807 réponses à ce sujet

[Vromrig]

Just saying that I fail doesn't make it so...but I will humor you and no I am not an author looking to write for BioWare. All I am saying is that you better be prepared to not be satisfied with what they choose to do because a lot of you won't. You built up in yourself this belief that because you got them to cave on this you can demand answers to every little question you have about the ending. But it's not going to happen.

I replied as I did because we all know that not all the Krogan went to Earth, so to blatantly say that the Krogan have no hope is just plain foolishness. And what about those who choose not to cure the genophage but to trick the Krogan instead, I guess they need an epiloge telling them that the Krogan went extinct. Some people survived and carried on the human race or synthetic depending on your choice as evidenced by Gramps and kid.

If that's headcanon (haha like that term) then so be it. I for one do not need everything spelled out for me in black and white, for those of you who do more power to ya. Unfortunately it will only lead to more dissappointment for some because it is not how they imagined it to end...even after they fix it. And this will rage on ad infinitum....

Ability to conjure up unrealistic scenarios not proper substitute for concluded story.

Too much focus on Krogan. Specific example, among general. Krogans not only ones with no hope. Entire galaxy now without hope.

[Drak41n]

Wow, thanks! Artist will be so happy we did that because if there's one thing an artist hates, it's being conventional.

[GammaRayJim]

wook77 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

wook77 wrote...

[*SNIPPING IT ALL cause of quote pyramid*]

Never claimed that no one else worked on the chapel but you should check again also because he did do the ceiling which is the most famous all the other artist worked on the walls, which were based on Michelangelo illustrations. Again and thus my point being that Church commissioned him to do this there was no audience involvement. He didn't finish what he started and thus others were brought in to complete it. As for the rest of your post it sounds like you got quite a bit of what you were looking for, lots of games out there plenty of companies to choose from. But they will all change as employees come and go throughout the course of their existence.

So because Michaelangelo did the most famous part, the rest is what? I don't get what you're saying here that somehow invalidates and/or changes what I said about audience request. The Church commissioned him, yes, I'll give you that, but the priests and bishops are the ones that asked for more dogma and the Church and Pope responded by adding to the artwork, regardless of whether they used Michaelangelo's preliminary sketches. What we're asking for is something like the leaked possibility of "The Rescue" that would give closure and an actual ending to the game. We're asking for that additional artwork to be provided.

Sure, I got a lot of what I was looking for but that's like telling me that the Spaceballs poster is the same as a Star Wars poster because I asked for a space scene, a few ships and a big, black helmet. In the end, they're not the same.

Finally, I'm confused why you added that last part as it has nothing to do with the discussion. Sure, employees come and go but, um, all the employees that made promises, such as Casey Hudson and Mike Gamble, are still with BioWare so what does "people come and go"  have to do with the price of a Spaceballs poster? 

The priest and bishops are not the audience they are members of the church too so they may have wanted more dogma but they are still the church. And being so were within their rights to request more or changes. You make it sound as if the common public wanted it changed and the church complied which is not the case.

I never said the posters were the same what I have been trying to say is that when you commission a piece of art you have the right to have it changed altered to your vision. When you buy it off the rack you have to take what you get or not buy it at all. That all this press has gotten them to do something about the ending BRAVO to all you who are "holding the line".

You don't even know that the leaked "the Rescue" is even real and yet it's what you yearn for a happy ending. Some closure. The fact that Shepard died in whatever way you choose for him to go is not enough. War forces people to make tough choices and the ends don't always justify the means. Sometimes what we get isn't exactly what we wanted, I know I wanted the Reaper threat ended and that's what I got. The cost may seem to be to high based on what we were given but some did survive and that's what I/Shepard wanted too.

As far as my last statement goes you said you wanted to love BioWare again and all I was trying to point out was that the company and it's employees are not the same as when this all began. Different people means different visions and outcomes. What you may have loved in BioWare may have been the people that were there at the time. 

[XqctaX]

i find this op accusing and offencive. telling us we ruined future games.
for what voicing our oppinion on a forum made for that very same reason.

if free thought and speech is something the op cant deal with i suggest he takes his own advice and advocate silence.<3

Modifié par XqctaX, 22 mars 2012 - 11:43 .

[Valo_Soren]

Bioware isn't really going to change the ending just going to extrapolate with more clarity and closure, this isn't going to be a complete re-write like Fallout 3. So OP, while I to love the endings as is I think you're over reacting a bit. With this compromise everyone wins, including you.

[Egonne]

GammaRayJim wrote...

Egonne wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

....lots of possibilities.

If you put enough holes in Swiss cheese eventually there isn't any cheese left.

If you leave too many things unexplained then eventually there isn't an ending left.  Just a brief outline to be used as a sort of 'guide'.  Lots of speculation from everyone.

I'm ok with not EVERYTHING being explained, but I didn't pay for the concluding game of ME in order to make up my own conclusion.  I could have done that without the game at all.

They CAN do it right.   They just NEED to do it right.

But what if they don't change the three choice ending but just elaborate on what happened to the characters and species? Will that be enough? What exactly do they need to do in order for it to be right? What conclusion are you expecting to see? The choices in war are not always going to lead to happy endings, just ask the Japanese. Tragedies abound on both sides and sometimes winning feels like loosing...it's the reality of it.

That may be enough.  If they can do it WELL! But frankly I am very skeptical that they will be able to take the current ending and make it work.  I personally think the best they can do is Indoctrination theory.  Keeps them from totally trashing what they did, but explains the myriad of plot holes, and allows them to get the ending right.

[SScagnetti]

And people say the retake people are drama queens... I tell you, the loud pro-enders are worse doomsayers than world news is.

Modifié par SScagnetti, 22 mars 2012 - 11:47 .

[GammaRayJim]

Vromrig wrote...

Just saying that I fail doesn't make it so...but I will humor you and no I am not an author looking to write for BioWare. All I am saying is that you better be prepared to not be satisfied with what they choose to do because a lot of you won't. You built up in yourself this belief that because you got them to cave on this you can demand answers to every little question you have about the ending. But it's not going to happen.

I replied as I did because we all know that not all the Krogan went to Earth, so to blatantly say that the Krogan have no hope is just plain foolishness. And what about those who choose not to cure the genophage but to trick the Krogan instead, I guess they need an epiloge telling them that the Krogan went extinct. Some people survived and carried on the human race or synthetic depending on your choice as evidenced by Gramps and kid.

If that's headcanon (haha like that term) then so be it. I for one do not need everything spelled out for me in black and white, for those of you who do more power to ya. Unfortunately it will only lead to more dissappointment for some because it is not how they imagined it to end...even after they fix it. And this will rage on ad infinitum....

Ability to conjure up unrealistic scenarios not proper substitute for concluded story.

Too much focus on Krogan. Specific example, among general. Krogans not only ones with no hope. Entire galaxy now without hope.

My conjuring of hope in the galaxy an unrealistic scenario versus your hopeless galaxy? Why is it to hard to argue my logical conclusion to this, becuase I would like to see you logically dispute my scenarios with something other than you saying they are unrealistic. I would say they are fairly equal and both have merits. As I earlier gave you credit for your logical conclusion that most species went exticnt. 

[zimm2142]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense etc...

It’s called commissioned art. Aside from
missing that point entirely, all that I saw was a slippery slope fallacy.

Learn to argue, and don't be so sensationalistic
about this issue; games, movies, and books have all had endings changed before,
this will just be one more on that list.

Thank you for staying relatively civil. To all
those like myself who support a change to the endings and the Retake ME3
movement, stay civil, our willingness to restrain ourselves from lashing out is
one of our major strengths, keep it that way.

Stay civil, HOLD THE LINE,
Donate to the children.

Modifié par zimm2142, 22 mars 2012 - 11:53 .

[wook77]

GammaRayJim wrote...

wook77 wrote...

[*SNIPPING IT ALL cause of quote pyramid*]

The priest and bishops are not the audience they are members of the church too so they may have wanted more dogma but they are still the church. And being so were within their rights to request more or changes. You make it sound as if the common public wanted it changed and the church complied which is not the case.

I never said the posters were the same what I have been trying to say is that when you commission a piece of art you have the right to have it changed altered to your vision. When you buy it off the rack you have to take what you get or not buy it at all. That all this press has gotten them to do something about the ending BRAVO to all you who are "holding the line".

You don't even know that the leaked "the Rescue" is even real and yet it's what you yearn for a happy ending. Some closure. The fact that Shepard died in whatever way you choose for him to go is not enough. War forces people to make tough choices and the ends don't always justify the means. Sometimes what we get isn't exactly what we wanted, I know I wanted the Reaper threat ended and that's what I got. The cost may seem to be to high based on what we were given but some did survive and that's what I/Shepard wanted too.

As far as my last statement goes you said you wanted to love BioWare again and all I was trying to point out was that the company and it's employees are not the same as when this all began. Different people means different visions and outcomes. What you may have loved in BioWare may have been the people that were there at the time. 

The priests and bishops were, at the time, the intended audience, and not the patrons. The priests and bishops, at the time of the painting, very rarely had access to this chapel. The priests and bishops are not decision makers in the Church. The Pope and his Cardinals are the decisionmakers. I'm assuming you are not Catholic because you show a basic non-understanding of the Church versus its members. Note when I say Church vs church because they are two separate entities. I could get into religious dogma to show how the priesthood does not equal the Church but rather than devolving into religious dogma, I suggest you google it so we can stay on topic.

And my example is exactly the buy off the rack thing. If I go into a poster shop and say "yanno, I want a serious poster about a space battle that has some awesome ships on it, some people, oh and a big, black helmet" and the guy sells me a poster tube that is labelled Star Wars Poster, I'm expecting a Star Wars Poster. I'm not expecting a Spaceballs poster, even if the majority of the pieces that I listed I wanted were included. The end result is that they are not the same as what was promised to me in a significant way.

Where did I say I yearned for a happy ending? I said I supported those that do because they're entitled to their ending wishes. What I am asking for is whatever ending they had in mind to be provided. "The Rescue" was an example of what could be provided. In my ending, Shepard took a breath so I'm not complaining about him dying. I got him to live so why would I complain about him dying. Oh wait, I didn't. I'm thinking the Mordin response above me is correct - you are fixating on small details rather than the entirety of the statement.

Where did I say that what I loved about BioWare was the people? It's not. It's the organization, as a whole, who has a commitment to equality. That is why I bought the game and that is what I said in the first place. Are you just not reading what I say or are you just not understanding what I'm saying? 

[rvgifford]

The art argument remains fail. Artistic integrity does not trump integrity. When you promise to include certain things in your "art" to the consumer of said art, you are obligated to do so, vision or no. You don't change your mind halfway through just because it's art. Make art for art's sake and feel free to make it any way you like. Make it for a consumer base which you advertised to and told what that art would contain . . .

Moral of the story, art argument fails every time.

[Brass_Buckles]

Karrie788 wrote...

You're using an old argument, so I'll use old counter arguments. You know who had to change a particular event of his novels? To unkill his main character? Arthur Conan Doyle. And said character was Sherlock Holmes. Would you say that was a bad decision?

I myself truly believe games are art. They have a wonderful capacity for storytelling, being interactive. But that's just the thing : they're interactive. In that way, the story also belongs to us. Besides, Bioware has stated numerous times they were creating the story with the fans. That's how, for example, we got the romances with team dextro.

If an ending is bad, I have the right to dislike it. If it's full of plotholes, lack of closure, and goes against everything the developers have promised, I sure have the right to ask for a better ending. They may not listen. But I have the right to voice my opinion.

This is not unprecedented. Bethesda was humble enough to recognize the ending to Fallout 3 was rubbish and changed it. Bioware can do the same if they judge that the fans may have a point. The ball is in their camp.

I not only agree with this, but I will point out that in the Renaissance (and in fact much of human history), art was created ONLY for commercial or religious purposes.  It was frequently changed, and often overpainted or rewritten entirely.  The patron--the person paying for the art (which incidentally coincides with gamers who purchase video games today)--could tell an artist that he or she didn't like something, and the artist would change it, or not get paid.  Of course there were individuals who could order an artist beheaded if he happened to displease the patron.  It's not that extreme today, but the patron requesting (or even demanding) a change to art is nothing new.

To the OP:  To equate dissatisfied customers/patrons with children is ignoring the point that we are, in fact, the patrons.  And it's a bit difficult to not buy something you don't like if you had already purchased it.  There are very few places you can sell back or return a PC game anymore and some people, such as myself, preordered the game for PC and did not know the ending was terrible until we actually played it.  In fact I believe many people avoided spoilers.

I'm not saying we're entitled to have the game change, although as we are dissatisfied customers, the company would be wise to do something to make us happy or else lose our business.  And there are lots of us.  If you were given a rotten steak at a restaurant, would you happily eat it and pay for it, or would you request that you get a better steak?  Or would you just leave?  I'm reasonably sure more fans have left than are complaining, and Bioware should be flattered that so many of us want to give them another chance because it shows how good people still believe they are.

While we aren't necessarily entitled to a new ending, we are entitled to the right to have our own opinions, just as you are.  Downtalking to us and calling us children in an effort to bolster your own opinion does not reflect well on you.

[Vromrig]

My conjuring of hope in the galaxy an unrealistic scenario versus your hopeless galaxy? Why is it to hard to argue my logical conclusion to this, becuase I would like to see you logically dispute my scenarios with something other than you saying they are unrealistic. I would say they are fairly equal and both have merits. As I earlier gave you credit for your logical conclusion that most species went exticnt.

Only one logical conclusion. Entire network of galactic civilization, viability, dependent upon high speed transit brought on by Mass Relays.

Removal of Mass Relays resets universe into dark age. Impossible to reach conclusion that does not merit this.

Akin to island dependent on tourism for economy. Tourism ceases. Island starves.

[AlexMBrennan]

OP, time for a reality check: Only movies people will like are made, and only books people are likely to like and buy are published. That's life for you. Requiring Hudson to make a game people are happy with is not unreasonable.

[cchudoba002]

Yeah I agree wholeheartedly. If you don't like the art, don't buy it. Oh wait, I already bought it, and wasn't satisfied with it. If an artist is commissioned to make a sculpture, and the sculpture doesn't live up to the customers expectations, the artist should fix it, or provide a refund. This is no different. It's not like we are forcing them to do it. We expressed our displeasure, they have decided how to respond. And they have specifically stated that whatever content they release will uphold their "artistic vision." I really doubt they will scrap anything they have worked on. Most likely they will just add on to it. Putting more work into something really can't diminish a product, it only increases it.

[auuus]

Your logic is a bit faulty here, I'm afraid.
You assume that a game is either art or a product, when it in fact can be both. And if a developer makes a lot of promises, it's understandable that fans want to hold them to their word, and feel betrayed if it's broken.

[Beta-Breech]

GammaRayJim wrote...

Beta-Breech wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow it really boggles my mind that people can honestly compare themselves to the Catholic Church who commissioned/hired Micheangelo to paint/sculpt ect... to themselves as having hired BioWare to write/produce ME3. The Church as said patron had every right to determine what the artwork would represent because they approved preliminary sketches. Please don't think that he just painted whatever he felt like.

Quit deluding yourselves you didn't hire them you purchased their mass produced artwork. Much like buying a poster of said famous work of art you bought a copy of someones artistic vision and because you don't like the ending you feel ripped off. But no one forced you to buy it and you in no way hired them to make it for you, you chose to go along for the ride.

While we the fans didn't commision this work, we funded it by buying the previous games and keeping the company alive.  If we stopped buying their games, DLC and products they would not of been able to make this game.   It's a buyers market and shock horror the buyers aren't happy with a product because it's not as advertised.   

When it comes down to games and the story they tell a cruicial part of it, is the way it ends.  It has to be consistent to be considered good, it has to have some level of rationallity to match the world it's been set in.  The ending doesn't have either of these things.   It wouldn't matter if everyone died, or if the galaxy was destroyed, just as long as it was damn consistent.  

If I didn't enjoy the Gears of war style multiplayer (which is neither artistic or that interesting in the way it was developed)  I would of returned the game and got my money back.    Don't delude yourself that the buyers don't control the market.  It happens when fans of a series make requests or are unhappy with a product.  What this is, is a product that contains some artistic merit, but it's a product none the less.  

What you're forgetting is with music, and books we can sample them without having to put money on the table first.   We can decided wether or not we want to contribute to the artists developement and help fund their next endevor.  With games we can't do that, so they're more of a product than anything else.  

What you are describing is consumerism which is not the same or should ever be confused with the commissioning of artwork. A commissioned artist is hired to produce artwork preapproved by the commissioner. Yes by buying previous titles from BioWare we kept them in business but in no way does that constitute the commissioning of future games.

I am not delude in not believing that buyers control the market, but we do that by not purchasing products from companies that don't consistently deliver what we are looking for and not by demanding that the company changes its product. That being said as I stated in an earlier post it is ok to criticise and complain and should the company choose to change something based on that so be it, but to think in some way we earned that right out of commission is ridiculous.

As the case of music sure you can sample but that doesn't mean you will be happy with the entire album. Reading a few chapters in a book will no way tell you how the book will end, if you like a few chapters you can choose go for the ride where the author wants to take you. With games we do have a chance at times with the release of demo's but again no demo is going to tell you how it ends. Movies release trailers showing the most exciting parts of the movie in the hopes of getting you to go see it and sometimes the trailer is the only good part of the movie.

The only way you truly have control over the content is if you choose to purchase and play. People don't like the way this story ended, not how the game played but how their emotional attachment to Shepard did not meet with their expectations...so be it, it happens a lot in life.

Sorry missed this post in the torrid of replies shortly after!  

Firstly Bioware stated from the start of the ME series that it would be a triliogy.  If we hadn't of put money into the previous two games the third wouldn't of got there.  So in a way we did commision the work through driving the sales up giving glowing fan reviews, recommending it and putting our money into the company.

If ME1 had been a flop do you really think that we would of got to this stage?    If an artist promises to deliver something after being paid to do so and then fail to deliver the person who commisions them  generally request that the art be changed to meet with what they've been paid for.  

Bioware flat out promised us that the story would end in a way that made sense, a way that would tie up the loose ends.  More importantly they promised us that there wouln't be "set endings".     Don't get me wrong I'm not one of these people demanding the ending be changed, rather asking.     

In terms of music and books:   With music you can sample entire albums for free thanks to spotify but with limited repeat play obviously, with books you can go to a library and read them.   When a games developer has been consistently awesome with a series like Bioware has you expect the final chapter to be brilliant.  You base what you've seen them do before on what this final ending will be.    With most movies these days you can tell if the movie is going to be terrible by the trailer.  

I've said it before, but I couldn't care if my Shepard died, or if everyone died. Hell it's a war setting.  I wasn't expecting a happy ending and nor would I want one.   Just as long as it made sense and stood true to the universe Bioware have created.    It really feels like George Lucas has had a hand in the making of this third outing at the end.   Not the GL who created the originals with the help of others telling him what is frankly awful, but the GL that had full control and no one to stop him from writing prequels that are so full of plot holes, an entire planet could fit through them.    

As many have said before, none of this would matter if Bioware said from the start there was a set ending and not faulsly promised something they couldn't deliver.   

Modifié par Beta-Breech, 23 mars 2012 - 12:16 .

[X_30002000]

OP, writing (books, movie scripts, game scripts/plots, newspaper articles, etc.) can not be automatically treated as an art. Person has to have not only talent, but skills and knowledge of how writing must be done to create an art and those rules vary depending on categorizes of writing and genre. Without that talent, knowledge and skills only a trash will be created.

In case of ME one of the distinctive characteristic of the trilogy was the fact that we (players) were to some degree co-authors – we were deciding withing some limitations what would happen and how we would deal with particular situation.

Remember ME2 endings – Human Reaper could be destroyed or it could be saved and given to Cerberus for research, Normandy crew members could die or survive, Sheppard could die or survive.

If that ME3 “ending” was an art, it would seamlessly continue to follow same principle, good writer would never change genre of the story in the last few pages. Instead in that “ending” suddenly we were essentially told to stick our choices in our as*es, and we were told how much bitterns and happiness we'll get. This is not an art, this is arrogant dilettantism. To make things worse that “ending” has disastrous contradiction to ME story including ME3 and numerous plot holes, it doesn’t bring any closure.

Yet same ME3 has example of moments written with talent, for instance genophage ending. There was no need to steal choices from us to make it very touching.

Even if those who wrote that “ending” tried to make ending grim (because it was epic and such a huge battle), were they talented, they would know that different people has different perception of grim.

For me personally dozens of billions of slaughtered people is a horror and enormous sadness on its own, so I need Sheppard survive together with love interest and Normandy crew to offset it, otherwise it is too depressing. I can totally accept that for some other players those dozens of billions of slaughtered peoples just an abstract number and unless they see Sheppard dies, they do not feel sadness at all.

That is why ME with the idea of multiple endings became such a hit. I can not comprehend why at the end of ME3 bioware desired to trash this great idea that brought so much money to their wallet but this was definitely nothing to do with art or talent, both art and talent are totally absent from that “ending”.

--I posted this before to other OP who had similar concern.

[McScroggz24]

The problem with trying to debate a topic like this is first it's all perspective, similar to how freedom fighters and terrorists are a matter of perspective. Alas, an even bigger flaw is that there is almost nothing that everyone agrees on. The sky is blue. Some say its aqua, or that its just how we perceive the rays that our eyes can handle, or some or blind, so forth. It may sound childish but you can always find somebody who believes differently than you.

[GammaRayJim]

wook77 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

wook77 wrote...

[*SNIPPING IT ALL cause of quote pyramid*]

The priest and bishops are not the audience they are members of the church too so they may have wanted more dogma but they are still the church. And being so were within their rights to request more or changes. You make it sound as if the common public wanted it changed and the church complied which is not the case.

I never said the posters were the same what I have been trying to say is that when you commission a piece of art you have the right to have it changed altered to your vision. When you buy it off the rack you have to take what you get or not buy it at all. That all this press has gotten them to do something about the ending BRAVO to all you who are "holding the line".

You don't even know that the leaked "the Rescue" is even real and yet it's what you yearn for a happy ending. Some closure. The fact that Shepard died in whatever way you choose for him to go is not enough. War forces people to make tough choices and the ends don't always justify the means. Sometimes what we get isn't exactly what we wanted, I know I wanted the Reaper threat ended and that's what I got. The cost may seem to be to high based on what we were given but some did survive and that's what I/Shepard wanted too.

As far as my last statement goes you said you wanted to love BioWare again and all I was trying to point out was that the company and it's employees are not the same as when this all began. Different people means different visions and outcomes. What you may have loved in BioWare may have been the people that were there at the time. 

The priests and bishops were, at the time, the intended audience, and not the patrons. The priests and bishops, at the time of the painting, very rarely had access to this chapel. The priests and bishops are not decision makers in the Church. The Pope and his Cardinals are the decisionmakers. I'm assuming you are not Catholic because you show a basic non-understanding of the Church versus its members. Note when I say Church vs church because they are two separate entities. I could get into religious dogma to show how the priesthood does not equal the Church but rather than devolving into religious dogma, I suggest you google it so we can stay on topic.

And my example is exactly the buy off the rack thing. If I go into a poster shop and say "yanno, I want a serious poster about a space battle that has some awesome ships on it, some people, oh and a big, black helmet" and the guy sells me a poster tube that is labelled Star Wars Poster, I'm expecting a Star Wars Poster. I'm not expecting a Spaceballs poster, even if the majority of the pieces that I listed I wanted were included. The end result is that they are not the same as what was promised to me in a significant way.

Where did I say I yearned for a happy ending? I said I supported those that do because they're entitled to their ending wishes. What I am asking for is whatever ending they had in mind to be provided. "The Rescue" was an example of what could be provided. In my ending, Shepard took a breath so I'm not complaining about him dying. I got him to live so why would I complain about him dying. Oh wait, I didn't. I'm thinking the Mordin response above me is correct - you are fixating on small details rather than the entirety of the statement.

Where did I say that what I loved about BioWare was the people? It's not. It's the organization, as a whole, who has a commitment to equality. That is why I bought the game and that is what I said in the first place. Are you just not reading what I say or are you just not understanding what I'm saying? 

Well as a matter of fact I am Catholic and had twleve years of a Catholic education, although I am currently non practicing. Not that this has anything to do with what I am trying to say about commissioned versus off the rack. You can argue semantics about whether or not the priest and bishops at the time were considered the church or not but I won't. They all belonged to the same organization and thus had a right to say what they wanted to see. 

The Star Wars vs Spaceball poster is an apples and oranges debate if something was labelled Star Wars and you got Spaceballs then by all means complain, take it back, get a refund. But when I plugged in my copy of Mass Effect 3 there was Shepard and the gang fighting Cerebus and the Reapers, not sure what you took home and played. A crappy ending does not stop it from being Mass Effects.

They provided an ending why is everyone so quick to assume that because of rumors on the internet (where we know that everything on here is the truth) of another ending that didn't get written it means we were somehow duped. Everyone claims that great material is only that way because of editting how do we know that that was an ending that was editted out because it worked even worse than this one. "The Rescue" implies a happy ending and so I wrongly assumed it was what you were looking for, my aplogies won't happen again. I will take issue with the fact that you feel that people are entitled to a happy ending. Happy ending don't always happen.

And lastly when I think of organizations I think of the people in them and not just the logo my mistake for thinking that everyone believed that organizations are made up of people who come and go. Won't make that one again either.

[GammaRayJim]

Vromrig wrote...

My conjuring of hope in the galaxy an unrealistic scenario versus your hopeless galaxy? Why is it to hard to argue my logical conclusion to this, becuase I would like to see you logically dispute my scenarios with something other than you saying they are unrealistic. I would say they are fairly equal and both have merits. As I earlier gave you credit for your logical conclusion that most species went exticnt.

Only one logical conclusion. Entire network of galactic civilization, viability, dependent upon high speed transit brought on by Mass Relays.

Removal of Mass Relays resets universe into dark age. Impossible to reach conclusion that does not merit this.

Akin to island dependent on tourism for economy. Tourism ceases. Island starves.

 

Because said islanders are incapable of learning how to fish again? Sorry can't follow your logic on this one.

[xsdob]

To anyone citing charles dickens books, that was in britian pre-1900's, art having rights wasn't realy a thing back than ,and certainly fictional books were not considered art by the people back than. Bringing up the book is a moot point.

[GammaRayJim]

Beta-Breech wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Beta-Breech wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Wow it really boggles my mind that people can honestly compare themselves to the Catholic Church who commissioned/hired Micheangelo to paint/sculpt ect... to themselves as having hired BioWare to write/produce ME3. The Church as said patron had every right to determine what the artwork would represent because they approved preliminary sketches. Please don't think that he just painted whatever he felt like.

Quit deluding yourselves you didn't hire them you purchased their mass produced artwork. Much like buying a poster of said famous work of art you bought a copy of someones artistic vision and because you don't like the ending you feel ripped off. But no one forced you to buy it and you in no way hired them to make it for you, you chose to go along for the ride.

While we the fans didn't commision this work, we funded it by buying the previous games and keeping the company alive.  If we stopped buying their games, DLC and products they would not of been able to make this game.   It's a buyers market and shock horror the buyers aren't happy with a product because it's not as advertised.   

When it comes down to games and the story they tell a cruicial part of it, is the way it ends.  It has to be consistent to be considered good, it has to have some level of rationallity to match the world it's been set in.  The ending doesn't have either of these things.   It wouldn't matter if everyone died, or if the galaxy was destroyed, just as long as it was damn consistent.  

If I didn't enjoy the Gears of war style multiplayer (which is neither artistic or that interesting in the way it was developed)  I would of returned the game and got my money back.    Don't delude yourself that the buyers don't control the market.  It happens when fans of a series make requests or are unhappy with a product.  What this is, is a product that contains some artistic merit, but it's a product none the less.  

What you're forgetting is with music, and books we can sample them without having to put money on the table first.   We can decided wether or not we want to contribute to the artists developement and help fund their next endevor.  With games we can't do that, so they're more of a product than anything else.  

What you are describing is consumerism which is not the same or should ever be confused with the commissioning of artwork. A commissioned artist is hired to produce artwork preapproved by the commissioner. Yes by buying previous titles from BioWare we kept them in business but in no way does that constitute the commissioning of future games.

I am not delude in not believing that buyers control the market, but we do that by not purchasing products from companies that don't consistently deliver what we are looking for and not by demanding that the company changes its product. That being said as I stated in an earlier post it is ok to criticise and complain and should the company choose to change something based on that so be it, but to think in some way we earned that right out of commission is ridiculous.

As the case of music sure you can sample but that doesn't mean you will be happy with the entire album. Reading a few chapters in a book will no way tell you how the book will end, if you like a few chapters you can choose go for the ride where the author wants to take you. With games we do have a chance at times with the release of demo's but again no demo is going to tell you how it ends. Movies release trailers showing the most exciting parts of the movie in the hopes of getting you to go see it and sometimes the trailer is the only good part of the movie.

The only way you truly have control over the content is if you choose to purchase and play. People don't like the way this story ended, not how the game played but how their emotional attachment to Shepard did not meet with their expectations...so be it, it happens a lot in life.

Sorry missed this post in the torrid of replies shortly after!  

Firstly Bioware stated from the start of the ME series that it would be a triliogy.  If we hadn't of put money into the previous two games the third wouldn't of got there.  So in a way we did commision the work through driving the sales up giving glowing fan reviews, recommending it and putting our money into the company.

If ME1 had been a flop do you really think that we would of got to this stage?    If an artist promises to deliver something after being paid to do so and then fail to deliver the person who commisions them  generally request that the art be changed to meet with what they've been paid for.  

Bioware flat out promised us that the story would end in a way that made sense, a way that would tie up the loose ends.  More importantly they promised us that there wouln't be "set endings".     Don't get me wrong I'm not one of these people demanding the ending be changed, rather asking.     

In terms of music and books:   With music you can sample entire albums for free thanks to spotify but with limited repeat play obviously, with books you can go to a library and read them.   When a games developer has been consistently awesome with a series like Bioware has you expect the final chapter to be brilliant.  You base what you've seen them do before on what this final ending will be.    With most movies these days you can tell if the movie is going to be terrible by the trailer.  

I've said it before, but I couldn't care if my Shepard died, or if everyone died. Hell it's a war setting.  I wasn't expecting a happy ending and nor would I want one.   Just as long as it made sense and stood true to the universe Bioware have created.    It really feels like George Lucas has had a hand in the making of this third outing at the end.   Not the GL who created the originals with the help of others telling him what is frankly awful, but the GL that had full control and no one to stop him from writing prequels that are so full of plot holes, an entire planet could fit through them.    

As many have said before, none of this would matter if Bioware said from the start there was a set ending and not faulsly promised something they couldn't deliver.   

I still have trouble with people considering this a commissioned piece of work. Did revenues from previous sales allow them to continue the series sure. If the first one sucked we would not be having this discussion, look at all the movies that were set up to be continued and because the first one flopped the others never got made. If you read a book in the library are you then going to go buy it? Music sure I can see you doing that but not a book. Do I wish the ending was better absolutely, but I also don't think a new or revised one is entirely needed.

[antony1197]

So wait they can make changes to the book (Deception) but cant to a game, wouldnt that ruin the, artistic integrity? Double standerds all over.

[King_Gabs]

bioware is just ignoring us.. AND maybe saying... "hmmmm... we should make a dlc about then ending and lets just make it $10! " toink!