industry: it'll bring it up to speed.

[Shock n Awe]

Art by famous writers (books), painters, and sculptures has been changed before.

Hudson's duty was to create a work of art for us, his consumers, to enjoy. If he fails to deliver that, then his art should either be changed or be lost to history, as he is not creating art for arts sake. He is creating art for the sole intention of selling it, so his artistic visions must please the consumer or else they fail.

Modifié par Shock n Awe, 22 mars 2012 - 03:40 .

[Murkman4683]

Bethsada fixed the game so you could continue to play in the open world, not because the ending was bad, get your facts straight. 

Is there not a better fight to be picked, could all this energy be used for something actually meaningful?  This won't go down in history, this will fade away like everything else.  40 years from now do you expect people to say, "I was there when Bioware changed their ending".  No, no one will care, you guys are not doing anything great here, I mean it is just a video game.

Modifié par Murkman4683, 22 mars 2012 - 03:47 .

[pavi132]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

First of all, the developers didn't use their own money to develop these games. They used ours and their publishers. This is akin to commisioning art, which means you have the right to ask the artist to create what you paid them to create. Again, books are often changed by the publishers because they are the ones paying to produce the book. Movies go through the same or at least a similar process. Artists often have to work with the people who pay for their art to come to a compromise. I think you have a skewed vision of what an artist really is as well as how video games, movies, and books are created. You know that plenty of times during this games development, for example, the artists working on the game were likely told to change things by higher-ups. As those are the people who hired them and paid them, they have to listen and find some common ground. Is that a breach of artistic integrity as well? It is well within the rights of a consumer to demand that a product is fixed or changed if it wasn't the product that was advertised. I am tired of this vision that video game consumers are allowed no control over their fate and must simply "deal with it". It's either get screwed and deal with false advertising, poor quality games, crazy monetization, and lack of support for the products you purchased or gtfo.