807 réponses à ce sujet

[Turtlicious]

If I hire you to paint the los angeles skyline, and you paint me a picture of your ballsack. am I supposed to not ask you to change it?

[BIO18]

@michael99887766

You have your opinion, I have mine.

[Phategod1]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Quick question for you art defenders, specifically those who use movies as a form of artistic integrity. Where do remakes and reboots fit into your definition? By nature they are altering the fiction of their source. I hate to use Micheal Bay as an example but has he not violated this supposed "artistic integrity" with his bastardized versions of Transformers and now Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Their prior lore was long established by their original creators. What makes Bay so different from us fans?

What if twenty years from now someone remade Mass Effect at EA's behest? Would that not infringe on this supposed "artistic integrity" argument if they changed aspect of the story and characters? Oh and before someone attempts the "but they have permission from the creator!" Not in all cases, no, however for argument's sake let us assume so. BioWare gave the fans permission on two separate occasions - first by acknowledging us as "co-creators" and making promises of choice. Secondly, by accepting to change the endings and/or clarify them in lieu of telling us to "Deal with it."

Thats completely different, Its not like Warner Bros stopped selling Tim burton's  Batman movie when Christopher Nolan released Batman Begins, they did not change the original product at all. 

[GammaRayJim]

michael99887766 wrote...

BIO18 wrote...

michael99887766 wrote...

BIO18 wrote...
So you eat in a restaurent, you don't like a meal. Just out of personal taste, you are intitled to ask them to give you a free dessert ? And change some of the meal?
I still think it lacks respect.

If they specifically asked for your input in making the meal, yes.

If they said when you arrived, "we will make this meal with the utmost respect for what you want. Would you like your steak rare or well done?", and you said "well done" and it came out bleeding, yes.

If they said "we will serve you steak and chips" and they actually served you a sandwich, yes.

If they promised "we won't give you any ketchup" and then festooned your chips with it, yes.

If it was rubbish in some other way, yes.

Ugh what ever, did you enjoy mass effect 3?
Yes you did.
Did you see your choices in mass effect 3?
Yes you did.
Did mass effect 3 deliver the intence and epicness they promiss?
Yes they did.
Did you end the reaper invasion like stated 5 years ago?
Yes you did.

I still think that just because we all did not like the 5 last min, we should not forget the great job they did for the game in general.
Did I like the ending?
No I did not.
Do I want them to change?
Yes I do.
Do I still respect their vision and their view of THEIR game even if they don't change the ending?
Yes I will.

We should all at least admit that its really selfish what we are doing. Wether you like it or not.

I am talking about the ending. To go over these points one by one:

1) Not really, because of the end. In a three-part RPG where story is given great importance, the conclusion is kinda important. Bioware promised that this would deliver for fans, and that it would be impacted by game choices, and it wasn't.

2) Not in the ending I didn't see my choices.

3) No it didn't deliver the epicness because of the ending.

4) Kinda irrelevant. Another way Bioware could have ended the Reapers could be by having a big red button saying "destroy Reapers" randomly pop out of the Normandy halfway through ME3. But that would be awful. I'm not saying that they broke every promise or something, just that they broke several rather substantial ones, rather directly.

I agree with you that we should not forget the great job they did with the rest of ME3 - and I think most people (including me) have been keen to point that out in all our feedback. However, understandably in such an involving, lengthy and story-driven game, the ending was rather important. I'm sure some of the review bombing is excessive, but I think a lot of people quite legitimately feel the game deserves a 30% rating because the ending was such an ill-conceived damp squib which ruined the whole experience. Bioware could not have picked a worse place to drop the ball.

I don't think this is a case of dreaming, arty Bioware storywriters fulfilling their artistic vision, I really don't. I think it was a case of time pressure and poor judgement of what constituted a good conclusion. Can art be in any sense "objectively bad"? It's hard to say. Can 80% of people think that a piece of art is bad, and if they do does this say more about the art than the viewers? Yes, I think it does. And as I and others have said before, art can certainly fail to deliver on what was promised/commissioned: if Bioware couldn't deliver on its promises (i.e. have a fulfilling and diverse set of endings driven by players' choices throughout the story arc) it shouldn't have promised in the first place.

I don't think what Retake is doing is selfish at all. It's just consumers exercising their right to be dissatisfied: Bioware will also do what it wants, and live with the consequences.

Can someone please tell me what choices are not appearing at the end of the game?

I cured the genophage Taurians and Krogan were there, the Salarians were not because of this. I saved the kids, scientist and the list goes on from Cerebus and they were all there. I am somewhat confused as to what choices we make during the game are not appearing in the ending. I didn't get the Shepard on the planet taking a breathe ending because appearently I didn't do something right in the previous games and I wasn't able to secure enough resources. Oh yeah it was a Tali situation and I could not get the Quarians to back down from the war with the Geth so they were destroyed but the Geth joined me, and they were there at the end.

It seemed every decision I made in game played itself out to where it was supposed to....the first 95% of this game was just about getting everyone to Earth that you could and I believe we all did that. Are you all believing that your choices don't matter because all of the color choices make gathering the army irrelevant? Well we all should have known that the success of this was always going to fall on Shepard, the Reapers were always a superior force. 

[Phategod1]

nitefyre410 wrote...

johhnytrash wrote...

Hey OP, where was Bioware's artistic integrity when they put up the default look for Femshep up for a vote?

 

Damn... Win... so much win... 

In game where your incouraged you make your own character, does it really matter? I have never used Sheploo or the default female shepard. 

[Silveralen]

Vromrig wrote...

Cheep Cheep Cheep wrote...

Two words: Broken Steel.

Your argument is invalid.

Why settle here?

Half Life 2.  Portal.

Both cases.

Both of which were done because fans loved the series and wanted it to continue. Valve is an amazing company. On their forms, we can mock the lead developers nad owners of the company and the know it is all in good fun. That'd be Gabe "I ate episode three" Newell, or Robin "HATTTTTTTTS" Walker. No one gets their feelings hurt. WE critizice their games, we mock them for Valve time, and they take it in stride, even going so far as to laugh and make jokes about it themselves. They have an amazing relationship to the fanbase, becaue they cultivate it.

Bioware, maybe try doing that? Instead of acting like this entire thing is an attack on you and your vision of the game, take it in stride. Stop with these passive agressive mildly insulting statments, where you give us half hearted "concessions" after we twisted your arm.

[x-Killision-X]

Ever hear of music being remixed. There is even a techno remix of Beethoven music (which is terrible in my opinion). Music is considered art yet is changed/remixed/edited all the time. How about movies getting alternate endings. Look at I Am Legend and The Guardian. Both have alternate ending on the disc (blu-ray) and were never asked for by fans. What about rebooting franchises which has become popular in the last few years. Ninja Gaiden as an example was hailed as one of the best action games and still is IMO. Many forms of art are revisited and expanded or changed.  Why should gaming be diffrent.

Modifié par x-Killision-X, 22 mars 2012 - 07:04 .

[Foxcat]

 I'll keep it simple OP.  No.

[Phategod1]

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow it really boggles my mind that people can honestly compare themselves to the Catholic Church who commissioned/hired Micheangelo to paint/sculpt ect... to themselves as having hired BioWare to write/produce ME3. The Church as said patron had every right to determine what the artwork would represent because they approved preliminary sketches. Please don't think that he just painted whatever he felt like.

Quit deluding yourselves you didn't hire them you purchased their mass produced artwork. Much like buying a poster of said famous work of art you bought a copy of someones artistic vision and because you don't like the ending you feel ripped off. But no one forced you to buy it and you in no way hired them to make it for you, you chose to go along for the ride.

I think I'll just quote this from now on. 

[Mister Mida]

Phategod1 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow it really boggles my mind that people can honestly compare themselves to the Catholic Church who commissioned/hired Micheangelo to paint/sculpt ect... to themselves as having hired BioWare to write/produce ME3. The Church as said patron had every right to determine what the artwork would represent because they approved preliminary sketches. Please don't think that he just painted whatever he felt like.

Quit deluding yourselves you didn't hire them you purchased their mass produced artwork. Much like buying a poster of said famous work of art you bought a copy of someones artistic vision and because you don't like the ending you feel ripped off. But no one forced you to buy it and you in no way hired them to make it for you, you chose to go along for the ride.

I think I'll just quote this from now on. 

Is that admission of defeat I see?

[Silveralen]

Phategod1 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow it really boggles my mind that people can honestly compare themselves to the Catholic Church who commissioned/hired Micheangelo to paint/sculpt ect... to themselves as having hired BioWare to write/produce ME3. The Church as said patron had every right to determine what the artwork would represent because they approved preliminary sketches. Please don't think that he just painted whatever he felt like.

Quit deluding yourselves you didn't hire them you purchased their mass produced artwork. Much like buying a poster of said famous work of art you bought a copy of someones artistic vision and because you don't like the ending you feel ripped off. But no one forced you to buy it and you in no way hired them to make it for you, you chose to go along for the ride.

I think I'll just quote this from now on. 

You gonna talk about the part where they promised us one poster, gave us another (and we had no way of knowing ahead of time the poster wouldn't be what they promised) and then told us the new poster was their artistic vision, if we didn't like it to bad.

Did you guys really forget about the rampant blatant lies?

[GammaRayJim]

Turtlicious wrote...

If I hire you to paint the los angeles skyline, and you paint me a picture of your ballsack. am I supposed to not ask you to change it?

No you have every right to get what want from someone you hired. Point is we did not hire BioWare to paint this picture, they created something we choose to buy it. It's like going to an art show, artists have paintings on display and you buy one as is end of sale. If you like the artists style but not what they have on display you can discuss commissioning a piece of work that suits what you are looking for, but I think you would be hard pressed to find an artist who would alter an already completed piece of work. I could be wrong in this but as an artist myself I know I wouldn't, I would paint you something new to your specifications/liking but would not change something that was already for sale.

[Phategod1]

I wish I could stay here and read all theses responses if this thread is alive in kicking in 12 hours I'll come back until then later and one thing . BETHESDA CHANGED THE ENDING SO YOU COULD PLAY DLC AFTER THE GAME WAS OVER.

[Sylvianus]

Oh please, stop the drama * roll eyes *

[HaesoME3]

Dusty Arne wrote...

Totally agree OP,

Now i just hope they are not 'altering" the end, but release more information about "why" they did it like they did.

I dont want Bioware to be forced in to a road they wern't planning to go.

I absolutely want to force them to do something they don't want to do if it means removing this abortion of an ending. People make mistakes, bioware made a mistake. They are not infallible. When you hold something as sacrosanct, as beyond reproach you simply accept mediocrity. Anything can be made better - just some things have more room for improvement, like the ending.

[Dhraconus]

Phategod1 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow it really boggles my mind that people can honestly compare themselves to the Catholic Church who commissioned/hired Micheangelo to paint/sculpt ect... to themselves as having hired BioWare to write/produce ME3. The Church as said patron had every right to determine what the artwork would represent because they approved preliminary sketches. Please don't think that he just painted whatever he felt like.

Quit deluding yourselves you didn't hire them you purchased their mass produced artwork. Much like buying a poster of said famous work of art you bought a copy of someones artistic vision and because you don't like the ending you feel ripped off. But no one forced you to buy it and you in no way hired them to make it for you, you chose to go along for the ride.

I think I'll just quote this from now on. 

There's an important difference between a game and a poster:

I can preview the ENTIRE poster before I purchase.  I don't have to buy a poster on the word of the artist that it's <insert whatever> only to get home and find out it's something completely different.

As for the OP... Conventional Story Telling?  WHAT?

First of all it's a game, nothing conventional about it.  Second of all if it IS supposed to be conventional story telling there are rules about that.  Look around the forums for the posts that analyze the ending from a literary perspective.  The ending fails.  It is BAD from an artistic standpoint.  It would ruin conventional story telling to accept this ending as good and suggest others should use it as a shining example to be aimed at.

[AlexXIV]

OP, welcome to reality, games are products. Not art, never been. There may be some artistic value in story telling, but video games as such have never been art. And they never will be 'pure art'. Only to a certain extend if at all.

If you don't believe that video games are a product, go ask their marketing department. What exactly is the differnce between selling for example sunblocker or video games. It has nothing to do with art.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2012 - 07:20 .

[Xander98]

For all you people claiming freedom of speech, I want to clear something up. That right is given to you for protection from the government. No private party is bound to the rights of freedom of speech and they therefore can "infringe" upon them as much as they like on their property/servers/forums/websites/games.

edit: the last 5min of the game do not make this game "something completely different." Your choices did impact the races and universe in meaningful ways in relation to mordin, the krogan, etc.

Modifié par Xander98, 22 mars 2012 - 07:17 .

[BearcatPrideEZF]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

I don't care if I get banned again, TL;DR

Hold the line.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

Its not an artistic vision when the game's foundation is based on player choice, then the ending offers no choice. thats just a betrayal of the brand.

[Devils-DIVISION]

This has already been discussed. You simply cannot get away with plot holes, unanswered questions, lack of closure, illogical inconsistencies and broken promises, by calling it art.

[Visserian99]

Look at the end of the day, I approve the idea of artistic integrity and artistic expression. I do believe that an artist has to be able to do these things to further human experience and make us understand and feel various emotions we might not otherwise have. Whether it be through writing, acting, painting, music, or what have you. Artistic expression is important. Here's the rub though, during the ending Bioware failed.

Mind you, I said during the ending. During the game proper, they succeeded beautifully. You can't go through this or various other forums without people tripping over themselves saying how much they loved certain scenes. People lining up to say how they cried during Mordin's sacrifice. Seeing the depths of their friendship with Garrus during the "shoot the bottles" scene in the Citadel. The "we are never coming back are we?" conversations with your squad before the final push. Bioware was looking to evoke these emotions in us and they succeeded wonderfully.

The ending however, fell flat. No emotion was evoked. I didn't understand at first what they were trying to say with the ending. The more I thought about it, the more confusion sets in. As I thought about the ramifications of what happened during the ending, 'confusion' over Joker fleeing, over Shepard's non-reaction to the twisted logic presented to him, over the fate of the galaxy now that the relay system is gone. And the more I thought about it, the more confusing and nonsensical the ending became.

Now think I can understand what they were trying to evoke during their ending. They were trying to have Shepard go out in a blaze of glory. They wanted use to see relief of a freed earth as well as the understand the devastation its has gone through. And they wanted us to think of it as a 'brave new world' scenario with the relays gone, and our squad looking into the future. This is what I THINK they were trying to evoke. The sad part is they failed, cause I'm not entirely certain. The only emotion I felt at the end, was at first 'nothing' and like I said, that gave way to confusion.

I'm fairly certain that this isn't the emotion that Bioware was looking for. So yes, it does need to be changed. From an artistic standpoint. If an artist doesn't get the emotional reaction they are going for, then they alter their performance or work until they do. Its the way it works.

Ok long rant over.

[Cheep Cheep Cheep]

Phategod1 wrote...

I wish I could stay here and read all theses responses if this thread is alive in kicking in 12 hours I'll come back until then later and one thing . BETHESDA CHANGED THE ENDING SO YOU COULD PLAY DLC AFTER THE GAME WAS OVER.

While there may be a glimmer of truth to what you said, that isn't the entire truth. Observe:

- What was the main inspiration for the development of this DLC? 

The main inspiration was actually from feedback we received from the gaming community. People seemed a bit disappointed at the current ending for the game, since you were no longer able to explore the Wasteland when the Main Quest came to a close. Looking back at all our previous products such as The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (which does not have a finite ending), we felt we should “open up” the ending to Fallout 3 and keep the Wasteland free to explore at all times. 

[/i]http://planetfallout...Steel-Interview 

So, no. It wasn't just to shill out more DLC.. considering that you can play all DLC without even having to do the main quest, with the exception of Broken Steel quests for obvious reasons.

Bethesda took fan feedback. Analyzed it. Decided to do a better ending. Something Bioware should do. 

[GammaRayJim]

Silveralen wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow it really boggles my mind that people can honestly compare themselves to the Catholic Church who commissioned/hired Micheangelo to paint/sculpt ect... to themselves as having hired BioWare to write/produce ME3. The Church as said patron had every right to determine what the artwork would represent because they approved preliminary sketches. Please don't think that he just painted whatever he felt like.

Quit deluding yourselves you didn't hire them you purchased their mass produced artwork. Much like buying a poster of said famous work of art you bought a copy of someones artistic vision and because you don't like the ending you feel ripped off. But no one forced you to buy it and you in no way hired them to make it for you, you chose to go along for the ride.

I think I'll just quote this from now on. 

You gonna talk about the part where they promised us one poster, gave us another (and we had no way of knowing ahead of time the poster wouldn't be what they promised) and then told us the new poster was their artistic vision, if we didn't like it to bad.

Did you guys really forget about the rampant blatant lies?

I think they delivered on an epic game...mostly everyone agrees that 90-95% of this game was outstanding. Did the ending leave something to be desired it can be argued yes...just look at the page after page on this topic. So I am not going to agrue its merits as this was not the gist of this thread. Did they lie, I don't know, does a movie promoter lie when the put together a trailer for a movie showing how epic it is and then it bombs. Food for thought not any movie that I know of has been recalled after release and reshot because it failed to deliver. And lets remember most if not all movies are preshown to test audiences and crap still makes it to the big screen. 

[GammaRayJim]

Dhraconus wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow it really boggles my mind that people can honestly compare themselves to the Catholic Church who commissioned/hired Micheangelo to paint/sculpt ect... to themselves as having hired BioWare to write/produce ME3. The Church as said patron had every right to determine what the artwork would represent because they approved preliminary sketches. Please don't think that he just painted whatever he felt like.

Quit deluding yourselves you didn't hire them you purchased their mass produced artwork. Much like buying a poster of said famous work of art you bought a copy of someones artistic vision and because you don't like the ending you feel ripped off. But no one forced you to buy it and you in no way hired them to make it for you, you chose to go along for the ride.

I think I'll just quote this from now on. 

There's an important difference between a game and a poster:

I can preview the ENTIRE poster before I purchase.  I don't have to buy a poster on the word of the artist that it's <insert whatever> only to get home and find out it's something completely different.

As for the OP... Conventional Story Telling?  WHAT?

First of all it's a game, nothing conventional about it.  Second of all if it IS supposed to be conventional story telling there are rules about that.  Look around the forums for the posts that analyze the ending from a literary perspective.  The ending fails.  It is BAD from an artistic standpoint.  It would ruin conventional story telling to accept this ending as good and suggest others should use it as a shining example to be aimed at.

Fair enough but you go to movies and buy books with out knowing the ending.....