807 réponses à ce sujet

[BaladasDemnevanni]

GammaRayJim wrote...

 A few minutes of crap should not invalidate how much fun and enjoyable the whole rest of the trilogy was.

It easily can. Obviously it varies from person to person, but there is no "one size fits all", on the question of whether it invalidates the experience.

[Aurvant]

I suppose by the OP's logic we should have just left well enough alone when that ridiculously terrible Mass Effect book was released shortly before the game. I guess we should have left all that terrible writing alone in the face of "artistic integrity".

[demin8891]

[GammaRayJim]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

 A few minutes of crap should not invalidate how much fun and enjoyable the whole rest of the trilogy was.

It easily can. Obviously it varies from person to person, but there is no "one size fits all", on the question of whether it invalidates the experience.

Wow ok that's a shame for the people that feel this way....to let a couple hours of the ending erase all the enjoyment of the previous hundreds....wow. That's sad.

[Vromrig]

Wow ok that's a shame for the people that feel this way....to let a couple hours of the ending erase all the enjoyment of the previous hundreds....wow. That's sad.

Already addressed this issue.

Enjoyment of game dependent upon continuation of decisions, or at least actions.

Example: cure genophage. Hope for Krogan future.

Now no hope, Krogan have no future, whether genophage cured or not.

All actions futile, galaxy rebooted in any case.

[GammaRayJim]

Vromrig wrote...

Wow ok that's a shame for the people that feel this way....to let a couple hours of the ending erase all the enjoyment of the previous hundreds....wow. That's sad.

Already addressed this issue.

Enjoyment of game dependent upon continuation of decisions, or at least actions.

Example: cure genophage. Hope for Krogan future.

Now no hope, Krogan have no future, whether genophage cured or not.

All actions futile, galaxy rebooted in any case.

You are only assuming they have no future I am sure not every Krogan travelled to Earth to fight. Quit waiting for BioWare to tell you what happened to everyone...imagine it yourselves be an actual co-creator and you decide how the galaxy unfolded after your choice. They show us that someone survived....

[demin8891]

So, wait, wait. They promised to tell us a story with a satisfying ending, yes?

So now,when they have failed to give us a satisfying ending, your solution is to headcanon everything or get a high-ranking writing position at BioWare instead of demand the product we were promised?

Modifié par demin8891, 22 mars 2012 - 10:18 .

[Vromrig]

You are only assuming they have no future I am sure not every Krogan travelled to Earth to fight. Quit waiting for BioWare to tell you what happened to everyone...imagine it yourselves be an actual co-creator and you decide how the galaxy unfolded after your choice. They show us that someone survived....

Weak argument, unsupported by game. Only logical conclusion that most societies die off, presumably through starvation due to dependence on galactic network.

Tuchunka unsustainable. Sudden disappearance of all Mass Relays annihilates galactic civilization.

Silly argument posed.

[Silveralen]

GammaRayJim wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Wow ok that's a shame for the people that feel this way....to let a couple hours of the ending erase all the enjoyment of the previous hundreds....wow. That's sad.

Already addressed this issue.

Enjoyment of game dependent upon continuation of decisions, or at least actions.

Example: cure genophage. Hope for Krogan future.

Now no hope, Krogan have no future, whether genophage cured or not.

All actions futile, galaxy rebooted in any case.

You are only assuming they have no future I am sure not every Krogan travelled to Earth to fight. Quit waiting for BioWare to tell you what happened to everyone...imagine it yourselves be an actual co-creator and you decide how the galaxy unfolded after your choice. They show us that someone survived....

Everything we saw indicated this. What happened to the only other mass relay to be destroyed in the cannon wiped out the entire system it was present in.

So in order to do that I have to make up a reason that wouldn't occur. My reason would have no backing, just something I came up wit to justify it. Which is silly.

Also, Garrus and Tali starve to death afte the Normandy crash lands, the can't survive on the same foods I believe, and a world should not posess both types. So actually they could live, but everyone else on the normandy wouldn't.

If I am going to make up an ending in my head, I'll just pretend start child was a dream. But honestly, you think I should just close my eyes and pretend real hard that something happened when it logicaly wouldn't?

[GammaRayJim]

demin8891 wrote...

So, wait, wait. They promised to tell us a story with a satisfying ending, yes?

So now,when they have failed to give us a satisfying ending, your solution is to headcanon everything or get a high-ranking writing position at BioWare instead of demand the product we were promised?

Just saying that I fail doesn't make it so...but I will humor you and no I am not an author looking to write for BioWare. All I am saying is that you better be prepared to not be satisfied with what they choose to do because a lot of you won't. You built up in yourself this belief that because you got them to cave on this you can demand answers to every little question you have about the ending. But it's not going to happen.

I replied as I did because we all know that not all the Krogan went to Earth, so to blatantly say that the Krogan have no hope is just plain foolishness. And what about those who choose not to cure the genophage but to trick the Krogan instead, I guess they need an epiloge telling them that the Krogan went extinct.  Some people survived and carried on the human race or synthetic depending on your choice as evidenced by Gramps and kid.

If that's headcanon (haha like that term) then so be it. I for one do not need everything spelled out for me in black and white, for those of you who do more power to ya. Unfortunately it will only lead to more dissappointment for some because it is not how they imagined it to end...even after they fix it. And this will rage on ad infinitum....

[wook77]

GammaRayJim wrote...

wook77 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...
*SNIP* .

History lesson time! It wasn't the Church and the Pope that asked for the changes to the Sistine Chapel - it was general members of the audience, the clergy and laity, that asked for additions to the artwork. It was the Church that then commissioned the endings to satisfy the audience. It's an example of artwork being changed at the behest of the audience even when the owner of the artwork didn't want changes. The owners did it to satisfy their audience.

Or do you think that the Church wouldn't have responded to requests from their audience? Because if Botticelli had added Jesus lighting his farts on fire, I'm quite certain that the audience would've hated it and the Church would've insisted on changes.

And trust me, with the ending of ME3 - I would never say ME3 is the Sistine Chapel of video games.

In addition - I bought the game based on promises made by EA/BioWare. I do not think the game reached those promises. So telling me that no one forced me to buy the game is sort of ridiculous. Sure, no one forced me but they told me one thing and gave me another. To use your poster reference - it's like I bought a poster for Star Wars and ended up with one for Spaceballs. Sure, they're both in space and, sure, they both have large black helmets in them but, in the end, they're different products that sort of look similar but aren't.

Finally - pretending that market needs and demands don't drive what video games are produced is very shortsighted. The market drives production. Video game manufacturers manufacture games to sell them, they don't make them in a vacuum only to keep them at home. They put them on shelves to sell to the market. If they do not sell, that's it for that game. It's yanked off the market, never to see the light of day again. Art produced for art's sake normally results in the artist starving in his/her little attic loft. I somehow doubt that a large, multi-national corporation would be all right with bleeding money to that point.

Hahaha you're kidding right. The Church commissioned Micheangelo and approved of his concept and had him paint it. They did not respond to any request from their audience as the were/are to pretentious to consider the opinions of the laiety. They got what they wanted because that's what they hired him for. And i only used this example because someone else had started with it and only as a framing of what is the difference between commissioned and off the rack purchase.

I think you like most people bought the game not based on any promises from BioWare but because you enjoyed the previous two games and you wished to know the outcome. And because you were not happy with said outcome you are understandably pissed off. But quit trying to convince people that they sold you and everyone else a false bill of goods, the ending was crap but the rest of the game was stellar. A few minutes of crap should not invalidate how much fun and enjoyable the whole rest of the trilogy was. I just hope that whatever they decide to do with the ending it meets everyones expectations...somehow I have a feeling it won't. Ah but that's art can't please everyone.

And as for the market driving production never claimed it didn't but as long as we continue to buy games on the release day because we are going to get a bonus pack of goods or some other item to entice us and not wait for real actual end user reviews then shame on us. Because any company worth it's salt is going to package and promote its' product in the best possible light and with a track record like BioWare we tend to believe them at face value. Maybe that's something that needs to change on our end.

Haha, no, I'm not kidding. Michaelangelo isn't the only painter of the Sistine Chapel. Other artists came in, after him, upon audience request, to paint more. Sure, the Church paid for the additions but they still made additions to the original artwork. For example, Botticelli also painted parts of the Sistine Chapel. So, to, did other artists. This is not the work of just Michaelangelo. See, the audience saw the beginnings and went "wait a second, it doesn't show all of our dogma! We need more!" and the Church said "oh, good point, let's add to it" and then paid other artists to add to the artwork already there. A quick google would give you that history (and, to be honest, you having no idea that other artists worked on the Sistine Chapel doesn't really help your position very much).

And, actually, I didn't truly enjoy the first two games. I loathe shooters but played through them because I liked the characters. But I wouldn't say that I enjoyed playing them. They were a real struggle to get through and I almost gave up quite a few times. I also didn't really enjoy not getting to play an LGBT relationship. I was a bit annoyed that the Kaidan/m!Shep relationship was hacked out of the game. Instead, I've played through each game once and read a lot of fanfiction, instead.

However, Bioware promised me that my choices mattered and they also promised me "storymode". I got the storymode, and enjoyed the heck out of it, but I didn't enjoy that my choices didn't matter. I also didn't enjoy that I didn't import my previous playthrough but got the same ending as a friend that did. That tells me that the previous decisions didn't matter.

They promised me that I wouldn't have to do multiplayer and, yet, I found myself dragging down others with my pisspoor aim in multiplayer (and many many apologies to those that just gave up on me and stopped trying to revive me because I suck so badly) because I needed multiplayer to get the ending that I wanted.

They promised me LGBT relationships and I enjoyed the heck out of them. I liked romancing Cortez AND Kaidan as a male!shepard. I had been looking forward to romancing Traynor as a femme!shepard.

I don't expect the additional DLC to please everyone. And that's cool. But at least there would be an ending (whatever ending they want to write), which is what I'm asking for. To me, the game is the same as watching LOTR the whole way through and then Aragorn gives his rousing speech "for Frodo" and then, just as he's charging ... a screen comes up and says "Buy our DLC coming soon!". I'm not asking for happy ever after but I support those that do (and, tbh, would play the heck outta it). I'm not asking for anything other than some sort of ending.

As far as changing opinion on BioWare, I have to admit that I have. I will not be buying their products until they've been reviewed by people other than IGN, GameInformer and their ilk. I auto-bought BioWare titles and I think I'm in the minority in these threads, but I actually liked DA2 so I had no problems pre-ordering ME3. Depending on their continued response to this issue, I might put BioWare back on my auto-buy list but, for now, they're not there. I wish they were since they do so many awesome things for equality issues in gaming. I loved that my copy of ME3 has femme!Shep on the cover and I loved that the advertisements showed femme!shep and I loved that LGBT relationships were added. I want to love BioWare again.

[Skyblade012]

Congratulations You have ruined conventional; storytelling in games for the future

I completely agree. BioWare resorted to a literal deus ex machina. Setting stortelling back over 2500 years.

How could you, BioWare? How could you?

[Yuoaman]

Skyblade012 wrote...

Congratulations You have ruined conventional; storytelling in games for the future

I completely agree. BioWare resorted to a literal deus ex machina. Setting stortelling back over 2500 years.

How could you, BioWare? How could you?

I know, right?

[papapwnzone]

Damn it, now I won't be able to get to see new sweet movies like Inception or The Happening with the mind blowing twisty endings that no one can grasp because their minds aren't all big and huge!

[GammaRayJim]

Vromrig wrote...

You are only assuming they have no future I am sure not every Krogan travelled to Earth to fight. Quit waiting for BioWare to tell you what happened to everyone...imagine it yourselves be an actual co-creator and you decide how the galaxy unfolded after your choice. They show us that someone survived....

Weak argument, unsupported by game. Only logical conclusion that most societies die off, presumably through starvation due to dependence on galactic network.

Tuchunka unsustainable. Sudden disappearance of all Mass Relays annihilates galactic civilization.

Silly argument posed.

The game is over what happens after does not have to be supported by the game because it is intentionally left open. And that's great using your imagination here logically concluding that most societies die off...excellent ending. Some didn't as shown by Gramps and the kid. Also I feel you give the Krogan too little credit they are a hardy race who can now reproduce unhindered by the genophage apparently at an alarming rate. And we saw areas of Tuchunka returning to normalcy so anything is possible. Also just because the mass relays are gone FTL drives are not so other planets are still within reach of the space faring races....lots of possibilities.

[Arokel]

Dickens did it.

Doyle did it.

Bethesda did it.

BioWare can do it.

[elferin91]

why can't you just let this thread die

[Phearmonger]

Karrie788 wrote...

This is not unprecedented. Bethesda was humble enough to recognize the ending to Fallout 3 was rubbish and changed it. Bioware can do the same if they judge that the fans may have a point. The ball is in their camp.

I keep hearing about this and it's simply not true. The ending had to be changed so the game would continue after the end of the main plot. It started out as the character sacrificing his life for the cause, and ended up as waking up two weeks later with some miraculous "even though you were exposed to lethal levels of radiation you somehow got through it" explanation. The ending only became rubbish after they changed it, but by then it was the middle and I was just happy to continue the game so I didn't worry too much about it. The ending itself wasn't the problem, except for the fact that the radiation resistant Fawkes should have been able to do it but gives some lame reason why he can't. The problem was that the game ended right there. This is in no way to be construed as support for ME3's current ending, just addressing a misconception that keeps flying around.

[GammaRayJim]

wook77 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

wook77 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...
*SNIP* .

History lesson time! It wasn't the Church and the Pope that asked for the changes to the Sistine Chapel - it was general members of the audience, the clergy and laity, that asked for additions to the artwork. It was the Church that then commissioned the endings to satisfy the audience. It's an example of artwork being changed at the behest of the audience even when the owner of the artwork didn't want changes. The owners did it to satisfy their audience.

Or do you think that the Church wouldn't have responded to requests from their audience? Because if Botticelli had added Jesus lighting his farts on fire, I'm quite certain that the audience would've hated it and the Church would've insisted on changes.

And trust me, with the ending of ME3 - I would never say ME3 is the Sistine Chapel of video games.

In addition - I bought the game based on promises made by EA/BioWare. I do not think the game reached those promises. So telling me that no one forced me to buy the game is sort of ridiculous. Sure, no one forced me but they told me one thing and gave me another. To use your poster reference - it's like I bought a poster for Star Wars and ended up with one for Spaceballs. Sure, they're both in space and, sure, they both have large black helmets in them but, in the end, they're different products that sort of look similar but aren't.

Finally - pretending that market needs and demands don't drive what video games are produced is very shortsighted. The market drives production. Video game manufacturers manufacture games to sell them, they don't make them in a vacuum only to keep them at home. They put them on shelves to sell to the market. If they do not sell, that's it for that game. It's yanked off the market, never to see the light of day again. Art produced for art's sake normally results in the artist starving in his/her little attic loft. I somehow doubt that a large, multi-national corporation would be all right with bleeding money to that point.

Hahaha you're kidding right. The Church commissioned Micheangelo and approved of his concept and had him paint it. They did not respond to any request from their audience as the were/are to pretentious to consider the opinions of the laiety. They got what they wanted because that's what they hired him for. And i only used this example because someone else had started with it and only as a framing of what is the difference between commissioned and off the rack purchase.

I think you like most people bought the game not based on any promises from BioWare but because you enjoyed the previous two games and you wished to know the outcome. And because you were not happy with said outcome you are understandably pissed off. But quit trying to convince people that they sold you and everyone else a false bill of goods, the ending was crap but the rest of the game was stellar. A few minutes of crap should not invalidate how much fun and enjoyable the whole rest of the trilogy was. I just hope that whatever they decide to do with the ending it meets everyones expectations...somehow I have a feeling it won't. Ah but that's art can't please everyone.

And as for the market driving production never claimed it didn't but as long as we continue to buy games on the release day because we are going to get a bonus pack of goods or some other item to entice us and not wait for real actual end user reviews then shame on us. Because any company worth it's salt is going to package and promote its' product in the best possible light and with a track record like BioWare we tend to believe them at face value. Maybe that's something that needs to change on our end.

Haha, no, I'm not kidding. Michaelangelo isn't the only painter of the Sistine Chapel. Other artists came in, after him, upon audience request, to paint more. Sure, the Church paid for the additions but they still made additions to the original artwork. For example, Botticelli also painted parts of the Sistine Chapel. So, to, did other artists. This is not the work of just Michaelangelo. See, the audience saw the beginnings and went "wait a second, it doesn't show all of our dogma! We need more!" and the Church said "oh, good point, let's add to it" and then paid other artists to add to the artwork already there. A quick google would give you that history (and, to be honest, you having no idea that other artists worked on the Sistine Chapel doesn't really help your position very much).

And, actually, I didn't truly enjoy the first two games. I loathe shooters but played through them because I liked the characters. But I wouldn't say that I enjoyed playing them. They were a real struggle to get through and I almost gave up quite a few times. I also didn't really enjoy not getting to play an LGBT relationship. I was a bit annoyed that the Kaidan/m!Shep relationship was hacked out of the game. Instead, I've played through each game once and read a lot of fanfiction, instead.

However, Bioware promised me that my choices mattered and they also promised me "storymode". I got the storymode, and enjoyed the heck out of it, but I didn't enjoy that my choices didn't matter. I also didn't enjoy that I didn't import my previous playthrough but got the same ending as a friend that did. That tells me that the previous decisions didn't matter.

They promised me that I wouldn't have to do multiplayer and, yet, I found myself dragging down others with my pisspoor aim in multiplayer (and many many apologies to those that just gave up on me and stopped trying to revive me because I suck so badly) because I needed multiplayer to get the ending that I wanted.

They promised me LGBT relationships and I enjoyed the heck out of them. I liked romancing Cortez AND Kaidan as a male!shepard. I had been looking forward to romancing Traynor as a femme!shepard.

I don't expect the additional DLC to please everyone. And that's cool. But at least there would be an ending (whatever ending they want to write), which is what I'm asking for. To me, the game is the same as watching LOTR the whole way through and then Aragorn gives his rousing speech "for Frodo" and then, just as he's charging ... a screen comes up and says "Buy our DLC coming soon!". I'm not asking for happy ever after but I support those that do (and, tbh, would play the heck outta it). I'm not asking for anything other than some sort of ending.

As far as changing opinion on BioWare, I have to admit that I have. I will not be buying their products until they've been reviewed by people other than IGN, GameInformer and their ilk. I auto-bought BioWare titles and I think I'm in the minority in these threads, but I actually liked DA2 so I had no problems pre-ordering ME3. Depending on their continued response to this issue, I might put BioWare back on my auto-buy list but, for now, they're not there. I wish they were since they do so many awesome things for equality issues in gaming. I loved that my copy of ME3 has femme!Shep on the cover and I loved that the advertisements showed femme!shep and I loved that LGBT relationships were added. I want to love BioWare again.

Never claimed that no one else worked on the chapel but you should check again also because he did do the ceiling which is the most famous all the other artist worked on the walls, which were based on Michelangelo illustrations. Again and thus my point being that Church commissioned him to do this there was no audience involvement. He didn't finish what he started and thus others were brought in to complete it. As for the rest of your post it sounds like you got quite a bit of what you were looking for, lots of games out there plenty of companies to choose from. But they will all change as employees come and go throughout the course of their existence.

[Heretic19]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

Yet still cannot differentiate the your's

[Egonne]

GammaRayJim wrote...

....lots of possibilities.

If you put enough holes in Swiss cheese eventually there isn't any cheese left.

If you leave too many things unexplained then eventually there isn't an ending left.  Just a brief outline to be used as a sort of 'guide'.  Lots of speculation from everyone.

I'm ok with not EVERYTHING being explained, but I didn't pay for the concluding game of ME in order to make up my own conclusion.  I could have done that without the game at all.

They CAN do it right.   They just NEED to do it right.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

I agree games are not art they are a product sold to a consumer, and a customer is entitled to get what they paid for.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 22 mars 2012 - 11:05 .

[JediMB]

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow ok that's a shame for the people that feel this way....to let a couple hours of the ending erase all the enjoyment of the previous hundreds....wow. That's sad.

For most it's more of a case of the last 10 minutes ruining over a hundred hours.

It's sad, but that's how we feel.

GammaRayJim wrote...

Quit waiting for BioWare to tell you
what happened to everyone...imagine it yourselves be an actual
co-creator and you decide how the galaxy unfolded after your choice.

Gee, if only someone had told me this before I played Mass Effect 3.

...

Seriously, though, there's just no way a fanfic is going to beat getting it in the actual game.

[wook77]

GammaRayJim wrote...

wook77 wrote...

[*SNIPPING IT ALL cause of quote pyramid*]

Never claimed that no one else worked on the chapel but you should check again also because he did do the ceiling which is the most famous all the other artist worked on the walls, which were based on Michelangelo illustrations. Again and thus my point being that Church commissioned him to do this there was no audience involvement. He didn't finish what he started and thus others were brought in to complete it. As for the rest of your post it sounds like you got quite a bit of what you were looking for, lots of games out there plenty of companies to choose from. But they will all change as employees come and go throughout the course of their existence.

So because Michaelangelo did the most famous part, the rest is what? I don't get what you're saying here that somehow invalidates and/or changes what I said about audience request. The Church commissioned him, yes, I'll give you that, but the priests and bishops are the ones that asked for more dogma and the Church and Pope responded by adding to the artwork, regardless of whether they used Michaelangelo's preliminary sketches. What we're asking for is something like the leaked possibility of "The Rescue" that would give closure and an actual ending to the game. We're asking for that additional artwork to be provided.

Sure, I got a lot of what I was looking for but that's like telling me that the Spaceballs poster is the same as a Star Wars poster because I asked for a space scene, a few ships and a big, black helmet. In the end, they're not the same.

Finally, I'm confused why you added that last part as it has nothing to do with the discussion. Sure, employees come and go but, um, all the employees that made promises, such as Casey Hudson and Mike Gamble, are still with BioWare so what does "people come and go"  have to do with the price of a Spaceballs poster? 

[GammaRayJim]

Egonne wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

....lots of possibilities.

If you put enough holes in Swiss cheese eventually there isn't any cheese left.

If you leave too many things unexplained then eventually there isn't an ending left.  Just a brief outline to be used as a sort of 'guide'.  Lots of speculation from everyone.

I'm ok with not EVERYTHING being explained, but I didn't pay for the concluding game of ME in order to make up my own conclusion.  I could have done that without the game at all.

They CAN do it right.   They just NEED to do it right.

But what if they don't change the three choice ending but just elaborate on what happened to the characters and species? Will that be enough? What exactly do they need to do in order for it to be right? What conclusion are you expecting to see? The choices in war are not always going to lead to happy endings, just ask the Japanese. Tragedies abound on both sides and sometimes winning feels like loosing...it's the reality of it.