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[XqctaX]

Quietness wrote...

 and you need this as well i guess... i mean of course who can remember all those director cut movies and post-ending dlc... anyways onto our show:





Video games, art or not, are created with the intention of selling to a consumer. The consumer has every right to critique the product they receive. Mass Effect 3 was not art for art's sake, it was art produced to be consumed. Many argue that asking for a different ending sets a bad precedent, and asking the artist to alter their work is inappropriate. Historically speaking this is not uncommon in art or setting any precedent good or bad. The precedent has already been set. Lets look at some examples: 



Great expectations by Charles Dickens: At the end of the original version Pip meets Estella on the streets, who has remarried after her abusive husband has died. Pip says that he is glad she is a different person now from the coldhearted girl Miss Havisham reared her to be and that "suffering had been stronger than Miss Havisham's teaching and had given her a heart to understand what my heart used to be." Pip remains single. Following comments by Wilkie Collins that the ending was too sad, Dickens rewrote the ending so that Pip now meets Estella after the death of her husband in the ruins of Satis House with the suggestion that they will marry. Early 20th century writers including John Forster, George Bernard Shaw and George Orwell felt that the original ending was "more consistent with the draft, as well as the natural working out of the tale"; modern literary criticism tends to support the more common second ending. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Expectations 



Sherlock Holmes novels by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: Wanting to devote more time to his historical novels, he killed off Holmes in "The Final Problem," which appeared in print in 1893. After resisting public pressure for eight years, the author wrote The Hound of the Baskervilles, which appeared in 1901. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes 



Little Shop of Horrors the film: The original conclusion to the off-Broadway musical was filmed and preferred by Frank Oz the director and the majority of the actors. However, test audiences disliked how Audrey and Seymour, the main protagonists, were both killed by the evil alien plant, and the ending had to be re-shot so that their deaths were removed. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_ending 



Some of the world's greatest artists changed their work or others changed it after they finished because the consumer demanded it. The infamous "fig-leaf campaign" of the Counter-Reformation, aiming to cover all representations of human genitals in paintings and sculptures, started with Michelangelo's works. To give two examples, the marble statue of Cristo della Minerva (church of Santa Maria sopra Minerva, Rome) was covered by added drapery, as it remains today, and the statue of the naked child Jesus in Madonna of Bruges (The Church of Our Lady in Bruges, Belgium) remained covered for several decades. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo 


The music industry's "clean versions" are in response to consumer demand. These are just a few of the many examples of "art" that was changed because of consumer demand. The argument that gamers are being "entitled brats" is hardly truthful or relevant. 


Truthfully these "entitled gamers" may be entitled to a more satisfying ending. This entitlement has been created by Bioware itself. 


Mike Gamble (Associate Producer): “And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway.” www.computerandvideogames.com...issing-in-me2/ 


“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…” http://www.360magazi...erent-endings/ 


Casey Hudson (Director): “For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations.” http://www.gameinfor...-effect-3.aspx 


“Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.” http://venturebeat.c...ans-interview/ 



One could argue that gamers are "entitled" to an ending based on these statements made by the producer of this piece of "art". 


TL;DR Saying a new ending sets a bad precedent for games as an art form is incorrect. Art has been changed based on consumer input for centuries. Gamers are entitled to a different ending more in line with what Bioware itself promised.

this.

[wasawsolos]

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow it really boggles my mind that people can honestly compare themselves to the Catholic Church who commissioned/hired Micheangelo to paint/sculpt ect... to themselves as having hired BioWare to write/produce ME3. The Church as said patron had every right to determine what the artwork would represent because they approved preliminary sketches. Please don't think that he just painted whatever he felt like.

Quit deluding yourselves you didn't hire them you purchased their mass produced artwork. Much like buying a poster of said famous work of art you bought a copy of someones artistic vision and because you don't like the ending you feel ripped off. But no one forced you to buy it and you in no way hired them to make it for you, you chose to go along for the ride.

The problem though is that we paid for it "sight unseen." If I bought a Thomas Kinkade painting, I dont expect to get a smilie face with a cowboy hat.   Same with this game. I bought it expecting one thing, then getting shafted with another.  I didn't get what I paid for, and you know how hard it is to get a refund for a pc game?   And now Im offering my customer loyalty to BioWare if they can fix this. If not, no more BioWare products for me.

[TheWerdna]

Uhhh OP, Broken Steel DLC says hello.

Seriously, this is not the first time a ending has been changed due to fan-outcry. it is setting no president.

[TheBandit554]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

You can change art you know, just saying.

Yes, in development, but not after the paint has dried and the marble hardened. ME3 was great, people just need to learn some patience and to calm the **** down. If we give Bioware time, they'll make great DLC and more amazing games.

[The Angry One]

For god's sake, before you make another tirade about how "writers won't be allowed to writer their way", DO YOUR RESEARCH. Look up Sherlock Holmes, look up Harry Potter, look up Fallout 3.

STOP CRYING OVER WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE.
"Art" is not immutable and never was.

[Joroelcapo]

Well George Lucas changes star wars every time he can.
Beside i think that the community is angry about the lack of choice in the ending. I think that the mistake was to make a story as a film. But video games are a different medium if you have made a game in which you can choose the fate of characters is very disappointing to find a linear game in the climax when is the most important part for the gamer. I like the ending but i wasnt happy when i found that there is only one outcome. And why they put liara in my sheppard head in the flashback?!! he was in love of miranda!!!!! ggggggggrrrrrr and i kill the synthetics but joker didnt seems to care that edi is death!!! GGGGGrr i remember that and i think that it wasnt that difficult give a good closure to the characters

[The Ole Ultra Violence]

Where do I begin?

First of all, who says art can't be changed? The final decision has always rested with BioWare, that's a fact. They can't be "Forced" do anything, so to suggest that what people have done is a violation of artistic vision would mean that they don't have a right to express their opinion, because no matter how vocally, that's ALL they've done.

Second of all, you are aware that film studios often show a select audience their movie before release, correct? They often change the film, and they also often release alternate versions of it later on DVD (Sometimes those alternate versions are CLOSER to the original vision).

Art isn't exempt from criticism.

WHY is it such a huge deal for art to change? Who says the original version is the always the best? Who says the creators can't simply change their mind? it's their work, after all. You talk about the default state of a work like it's a holy relic, like it should never be touched because attempting to change it would hurt it. NOT changing it could hurt it just as much. How many ideas do you think get shot down or changed during production? how much do you think was cut for time?

That any work remains a singular idea untouched by reality is as naive an idea as you claim the various "16 year olds" to be, and is in no way desirable either. We live in reality, all art comes from reality, and reality is the place in which it must ultimately exist and be judged. Don't resist that, embrace it. Art is often BETTER, even in the eyes of it's creator, for it's exposure to reality. Lair of the Shadow Broker was founded on fan reaction. Part of the reason this series is so great is because of BioWares willingness to accept outside influence.

Your idea of a singular, unchanging artistic vision, birthed from the mind of one man and nobody else, conceived and executed away from ANY exterior influence, ignorant of all criticism, thankfully never existed.

[Tritium315]

Hate to tell you bro but most art is commissioned art, paid for by consumers. Think back to any great "Work of art" be it painting, movie, sculpture, building, etc. More than likely it wasn't created because the artist decided to one day go big; it was created because someone hired the artist to make it. The people who should have the final say in how a work of art looks are those who finance it.

If Bioware had made mass effect on their own and then released it for free for the world to enjoy then you'd have an argument, but they didn't, so you don't.

[Sal86]

While this was the finale to the trilogy of full games, the ME IP was never going to be finished here. Providing feedback and suggestions on unfinished work is by no means a demand and happens *all the time* across various types of media. Where do you suppose the phrase 'retcon' comes from?

[DaringMoosejaw]

Oh no! Conventional storytelling is ruined forever!

Oh, wait. It was already ruined when Broken Steel DID THE SAME EXACT GODDAMNED THING!

[Controller_B]

Bioware hoses itself by forcing gamers to accept these 3 choices (and their similar immediate implications) as the only endings that can possibly exist in this universe. All of a sudden the story goes from being a unique experience with no user having the one true experience to everyone having the same canon ending. Using some sort of creative freedom excuse as to why there can't be other endings shoots bioware in the foot. And that's sort of the funny part about this topic. I seriously doubt Bioware wants their game to be considered an exercise in conventional story telling. If Bioware tells the gamer the ending has to be the way it is... then they contradict everything about what they've said about endings and choices in general.

It's funny because any DLC that gets released is a de facto rewriting of the narrative and the timeline of story. But no one is crying about how fan input on that aspect (I want a mission on Omega!) would be some sort of stranglehold on artistic integrity.

In asking for another ending to a game that already has multiple endings and is meant by it's writers to be a unique experience, I'm implying that the current endings aren't good enough. The only thing being infringed on is the author's ego and the game's reputation for being good enough as is. Don't mistake a defense of those last two things as some sort of defense of art.

Modifié par Controller_B, 22 mars 2012 - 04:36 .

[Asepsis]

The thing is, Mass Effect is not "conventional" story telling. That's what makes it so unique and amazing. It is shaped by the writers AND the game players. It's a really cool mix of players and writers helping to shape a world we all enjoy, at least that's what I personally was lead to believe about ME1-ME2-ME3 by the developers. (can't speak for others) If Mass Effect was a linear "conventional" story with a set of events we played through (like Splinter Cell, or Mario), I would not be here asking the endings be addressed, but it isn't that, it is a CHOICE based game that prides itself on unique results/endings and the world around Shepard being affected by every choice you make. CHOOSE WISELY right?

Also, some other GREAT games such as Fallout 3 have done the same thing and they're game keeps selling and is AMAZING. I have nothing but respect for Bethesda.

I think if Bioware does this it'll show they are truly open to their fans, it won't demean them or make their stories less worth it. I think it'll make the stories more fulfilling to everyone and keep the company respected. No one is going to force people to take new endings, you can keep the old endings if you want, we just want the company that promised us one thing to follow through and preserve its good name.

I'm still a Bioware fan, I just don't want to see what could have been the greatest, ground breaking, sci fi game trilogy of all time, as well as Bioware, be reduced to a meme on the internet about bad endings and player hate.

Anyway, I can see your point, but I disagree with it. I don't think this will damage anything. It'll only help improve it.

[Arllekin]

they are not changing, just explaining more, that's how should have being done

[CheeseEnchilada]

The Angry One wrote...

For god's sake, before you make another tirade about how "writers won't be allowed to writer their way", DO YOUR RESEARCH. Look up Sherlock Holmes, look up Harry Potter, look up Fallout 3.

STOP CRYING OVER WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE.
"Art" is not immutable and never was.

This needs to be quoted just about everywhere. Art can be changed. Art has been changed. A blanket statement that this is destroying all creative integrity is ignoring the multiple times this specific thing--changing a part of the story--has been done before. People screen movies to the public before they're released, and sometimes they get changed if there's a strong backlash. 

And even then, this isn't an ending we're going against because we disagree with the artistic values put in place. This is an ending that we're against because there are numerous things involved that make absolutely no sense within the lore and are given no context or explanation. If your fans are clinging to the higly-involved Indoctrination Theory and choosing to believe 'it was all just a dream' over your stated ending, that points to a serious quality issue.

Modifié par CheeseEnchilada, 22 mars 2012 - 04:36 .

[aliengmr1]

I feel bad there are people who actually want to silence themselves over the made up notion the creative freedom is set in stone. Its pitiful. I am a PC gamer who doesn't own any console and this notion that those who actually play the games having no influence is repulsive. Its wrong on so many levels. Should fans run the games entirely, no, but can they have some influence, without question. You want hold creative freedom sacrosanct, fine, but all you are doing is silencing yourself. Without fans its just the executives and investors influence the devs, are they better?

Creative freedom made Greedo shoot first.

[Pantegana]

Phategod1 wrote...

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product.

Or maybe we simply have an outdated concept of what is "art" and what is not.

[WarBaby2]

Blablabla... it's art... blablabla... can't do... blablabla... and then some more blah

You know what? you people are as creative as BioWare was with this ending.^^

If we have acheived anything, then I hope that it's: Companies will think harder about what they are doing... not releasing unfinished stuff because of time costrains... or let non-writer teamleaders write stuff unattended...

[Bronze65]

Bethesda changed the ending, won the respect of their fans and Skyrim was a massive success.

That right there ends this thread.

[Vromrig]

Disingenuous and overly dramatic. No basis for accusation. Art, also, not in vaccuum, not immune from criticism. Never been case. Never will be case.

Movies, considered modern form of art. Necessitates pre-screenings. Test audiences. Endings often changed.

Ultimately, demanding people be grateful Bioware makes money off them. Illogical conclusion. Bioware cannot request feedback, then attempt to deflect, defend with emotions, "artistic integrity".

Made mistake. If wishing to retain customers, must amend mistake.

[GammaRayJim]

Beta-Breech wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow it really boggles my mind that people can honestly compare themselves to the Catholic Church who commissioned/hired Micheangelo to paint/sculpt ect... to themselves as having hired BioWare to write/produce ME3. The Church as said patron had every right to determine what the artwork would represent because they approved preliminary sketches. Please don't think that he just painted whatever he felt like.

Quit deluding yourselves you didn't hire them you purchased their mass produced artwork. Much like buying a poster of said famous work of art you bought a copy of someones artistic vision and because you don't like the ending you feel ripped off. But no one forced you to buy it and you in no way hired them to make it for you, you chose to go along for the ride.

While we the fans didn't commision this work, we funded it by buying the previous games and keeping the company alive.  If we stopped buying their games, DLC and products they would not of been able to make this game.   It's a buyers market and shock horror the buyers aren't happy with a product because it's not as advertised.   

When it comes down to games and the story they tell a cruicial part of it, is the way it ends.  It has to be consistent to be considered good, it has to have some level of rationallity to match the world it's been set in.  The ending doesn't have either of these things.   It wouldn't matter if everyone died, or if the galaxy was destroyed, just as long as it was damn consistent.  

If I didn't enjoy the Gears of war style multiplayer (which is neither artistic or that interesting in the way it was developed)  I would of returned the game and got my money back.    Don't delude yourself that the buyers don't control the market.  It happens when fans of a series make requests or are unhappy with a product.  What this is, is a product that contains some artistic merit, but it's a product none the less.  

What you're forgetting is with music, and books we can sample them without having to put money on the table first.   We can decided wether or not we want to contribute to the artists developement and help fund their next endevor.  With games we can't do that, so they're more of a product than anything else.  

What you are describing is consumerism which is not the same or should ever be confused with the commissioning of artwork. A commissioned artist is hired to produce artwork preapproved by the commissioner. Yes by buying previous titles from BioWare we kept them in business but in no way does that constitute the commissioning of future games.

I am not delude in not believing that buyers control the market, but we do that by not purchasing products from companies that don't consistently deliver what we are looking for and not by demanding that the company changes its product. That being said as I stated in an earlier post it is ok to criticise and complain and should the company choose to change something based on that so be it, but to think in some way we earned that right out of commission is ridiculous.

As the case of music sure you can sample but that doesn't mean you will be happy with the entire album. Reading a few chapters in a book will no way tell you how the book will end, if you like a few chapters you can choose go for the ride where the author wants to take you. With games we do have a chance at times with the release of demo's but again no demo is going to tell you how it ends. Movies release trailers showing the most exciting parts of the movie in the hopes of getting you to go see it and sometimes the trailer is the only good part of the movie.

The only way you truly have control over the content is if you choose to purchase and play. People don't like the way this story ended, not how the game played but how their emotional attachment to Shepard did not meet with their expectations...so be it, it happens a lot in life.

[aliengmr1]

Vromrig wrote...

Disingenuous and overly dramatic. No basis for accusation. Art, also, not in vaccuum, not immune from criticism. Never been case. Never will be case.

Movies, considered modern form of art. Necessitates pre-screenings. Test audiences. Endings often changed.

Ultimately, demanding people be grateful Bioware makes money off them. Illogical conclusion. Bioware cannot request feedback, then attempt to deflect, defend with emotions, "artistic integrity".

Made mistake. If wishing to retain customers, must amend mistake.

Thank you Mordin:D

[WarBaby2]

Vromrig wrote...
Made mistake. If wishing to retain customers, must amend mistake.

Tell 'em fly catcher!

[Mainframe79]

There was this other guy who used to rewrite his art when audiences didn't like it..lemme think now. OH RIGHT it was Shakespeare. What a tool he was. Total hack how he changed his art so audiences would like it better.

[Siegdrifa]

@ OP
Have actualy worked in a video game studio and know how it really works ?

Mass Effect is the work of hundreds of people over the years, there is only 2 writters left from the original Mass Effect game.
If you think they never had internal argument over what and how to make evolve the project, you are naive, each "artist" has his vision, his experience, his taste, his personnality, Mass Effect is not the product of a hive mind, it's is a product built with the part each individual added, following or against their vision.
This is a team work, each indicidual are professional enough to deliver one coherent product by working together, even supporting a vision they wouldn't approve but they will do their best to express it as the team decided.

Product product product .... because this is what Mass effect is in a first place. Why you think they got the fund to make the other mass effect game ? because it was selling well enough!
Those who hold the power to devcide is EA stockholder, and stockholder don't care about video games or art, it's just "another market" to invest their money to get more money.

As long as Bioware will fill the stockholder's wallet, they will be free to do "their project".
Stockholder look at numbers, as long as Bioware's numbers are good, it's means their decisions must be good.
If Bioware can potentialy loose fan (their market supporters) in a high number, they will likely loose sales when they will release the next product... letting intentionnaly your market being restricted at short and long therm is not a nice news for stockhold that could step in, and ask Bioware to make a product more "in line" with what the customer are used to buy in high number.

Your "artistic" integrity is crippled if the money you get to make your project won't be given unless you do X or Y compromises that will please the stockholder.


Have you ever try to live from YOUR creation ? (being a freelancer i know what's i'm talking about), you have to pay the bills, and care about you wife and childrens, ALL artist in our society is used to compromise, to please themself artisticly and spare room for his customers / clients satisfaction, a happy customer is a returning customer, simple, and there is nothing wrong even for artiste to "please" other, because you are the talent that can fullfile other desire, this always humble me and i can find pleasure and satisfaction in this.

I think you misunderstood "art" that can be found in any creation (doesn't matter if the artists are true to themself or not) with "Personnal Expression".
For personnal expression, hours of work won't matter, what other people will think of it doesn't matter (you are not aiming for a high audiance in first place, it's personnal, even selfish), money to do it doesn't matter (because you work on it during your free time).
Mass Effect is not 1 story from 1 author, it's a team work, but NOT a personnal project, they had deadline, budget limite, listened to the fan feedback over the years to make it better (understanding what other like and why it can make sens is just obvious if you want to please and earn more money), they add to cut corners, deal with their own frustration to not be able to put idea because it's too complicated or not enough ressources left to make it happen in time.

As long as your personnal project remain under your care and sole decision, your "artistic integrity" is at max value, as soon as you are bond with editor or engaged legaly, you have responsability, your artistic integrity start to decrease, but it doesn't mean the final product will be worth, external eyes are welcome, and for artiste rule NUMBER 1 : when you finish a work, you go away from it, to "wash" your mind and you clear your eyes, then you come back LATER (houre, days...) and see if what you are looking at is still what you wanted to do, and you often see things you can improve.

Finaly.
This artistic integrity... is betrayed so often by their creator ... Artist are human, they evolve, they grow, as much as they can decide on day that what they did is not god enough, after month, years, it doesn't reflect the creator's artistic vision anymore.
What about movie that got new scene with improved 3D blablabla, why do you care ? the author thought it is better now, if you don't like, just keep watching the all version, of buy the rights and you will do as you please.

How many artist, among manga for exemple that keep going drawing and tell a story that they have stop to like for years ? but hey ! it's selling well tell the editor, and lot of fan could be decived ...
Akira Toriyama never wanted to pursue Dragon Ball Z for so many year, after it stoped he said what HE realy liked to do was Dr Slump funny stuff, and he is just one of SOOO many. Tsukasa Hojo stoped "Rash" quickly because even his fan didn't liked it.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 22 mars 2012 - 04:51 .

[Drak41n]

Damned commissioned are! That Mona Lisa sure is crap! A true artist would have said, F.U! I'm puttin poop in a can rather than paint your dumb girlfriend!