807 réponses à ce sujet

[NeecHMonkeY]

Games that focus on audience/player choice with multiple outcomes don't fit into the 'conventional storytelling' model.

[Bob3terd]

Arthur Conan Doyle, Charles Dickens and from games fallout 3 broken steel.

Lets make this clear observing art is free you might have to pay entry but standing their and looking at it is free. You sell somthing and it becomes a product you but it and you become a consumer and guess what if a consumer isnt happy he has the right to complain.

If there isn ending dlc which is somthing thats still up in the air, then dont download it. But why to try to stop us from having a satisfying experiance with the game?

[Phategod1]

DinoSteve wrote...


I agree games are not art they are a product sold to a consumer, and a customer is entitled to get what they paid for.

You did, you got a game. 

[WhiteKnyght]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

I pretty much agree with this.

I'll be grateful for more ME to play, and I'm sure that the devs will do a great job on the coming DLC. But the community has gone way too far lately.

It's true, artistic integrity is dead. At least for Bioware. Let's hope the other gaming developers will have the strength to resist petty taunts.

[Vaktathi]

Phategod1 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...


I agree games are not art they are a product sold to a consumer, and a customer is entitled to get what they paid for.

You did, you got a game. 

Nobody paid for just "a game". They paid for what was advertised a compelling wrap-up to a great trilogy, based on multiple and fairly specific promises from the developers. These promises in large part turned out to be false. Now, in many other circumstances, people may not care, but when there are specifics given on a project with this much time/emotional investment, and they turn out to be false, that's an issue. 

I.E. stuff like this.

http://i686.photobuc...iver1/xUq9t.png 

Modifié par Vaktathi, 23 mars 2012 - 07:51 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Phategod1 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...


I agree games are not art they are a product sold to a consumer, and a customer is entitled to get what they paid for.

You did, you got a game.

A good game at that..

If everybody expected their perfect dream game when they made a purchase, nobody would ever be satisfied. It was the same with Dragon Age II, everybody poured too much thought and energy into their expectations until they were so high, nothing could satisfy them.

The same pattern keeps repeating itself.

DAII was bashed because people claimed it wasn't what they thought it should be.
Mass Effect Deception was nitpicked and bashed because people claimed it wasn't what they thought it would be and went overboard on a few discrepancies.
Mass Effect 3 is bashed because people claimed the ending isn't what they believe they are owed, even though the game as a whole is pretty damn epic.

And the cycle will continue into Dragon Age 3, and any other game Bioware releases.

[Lyne Holden]

The OP should calm down.

Games are altered through patches to fit all sorts of different feedback, after the fact, all the time.
Changing story is no different.

No one sounds the end of artistic integrity when they dial back the damage a weapon does or adjusts the controls.

And, yes, it is the same. It's all about expression through the medium and how you want to communicate to or through your intended audience. If something is not doing as intended, then you change it - story is not sacrosanct in this regard because story is not the singular goal of the medium.

While not actively campaigning personally for such changes, I do feel if enough people came forward with enough constructive feedback, why shouldn't they change it for the better?

Relax.

[SystemsAlliance]

First thing, they promised us a good story games, with non-linear ending, a story which all of our previous actions will affect the outcome of the game.

On the reality, all we had done in ME 1 (saving the rachni queen), in ME 2 (rewrite/destroy the geth), ME 3 (brokering peace between quarians/geth) has only been portrayed as numbers, as war assets. To make it worse, they only makes 3 endings, which is basically "choose-your-color-of-doom" ending.

[Mavaras]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...


I agree games are not art they are a product sold to a consumer, and a customer is entitled to get what they paid for.

You did, you got a game.

A good game at that..

If everybody expected their perfect dream game when they made a purchase, nobody would ever be satisfied. It was the same with Dragon Age II, everybody poured too much thought and energy into their expectations until they were so high, nothing could satisfy them.

The same pattern keeps repeating itself.

DAII was bashed because people claimed it wasn't what they thought it should be.
Mass Effect Deception was nitpicked and bashed because people claimed it wasn't what they thought it would be and went overboard on a few discrepancies.
Mass Effect 3 is bashed because people claimed the ending isn't what they believe they are owed, even though the game as a whole is pretty damn epic.

And the cycle will continue into Dragon Age 3, and any other game Bioware releases.

Couldn't all of those products causing outcry back to back be indicative of a different issue... Not saying it is, but you definitely can't dismiss that possibility so easily.

Modifié par Mavaras, 23 mars 2012 - 08:04 .

[FRancium]

I didn't hear much uproar about artistic integrity when they decided to add Chobot from IGN to the game.

[hangmans tree]

Games are NOT ART. There can be art in games, games incorporate art, are driven by a vision or visionary, but at the end of the day, as a whole, they are a 'product for consumption'.

My opinion. Which should be everyones opinion ;P

[staindgrey]

Videogames are art. However, there is a significant difference between games and other media in terms of what the viewer can "demand".

When I read a book or watch a movie or flip through a comic or look at a painting or listen to music... etc... I am a passive participant. I listen/watch/engage myself in the completed work and have no effect on it. When playing a game-- specifically one like Mass Effect, which is built upon player choice and consequences therein-- that is not the case. I am an active participant. The game is already made, but what happens in this case is something special: I'm crafting my own story from resources given. In Star Wars, I had no choice but to watch Luke fight against the dark side. But if it were a videogame, I could have chosen to let him embrace it.

This pertains to the ending because 1) the ending undermines the entire concept of player involvement by negating former choices and taking power away from the player to fight against what's given (as Shepard normally is supposed to do), and 2) because fan outrage over an ending is increased ten fold due to being an active participant in shaping the work. If I don't enjoy an ending to a movie, that's an entirely different feeling than a videogame like ME. Movie? It was 2-3hrs and $10-15 wasted, and I didn't have a part in making it. ME3? It was 100+hrs and $___ wasted, depending on how invested one's been in the series, all the while what you've personally created in your Shepard no longer matters. No closure is brought to his/her storyline, and everything you've come to know and become invested in inside this universe is now changed forever and you can't even see the outcome.

When people get upset over this, I highly suggest you not belittle it as "entitled" gamers not understanding the concept of art. Videogames are an entirely different medium, and should be regarded as such. There are different expectations, different opportunities for fan input and different fundamentals to how a story should be told. If a movie wants a twist ending that negates everything the main character has done, that could be hugely inspirational. If a videogame does the same, it's not only negating the main character's work; it's also negating the player's work. When the participant is hurt by the route in narrative because he's a participant, the work of art has failed.

[FRancium]

And how about the recent announcement by EA they are shutting down server support, so players will lose access to some single player content? Should the artist sue EA? You go into this business knowing exactly what you get and what you give up. First and foremost it's a product.

[Phategod1]

FRancium wrote...

I didn't hear much uproar about artistic integrity when they decided to add Chobot from IGN to the game.

Chobot knew that she was in the game for over a year before it was released. 

[daver321]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones...

What this

haha.  Sweet irony.

[KillerofHeroes]

Blade Runner has certainly gone through some changes over the years and it's known as one of the greatest science fiction movies ever.

[Yusta1]

iorveth1271 wrote...

^ This.

The fact that the Bioware developers fed us false information about what would be in the game in tons invalidates every single sentence of your argument.

[Mister Mida]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

And the cycle will continue into Dragon Age 3, and any other game Bioware releases.

Ah, another prophet of doom.

'Repent! The end is nigh!'

[Phategod1]

Vaktathi wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...


I agree games are not art they are a product sold to a consumer, and a customer is entitled to get what they paid for.

You did, you got a game. 

Nobody paid for just "a game". They paid for what was advertised a compelling wrap-up to a great trilogy, based on multiple and fairly specific promises from the developers. These promises in large part turned out to be false. Now, in many other circumstances, people may not care, but when there are specifics given on a project with this much time/emotional investment, and they turn out to be false, that's an issue. 

I.E. stuff like this.

http://i686.photobuc...iver1/xUq9t.png 

Two things I want to state: first, if you did or did not find the ending of ME3 "compelling" that is your opinion not a fact. and here's the second thing The entire game is the "Wrapping up" not that one scene the entire game and all the different things that happen based on what you did in ME1 & 2 resulting in things like Conrad Verner living or dying Wrex living or dying all those things are the "wrapping up" that Casey meant. 

[sistersafetypin]

I'm honestly surprised this hasn't been locked yet. It adds nothing to the discussion beyond some Smug guy professing to herald the doom of story-telling as we know it.

Because that's not melodramatic at all

[LilyasAvalon]

...Wow, this is still up... Really?

[XXIceColdXX]

Seriously Bioware want to get this ending right. Expecially with a movie deal hanging in the balance. Improving the ending is only win for Bioware

[FyreSyder]

Dusty Arne wrote...

I dont want Bioware to be forced in to a road they wern't planning to go.

Why not? We were...

[KingKhan03]

Phategod1 wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...


I agree games are not art they are a product sold to a consumer, and a customer is entitled to get what they paid for.

You did, you got a game. 

Nobody paid for just "a game". They paid for what was advertised a compelling wrap-up to a great trilogy, based on multiple and fairly specific promises from the developers. These promises in large part turned out to be false. Now, in many other circumstances, people may not care, but when there are specifics given on a project with this much time/emotional investment, and they turn out to be false, that's an issue. 

I.E. stuff like this.

http://i686.photobuc...iver1/xUq9t.png 

Two things I want to state: first, if you did or did not find the ending of ME3 "compelling" that is your opinion not a fact. and here's the second thing The entire game is the "Wrapping up" not that one scene the entire game and all the different things that happen based on what you did in ME1 & 2 resulting in things like Conrad Verner living or dying Wrex living or dying all those things are the "wrapping up" that Casey meant. 

But this is false nothing was wrapped up... What did the Rachni add to the battle? Wrex and Grunt where were they? The geth and the quarian we worked to unite where were they? I'm sorry if i sound entitled but I just want the ending to make sense and reflect the choices we have made throughout the trilogy.

[Vaktathi]

Phategod1 wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...


I agree games are not art they are a product sold to a consumer, and a customer is entitled to get what they paid for.

You did, you got a game. 

Nobody paid for just "a game". They paid for what was advertised a compelling wrap-up to a great trilogy, based on multiple and fairly specific promises from the developers. These promises in large part turned out to be false. Now, in many other circumstances, people may not care, but when there are specifics given on a project with this much time/emotional investment, and they turn out to be false, that's an issue. 

I.E. stuff like this.

http://i686.photobuc...iver1/xUq9t.png 

Two things I want to state: first, if you did or did not find the ending of ME3 "compelling" that is your opinion not a fact. and here's the second thing The entire game is the "Wrapping up" not that one scene the entire game and all the different things that happen based on what you did in ME1 & 2 resulting in things like Conrad Verner living or dying Wrex living or dying all those things are the "wrapping up" that Casey meant. 

You missed the big point of my post. We were sold something that was not as described. When given specifics as to the game, they quite often turned out to be false, in some cases excatly the opposite.  Yeah, "compelling" is subjective, but they managed to do it twice before quite successfully and not so much this time if the controversy is anything to go by. This didn't happen in ME1 or ME2, so we can say that, at least on some level, they failed to carry that through adequately. 

As to "wrapping up", no, claiming the entire game is supposed to do that doesn't work, because when all is said and done, much if not most of it simply is not wrapped up. We see the relays explode and the reapers leave/die, and the normandy crash. The fate of pretty much everything aside from a couple people on the normandy is left unknown.