807 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoni89]

What happened to gaming without DLC, changing endings and expanding story content obviously began cause of DLC. Why don't you complain about DLC changing story and art content. Where in books and art does such a thing exist.

Who is there target audience?
If you fail your target audience obviously it needs a redraft. According an article I read Bioware had like 3 month to come up with ending. By end of 2011 they finally came up with a version of the ending.

I know alot of sites are pro mass effect ending like IGN, has called the 60,000 voters who did not like the ending a " super minority" but considering youtube videos with 40 million views but only like 100 thousand to1 million likes. Based on that information we conclude it definitely not a minority.

Games are products and thats what they mainly are. Artform is involved but its mainly product with a target audience. If Bioware ignore the fans and obviously people are going to stop buying their games, its just that simple.

Modifié par Dragoni89, 22 mars 2012 - 08:56 .

[Chernaya]

Art can be changed, it will be changed, and it always changes. That's what art is, it's never completely solid, it gets critiqued, and it can be molded and shaped into new and different forms. It happens all the time, and that's why art is so varied and different around the world.

The beauty of art is its ability to change forms and perspectives, and to be something different to everyone. Saying art can't be changed is...silly, really. It is changed all the time.

[Quietness]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

I agree with you, OP.

And i will ignore any and every piece of information that will counter the point and just agree with you blindly.... im sorry but what?

You have your opinion and I have mine. Get over it. I wasn't even talking to you.

LOL " i agree with you OP" is opinon. What i posted was fact... Historical Fact....

Edit: by the way, before i forget as you appear to be new to the concept. Welcome to open forums where anyone can response to you ^^

Modifié par Quietness, 22 mars 2012 - 08:56 .

[jimbo32]

Another extremely thoughtful person reminding me what my rights are. /sarcasm

If they didn't want the sh**storm, they shouldn't have made promises they had no intention of keeping. And whether you like it or not, consumers have a right - yes a RIGHT - to express their disgust and dissatisfaction when they feel they have been misled about a product they have paid for.

[Citizen Q]

KingKhan03 wrote...

lol whut. There was so much artistic integrity in that day one DLC! 10 bucks worth of it!!

ZING

[FRancium]

If we don't get new argument on the op's side, just let this thread sink people.

[pikey1969]

Trying to discuss the matter of 'are videogames art?' and inevitably 'what is art?' on any official fan forum is doomed to failure, it's fruitless.

It's a question most developers and even the most formidable members of the gaming press can't fully elaborate upon on any definitive terms.

Games are still very much a young and still developing entry in the world of media. It's very different from other forms that already exist, just like when motion pictures were introduced (TV/Movies).

It's too early to start bringing the subject of 'artistic value' and 'merits' on any definitive terms.

Note the inclusion of the word 'definitive'. I emphasize this going off of the OP's post and his insinuations as well as some of the retorts against that have followed.

Modifié par pikey1969, 22 mars 2012 - 08:56 .

[Lugaidster]

Dreogan wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

To the OP. As much as I believe in artistic integrity, I also believe in humble artists. Willingness to improve on feedback should not be looked down upon. The worst part is, it is you, the guys that defend "artistic integrity" the ones that will later look down as if you're somehow superior for being proud of your work.

Being humble is not bad sometimes. The final decision rests in Bioware hands, and if they do change the ending, it won't be me pointing fingers.

This one's playing the good cop.

:mellow:What's wrong with my post?

[Dreogan]

halbert986 wrote...

It's not like a group of disgruntled 17 year olds has taken bioware headquarters hostage and are popping someone in the back of the head for every mistake unless they fix it. If they don't want to change it that's their right, but I'm guessing they'd rather not lose a very very large portion of their fanbase.

"Nice fanbase you have here, Bioware. Would be a shame if something were to happen to it."

[SpiderFan1217]

Citizen Q wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

lol whut. There was so much artistic integrity in that day one DLC! 10 bucks worth of it!!

ZING

This again? They stared the DLC while they were waiting for the game to come out. All the people complaining about it need to get over it.

[Killer3000ad]

Yet another misguided individual makes a thread designed to aggravate people, then when they point out how wrong he is, he's nowhere in sight to answer them.

[HenchxNarf]

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

I agree with you, OP.

And i will ignore any and every piece of information that will counter the point and just agree with you blindly.... im sorry but what?

You have your opinion and I have mine. Get over it. I wasn't even talking to you.

LOL " i agree with you OP" is opinon. What i posted was fact... Historical Fact....

I agree with what they posted. I don't feel the need to go into an elaborate reason as to why I agree. Nor do I have to explain myself to you.

[Qutayba]

It's really hard to hold the argument that fans can't ask an artist to change something, and then when the artist decides to change something argue that the fans can demand the artist not change something. They're the artists. The fans can't FORCE them to change anything. Artists can change or not change, depending on the criticism. That's what criticism is FOR. When art is mediocre, it's the critics' job to point that out so that the artist can improve.

There are arguments both for and against the endings that use accepted art- and literary-critical measures. It's not just fans running around like monkeys hurling poo. BioWare has to listen to the criticism and decide what to do.

People seem to think the Mona Lisa sprang into being in the Louvre. No, it's become a classic work of art because critics over the centuries have consistently considered it significant. And as so many have pointed out, artists change their work all the time. And a medium like video games is even more malleable than most.

[hector7rau]

Artist integrity my balls, they ruined that when they decided to sell us 1st day DLC, that included a character that actually was important in the main narrative. Besides, as proven by "The Final Hours" they didn't even knew how to finish the game when it was supposed to be released originally, so they made this cheap and rushed dumb ending.

[thesmallearth]

If we didn't care so much about Bioware and the Mass Effect IP - we wouldn't be offering this amount of constructive feedback...

[tjmax]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

Please... these arguments are rediculous....


Entertainment Art that had changed the endings.

 Biggest one i can think of is Harry potter was suposed to die. In fact most of the people that lived in Harry Potter where ment to die and most that died where ment to live in her original story.. people complained so she changed the whole story.

If the passion of the fans have no impact in the "art" then .. who exactly are you making it for. if its for your self, then by all mean keep your integraty and hold your ground, but when it is for sale for profit... you SHOULD listen to the opinions of your customers. Not bow to their every whim, but take the opinions into concideration.

[Icinix]

EionaCousland wrote...

Art can be changed, it will be changed, and it always changes. That's what art is, it's never completely solid, it gets critiqued, and it can be molded and shaped into new and different forms. It happens all the time, and that's why art is so varied and different around the world.

The beauty of art is its ability to change forms and perspectives, and to be something different to everyone. Saying art can't be changed is...silly, really. It is changed all the time.

Exactly.

Some of the worlds most famous pieces of art were revised, sent back and rejected. The original piece of art - is still in tact - you can never change the original - adding an ammended or additional ending only increases the scope of the art done.

It doesn't undo it.

Something like Starry Nights has one picture in particular that is famous - but there are three pieces that I'm aware of that are different but part of the total. If that makes sense?

[Xandax]

I don't see it as negative that consumers can stand up for themselves and have producers change their product based on what they promised and what they actually delivered.

'It's art'. No. It's mass produced goods for a mainstream market.

[Giskler]

Yea, this isnt the first time a story has been revised. Clueless OP.

[Quietness]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

I agree with you, OP.

And i will ignore any and every piece of information that will counter the point and just agree with you blindly.... im sorry but what?

You have your opinion and I have mine. Get over it. I wasn't even talking to you.

LOL " i agree with you OP" is opinon. What i posted was fact... Historical Fact....

I agree with what they posted. I don't feel the need to go into an elaborate reason as to why I agree. Nor do I have to explain myself to you.

Im sorry all i heard was wow, im just going to subvert the norm because im hip and cool and above all these other people. Damn the facts! 

[KroganShields]

I have /all/ the rights in the world to demand and recieve the full product I have paid for. We never came up to Bioware like 'THE ENDING MUST INCLUD PONIES AND BUTTERFLIES AND ALSO MAKE SHEPARD FART RAINBOWS.' No. All we did was to demand what we were promised to get when we bought the game and what was obvious we would get when we bought the game. Clousre, ending without plotholes that make no sense, Sixteen different endings and so on and so forth. I can keep on going for hours but there is no point.

[Militarized]

Roguekad wrote...

TheRisenStar wrote...

That Charles Dickens, what a sellout he was. He endangered conventional storytelling forever!

I know! How dare he let Pip have a happish ending! Don't get me started on that sellout Doyle. Really bowing to his fans and bringing back Sherlock. It's not like he was a landmark character or inspired modern fiction.

It's also not like the Sherlock book that came after said retcon was the best one he wrote... oh wait people say it was? 

[Cirreus]

I'd argue we (the fans) are doing everything in our power to save Bioware from itself. EA/Bioware f*ck*d up. We loved this company. I want more Mass Effect. Doesn't have to be Shepard. I want more Dragon Age. I want more Old Rebublic. There is a trend here. I want to give Bioware more money, but when they make a mistake this big & claim to be ignorant about itto it's customer, the heat needs to come down hard. To behonest, the white gloves are still on as far as I'm concerned.

What the recent Dr. Ray Muzyka's post tells me, is that we here on BSN haven't been effective enough. There needs to be more civil pressure. It's not about "changing" the endings to rainbows, ponies & blue babies. It's about the horrible marketing lies, DLC exploitation, rushed game play features, bad editing of the story (including the ending) & the required multiplayer. No one has said just "sorry" sincerely yet. It's always with a "but we (bioware) put all the ingredients in the pot for sucess, it has to be tasty" ... not if isn't in the oven long enough.

[KingKhan03]

in the words of the disgraced commander shepherd...."You Big Stupid Jellyfish!"

[Dougremer]

I can demand anything I want. If they listen is another question.
If it's art I can say whatever I like about it and say I don't like it. If they change it, they don't make it less art, they are just adding something to make it more beautiful. Just look at theatre, they add stuff to that all the time and have different views on the story.
If they don't change it and leave it as it is, I can say "Well, I wont be buying "art" from Bioware anymore". It's that simple.