807 réponses à ce sujet

[Vromrig]

Trying to be funny? wow I guess people are children on this forum, but what I mean is:
Even if I DO want an other ending, I DO realise its selfish.
Why should we force Bioware to change anything?
You must realise we are taking a huge dump on their vision and their work.

Not trying to be funny, pointing out situation presented by you. Attempt to seem paragon, by identifying renegade elements. Even though renegade elements don't exist.

Further, point incorrect in any case. Nothing wrong with criticizing Bioware, setting conditions for future transactions.

Ending was unsatisfactory. In fact, ending so unsatisfactory, makes fans no longer have faith in Bioware.

If Bioware wishes to retain faith, they must overcome the unsatisfactory ending.

It's simple logic.

[JPR1964]

robarcool wrote...

If that half baked ending is artistic, art is ruined in this world.

Well said : I found more art in ME1...

JPR out!

[Thunderfurby]

So Bethesda can alter the ending of their game after the fact and that's all gravy but when we ask the same of Bioware suddenly we're going to destroy the entire creative industry?

Get out.

[KingKhan03]

lol guys it's pretty simple if you liked the ending don't download any ending dlc that may come stick to your space magic one.

[BIO18]

Vromrig wrote...

Trying to be funny? wow I guess people are children on this forum, but what I mean is:
Even if I DO want an other ending, I DO realise its selfish.
Why should we force Bioware to change anything?
You must realise we are taking a huge dump on their vision and their work.

Not trying to be funny, pointing out situation presented by you. Attempt to seem paragon, by identifying renegade elements. Even though renegade elements don't exist.

Further, point incorrect in any case. Nothing wrong with criticizing Bioware, setting conditions for future transactions.

Ending was unsatisfactory. In fact, ending so unsatisfactory, makes fans no longer have faith in Bioware.

If Bioware wishes to retain faith, they must overcome the unsatisfactory ending.

It's simple logic.

So you eat in a restaurent, you don't like a meal. Just out of personal taste, you are intitled to ask them to give you a free dessert ? And change some of the meal?
I still think it lacks respect.

[Jeb231]

The ending wasn't even finalized until november. The IP is six years old.It's hard to defend the artistic vision whn they clearly rushed the conclusion.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

NReed106 wrote...
Your argument is "video games are no longer art" fine believe that. Indeed they aren't, otherwise CoD is an artform and judging by its popularity it is a perfected artform due to its massive sales

Actually, yes, CoD is a form of art, sort of.  A video game is meant to be consumed, played, enjoyed; not hung in a gallery somewhere.  If a game fails to entertain, it can't hide behind artistic vision; it's just a bad game.  CoD, sad though it may be, appeals to its target audience and they are at least satisfied with it.

[Starschwar]

Mass Effect is art, yes - interactive art. The primary emphasis has always been player choice, and its effect on the storyline. There's absolutely no reason the will of the players shouldn't extend beyond the confines on the game itself.

[michael99887766]

BIO18 wrote...
So you eat in a restaurent, you don't like a meal. Just out of personal taste, you are intitled to ask them to give you a free dessert ? And change some of the meal?
I still think it lacks respect.

If they specifically asked for your input in making the meal, yes.

If they said when you arrived, "we will make this meal with the utmost respect for what you want. Would you like your steak rare or well done?", and you said "well done" and it came out bleeding, yes.

If they said "we will serve you steak and chips" and they actually served you a sandwich, yes.

If they promised "we won't give you any ketchup" and then festooned your chips with it, yes.

If it was rubbish in some other way, yes.

Modifié par michael99887766, 22 mars 2012 - 06:21 .

[Cheep Cheep Cheep]

Two words: Broken Steel.

Your argument is invalid.

[cinderburster]

Nefelius wrote...

Tell that to Doyle and Fallout 3 team.

Not to mention Dickens.

The thing about art is that it's never finished.  Ask a professional painter.  I've heard from one (my neighbor, but this being the internet I don't really expect anyone to believe me without proof, which I can't offer) that they're never finished painting.  They just reach a point where they have to take a step back and decide it's good enough and move on to the next project.

Writers often feel the same way.  They write a novel, they tweak it, they re-write entire chapters, and then get it published...

...and sometimes they decide it's not up to their own standards, revise it, and a new edition is published.

Art is changeable.  I'm not sure when people decided it wasn't.

[milkymcmilkerson]

Rascouri wrote...

Shakespear rewrote his plays after they where recieved badly. I do not think that this detracts anything from them. The same can be said for the film industry. This is not an unusual occurance, if anything it should be expected in an industry that moves as quickly as the games industry.

True. Raymond Carver also rewrote a TON of his short stories, one of the revisions becoming, in many's opinion, his best. However, these examples are of artists, writers, etc... who wanted to revise their work because of something they saw wrong with it. The question here is if Bioware wants to do, or if they're just making the change to appease us.

There's a difference there. On one hand you have the creators of the game acknowledging that it's not right, it's not working and want to perfect their story. If the change is coming from this perspective, then all the better. If it's coming from the other one, where they think what they did was awesome, can't understand why we hate but are changing it to make us happy, then don't expect it to be that great because they'll be no heart in it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I was discussing this with my close friend last night. She is an artist. I am a musician/composer. If I ask my friend to create a whatever she does for me, and we agree on a price for the item, I have a right to ask her to make revisions on it if it doesn't meet my expectations, after all I'm the one who commissioned the work. If there are cost overruns in the revisions, we will renegotiate the final cost.

Same with someone who commissions me to write a score for a section of a game or film. I'll do my best, but they also have the right to send it back for revisions. In fact, after seeing the two put together I might want to take it back for revision. If they request the revision and I tell them I will need to make a purchase of additional software I have the right to bill them for those costs. If I choose to make the revisions myself, it's on me.

If I create something on my own terms and decide to sell it on its own merit that is another matter.

The first two are examples of art that is consumed by someone else. Visual and audio arts sold to masses fall under this. They are a product, but it doesn't render them less of an art. Video games also fall under this.

Some artists will continue to refine the product: the performing arts are examples of this. The performing arts aren't a situation where it's a "this is the way I'm doing it take it or leave it." The performer, if they have any artistic integrity continues to strive for improvement. They also know that the better their product the more likely it is for them to make a living doing what they love to do.

But once an artform becomes a publicly held corporation it ceases to be art. The art becomes the bottom line focusing on short term profits of the next quarter. It becomes a consumable product, sorry. You may have paid artists working for the corporation, but they are subject to their corporate masters.

And because they are subject to their corporate masters, we as consumers have the right to demand a better product. Hence, we have the right to demand a better ending to this otherwise fantastic series. You don't give us a story with the energy of "The Seven Samurai" and then end it with the energy of "Anna Karenina". That's just wrong. Thats a kick in the quad.

The story need a heroic ending.

Hold the line.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 22 mars 2012 - 06:26 .

[FortitudeSon]

Since when has Mass Effect ever been a 'conventional story'? That model was tossed out the window the moment we had our first dialogue wheel.

It makes an abrupt and unwelcome return in the last 10 minutes of the game and this is what we're so upset about.

[BIO18]

michael99887766 wrote...

BIO18 wrote...
So you eat in a restaurent, you don't like a meal. Just out of personal taste, you are intitled to ask them to give you a free dessert ? And change some of the meal?
I still think it lacks respect.

If they specifically asked for your input in making the meal, yes.

If they said when you arrived, "we will make this meal with the utmost respect for what you want. Would you like your steak rare or well done?", and you said "well done" and it came out bleeding, yes.

If they said "we will serve you steak and chips" and they actually served you a sandwich, yes.

If they promised "we won't give you any ketchup" and then festooned your chips with it, yes.

If it was rubbish in some other way, yes.

Ugh what ever, did you enjoy mass effect 3?
Yes you did.
Did you see your choices in mass effect 3?
Yes you did.
Did mass effect 3 deliver the intence and epicness they promiss?
Yes they did.
Did you end the reaper invasion like stated 5 years ago?
Yes you did.

I still think that just because we all did not like the 5 last min, we should not forget the great job they did for the game in general.
Did I like the ending?
No I did not.
Do I want them to change?
Yes I do.
Do I still respect their vision and their view of THEIR game even if they don't change the ending?
Yes I will.

We should all at least admit that its really selfish what we are doing. Wether you like it or not.

[Christianswe]

hmmm.. I understand this side of the argument, but i think that we deserve more for the ending.
That´s just my personal opinion. I think that it´s great you love the ending, and want to defend it.
And in this case, also artistic. But the thing is, Bioware promised things in ME 3, the endings in particular. That weren´t there, thats why people are upset. And the whole idea for the mass effect saga is choice, but the whole end to ME3, feels like it´s on rails. And thats just wrong. Again, this is just my opinion. I really hope Bioware adds to the ending.

[wright1978]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I was discussing this with my close friend last night. She is an artist. I am a musician/composer. If I ask my friend to create a whatever she does for me, and we agree on a price for the item, I have a right to ask her to make revisions on it if it doesn't meet my expectations, after all I'm the one who commissioned the work. If there are cost overruns in the revisions, we will renegotiate the final cost.

Same with someone who commissions me to write a score for a section of a game or film. I'll do my best, but they also have the right to send it back for revisions. In fact, after seeing the two put together I might want to take it back for revision. If they request the revision and I tell them I will need to make a purchase of additional software I have the right to bill them for those costs. If I choose to make the revisions myself, it's on me.

If I create something on my own terms and decide to sell it on its own merit that is another matter.

The first two are examples of art that is consumed by someone else. Visual and audio arts sold to masses fall under this. They are a product, but it doesn't render them less of an art. Video games also fall under this.

Some artists will continue to refine the product: the performing arts are examples of this. The performing arts aren't a situation where it's a "this is the way I'm doing it take it or leave it." The performer, if they have any artistic integrity continues to strive for improvement. They also know that the better their product the more likely it is for them to make a living doing what they love to do.

But once an artform becomes a publicly held corporation it ceases to be art. The art becomes the bottom line focusing on short term profits of the next quarter. It becomes a consumable product, sorry. You may have paid artists working for the corporation, but they are subject to their corporate masters.

And because they are subject to their corporate masters, we as consumers have the right to demand a better product. Hence, we have the right to demand a better ending to this otherwise fantastic series. You don't give us a story with the energy of "The Seven Samurai" and then end it with the energy of "Anna Karenina". That's just wrong. Thats a kick in the quad.

The story need a heroic ending.

Hold the line.

Excellent post

[Nial Black-Knee]

You miss the point OP. None of that matters. Art or not? No difference. ALL that matters is if BW wants to lose a huge amount of it's dedicated fans. Thats it. It's come down to a business decsion. What is best for the business that is Bioware. How to move forward with the least amount of backlash.

Nothing else matters for BW, or EA.

Art or not, it's a product, plain and simple. History is rife with examples of businesses that went under because they thought they were better than their customers. Hubris is not a good thing for a business.

[Vromrig]

Cheep Cheep Cheep wrote...

Two words: Broken Steel.

Your argument is invalid.

Why settle here?

Half Life 2.  Portal.

Both cases.

[Warp92]

Nefelius wrote...

Tell that to Doyle and Fallout 3 team.

This.. it's been done before.

[Zing Freelancer]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

All the talk about games being art and people keep forgetting on explaining how games are art on the same level as movies, music, books or paintings. Care to explain?

[Glitch007]

TheRisenStar wrote...

That Charles Dickens, what a sellout he was. He endangered conventional storytelling forever!

^ This made me lol

[Torga_DW]

The OP is right, we can't force bioware to make any changes. Asking them to is arguable. What we can do is not buy their 'art' in future.

[michael99887766]

BIO18 wrote...

michael99887766 wrote...

BIO18 wrote...
So you eat in a restaurent, you don't like a meal. Just out of personal taste, you are intitled to ask them to give you a free dessert ? And change some of the meal?
I still think it lacks respect.

If they specifically asked for your input in making the meal, yes.

If they said when you arrived, "we will make this meal with the utmost respect for what you want. Would you like your steak rare or well done?", and you said "well done" and it came out bleeding, yes.

If they said "we will serve you steak and chips" and they actually served you a sandwich, yes.

If they promised "we won't give you any ketchup" and then festooned your chips with it, yes.

If it was rubbish in some other way, yes.

Ugh what ever, did you enjoy mass effect 3?
Yes you did.
Did you see your choices in mass effect 3?
Yes you did.
Did mass effect 3 deliver the intence and epicness they promiss?
Yes they did.
Did you end the reaper invasion like stated 5 years ago?
Yes you did.

I still think that just because we all did not like the 5 last min, we should not forget the great job they did for the game in general.
Did I like the ending?
No I did not.
Do I want them to change?
Yes I do.
Do I still respect their vision and their view of THEIR game even if they don't change the ending?
Yes I will.

We should all at least admit that its really selfish what we are doing. Wether you like it or not.

I am talking about the ending. To go over these points one by one:

1) Not really, because of the end. In a three-part RPG where story is given great importance, the conclusion is kinda important. Bioware promised that this would deliver for fans, and that it would be impacted by game choices, and it wasn't.

2) Not in the ending I didn't see my choices.

3) No it didn't deliver the epicness because of the ending.

4) Kinda irrelevant. Another way Bioware could have ended the Reapers could be by having a big red button saying "destroy Reapers" randomly pop out of the Normandy halfway through ME3. But that would be awful. I'm not saying that they broke every promise or something, just that they broke several rather substantial ones, rather directly.

I agree with you that we should not forget the great job they did with the rest of ME3 - and I think most people (including me) have been keen to point that out in all our feedback. However, understandably in such an involving, lengthy and story-driven game, the ending was rather important. I'm sure some of the review bombing is excessive, but I think a lot of people quite legitimately feel the game deserves a 30% rating because the ending was such an ill-conceived damp squib which ruined the whole experience. Bioware could not have picked a worse place to drop the ball.

I don't think this is a case of dreaming, arty Bioware storywriters fulfilling their artistic vision, I really don't. I think it was a case of time pressure and poor judgement of what constituted a good conclusion. Can art be in any sense "objectively bad"? It's hard to say. Can 80% of people think that a piece of art is bad, and if they do does this say more about the art than the viewers? Yes, I think it does. And as I and others have said before, art can certainly fail to deliver on what was promised/commissioned: if Bioware couldn't deliver on its promises (i.e. have a fulfilling and diverse set of endings driven by players' choices throughout the story arc) it shouldn't have promised in the first place.

I don't think what Retake is doing is selfish at all. It's just consumers exercising their right to be dissatisfied: Bioware will also do what it wants, and live with the consequences.

Modifié par michael99887766, 22 mars 2012 - 06:46 .

[Phategod1]

asdoorip wrote...

Chill out people.

People like the OP have no clue what's all about. They just saw all the mess, and as the attention seekers//trolls//flamers they are, waste their time trying to burn the forum.

Not rying to burn anything or any one I had a point wanted to get it out there thats all.