807 réponses à ce sujet

[kyg_20X6]

Other art doesn't require the level of involvement, input and investment from it's audience than video games. Mass Effect is especially significant in that it's mantra is placing as much control of the story in the player's hands and sculpting the experience based on their actions.

Add to this that it is a trilogy that has asked this from the player for half a decade and had them form relationships with the same set of characters and same protagonist. An ending where most of your most ardent fans feel bemused, disappointed and short-changed is a problem. BioWare have admitted as much, they feel it. BioWare wanted to reward their fans but the ending was a grave misjudgment (just listen to all the stuff Casey said was in but then taken out).

BioWare made a mistake, a miscalculation. Most of us can agree that the rest of the game is brilliant. BioWare now has a chance, after our feedback, to try and give their audience what they want/deserve after all this time.

We'll see in April if that's how it unfolds.

This is art that Is tailored to, and requires heavy involvement from, it's audience. If it fails to satisfy a significant portion of its audience on a significant matter, I see nothing wrong with seeking their input and trying to make amends.

[Dreogan]

Lugaidster wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

To the OP. As much as I believe in artistic integrity, I also believe in humble artists. Willingness to improve on feedback should not be looked down upon. The worst part is, it is you, the guys that defend "artistic integrity" the ones that will later look down as if you're somehow superior for being proud of your work.

Being humble is not bad sometimes. The final decision rests in Bioware hands, and if they do change the ending, it won't be me pointing fingers.

This one's playing the good cop.

:mellow:What's wrong with my post?

Nothing! I just resorted to providing running commentary since this was overwhelmingly one-sided. Not that the other side really has any significant arguments anyway, hah!

[Bloodhound66]

Rewrites happen all the time... This thread is ridiculous. I'm entirely sick of people thibking we're an angry mob trying to demand our way put of sheer entitlement. If you followed the lore as closely as the fans who are making the most valid arguments as to why the ending fell short, you'll easily see what doesn't make sense about the ending. (everything for the most part)

No one here wants to destroy BioWares artistic integrity. We just want an ending that doesnt contradict everything we've done since the veginning of the series.

[Spectre-00N7]

“Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”

This means that I am now co-artist. Have I no say in how the art has turned out if I'm the one who helped create it?

I'm not going to demand a change, I am just giving them feedback and hoping they listen to me. If I think that it is best to make a dlc available to fix the ending, that is my opinion.

[thesmallearth]

Were comparing Bioware against Conan Doyle and Dickens....thats pretty good company..Bioware should be proud....

[DirtyBird627]

Yes because the fans of Dickens and Doyle totally destroyed both those writers careers ( not to mention literature as a whole ) when they demanded changes. I mean nobody reads their works anymore... Um, yeah...

Seriously, bad ending is bad, get over your fanboyism and accept that BW screwed up and at least seem to have the good sense to change it.

[rpgfan321]

I don't think the ending was done in an artistic sense, but if the ME team do not want to change the ending, I support them. Or whatever they decide to do. The damage is already done. They should salvage whatever they can with it and move on.

[Dreogan]

Bloodhound66 wrote...

Rewrites happen all the time... This thread is ridiculous. I'm entirely sick of people thibking we're an angry mob trying to demand our way put of sheer entitlement. If you followed the lore as closely as the fans who are making the most valid arguments as to why the ending fell short, you'll easily see what doesn't make sense about the ending. (everything for the most part)

No one here wants to destroy BioWares artistic integrity. We just want an ending that doesnt contradict everything we've done since the veginning of the series.

If anything, we're holding Bioware to its artistic vision by requesting they finish the fight.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Video games are not art any more than pen and paper role playing games are art. They are just more technically advanced. I know some people would not agree with me on this.

I agree that the ending shouldn't be changed because it is likely to be even worse, but that is not the point.

The point is that if you want to view the ME3 ending through the lense of artistic vision, then it is open to honest critical analysis and feedback. If developers truly want to elevate the medium, they will have to respond and mature as artists alongside this critical review just as any good artist would.

If you want to debate the inherent quality of ME3 as art, you have to take into account its artistic merits through formal analysis and critique. Any honest attempt to do this will reveal both its strengths and weaknesses. I don't know anyone so far who has honestly applied this kind of critical thought to the ending and hasn't found it to be severely wanting.

Just because something is art does not render it free from criticism. In fact the entire point of artistry is to improve and elevate itself through craft work in order to produce an ever refined and culurally relevant message. This in turn is not possible without the application and feedback of critical analysis.

So, if developers want their games to be considered art, how exactly is it bad for them to refine their craft by flexibly and thoughtfully responding to criticism when many people find that something the have produced is in need of artistic improvement? At least in future projects to follow ME3.

[Madecologist]

Artistic integrity is a funny concept because it does go both ways. What I mean is, an artist can choose to change his art after the fact. Which ever reason it may be. Choosing to change something to please your audience is no different than changing it because you woke up the next day and realised you had one too many to drink when you finished that piece.

Also people seem to forget the alternative. A product is something that is sold to a consumer. If the consumer is unhappy it will stop buying the said product.

Now imagine if people that are so unhappy with a product that a large number stop supporting the brand name. The company will loose profits and will have to fold. This is not something you can object, it is the right of any consumer where he chooses to spend his money. You can't force me to buy a game that I don't want.

If the company goes under, all its employees must find new jobs (sometimes even changing fields). So you can hold to your vision, but it might mean you have to get a different job. Consequence Consequence. This is nothing new, the pressure to please costumers to ensure continued sales is the very driving force of the economy.

As a side note, I am not part of the Retake Movement. I am part of the Bioware should experience consequences if it doesn't get its act together (I have the right to be a dissatisified costumer). Bioware is free to choose how it will do so, just as I am free to choose how I spend my money from now on.

Modifié par Madecologist, 22 mars 2012 - 09:03 .

[Rune-Chan]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

I agree with you, OP.

And i will ignore any and every piece of information that will counter the point and just agree with you blindly.... im sorry but what?

You have your opinion and I have mine. Get over it. I wasn't even talking to you.

LOL " i agree with you OP" is opinon. What i posted was fact... Historical Fact....

I agree with what they posted. I don't feel the need to go into an elaborate reason as to why I agree. Nor do I have to explain myself to you.

You don't, but if you are not willing to back up your argument, then why should any body listen to you, or care what you have to say?

If you want to join a debate, then giving reasons behind your opinions is pretty much standard.

I personally agree that this is not a good thing in many ways. By agreeing to do something to change the ending they are opening the door for other people to do the same with every single game they dislike.

However, I also think it is almost entirely Bioware's fault for creating an ending that does not make any sense whatsoever. They can hardly claim they didn't have the time, the money or the staff. They have all three in abundance.

[CitizenSnips]

Have you considered that maybe interactive gaming as an art is created between both the developer and the customer? A shared experience, more than one party or the other?

[KroganShields]

DirtyBird627 wrote...

Yes because the fans of Dickens and Doyle totally destroyed both those writers careers ( not to mention literature as a whole ) when they demanded changes. I mean nobody reads their works anymore... Um, yeah...

Seriously, bad ending is bad, get over your fanboyism and accept that BW screwed up and at least seem to have the good sense to change it.

What the heck are you on about? Just because a small minority (of about five to ten people) filed complains against Bioware it means we're all here to destroy their career? We're not trying to 'destroy' their careers for god sakes. We're trying to HELP them here. We know for a fact that if they will release a ending DLC many of the fans will regain their trust for Bioware.

[KingKhan03]

Just think if they had delayed the game, some fans would've been mad but that is nothing compared to the crap storm they have now.

[Dreogan]

KroganShields wrote...

DirtyBird627 wrote...

Yes because the fans of Dickens and Doyle totally destroyed both those writers careers ( not to mention literature as a whole ) when they demanded changes. I mean nobody reads their works anymore... Um, yeah...

Seriously, bad ending is bad, get over your fanboyism and accept that BW screwed up and at least seem to have the good sense to change it.

What the heck are you on about? Just because a small minority (of about five to ten people) filed complains against Bioware it means we're all here to destroy their career? We're not trying to 'destroy' their careers for god sakes. We're trying to HELP them here. We know for a fact that if they will release a ending DLC many of the fans will regain their trust for Bioware.

Friendly fire. That was sarcasm.

[Myskal1981]

I'm torn with all this discussion, but I think comparing video games to books or movies is not appropriate. Forbes magazine puts it nicely with interactive art.
If I want something to be final like in a book or movie I don't even offer any kind of choice at the end.
I'm thinking for example in ME2. So I have an ending in which Shepard can die, but I also say this ending is not canon. I admit that this is an ending just for fun.
In KOTOR I'm given the choice of turning bad again, but also state that the canon ending is Revan remaining good and destroying Malak and the base.

In my opinion you cannot refer to artistic integrity if you played around with choices and alternate endings. Once you even give the feeling that a player can direct his own story, you cannot take that back. Bioware was praised for the choices they offered in the game, but did not realize they opened Pandora's box. Players now go further and demand other endings.

Also keep in mind that even with books and movies there are pre-screenings and readings to check for feedback and many get changed before final release to better suit customer demands. How is that artistic integrity? They butcher it many times for sales success.

Video games have the advantage that they can adopt even after release, something that books or movies can hardly do. I don't see a reason why they shouldn't, if there are enough people asking for it.
Now, whether ME3 needs to change is a whole different topic, but seeing the reaction here, the answer seems pretty clear.

[Quietness]

KingKhan03 wrote...

Just think if they had delayed the game, some fans would've been mad but that is nothing compared to the crap storm they have now.

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Cookies, you deserve cookies.

[Xandax]

KingKhan03 wrote...

Just think if they had delayed the game, some fans would've been mad but that is nothing compared to the crap storm they have now.

Game was already delayed at least once that we know of.

[QuarianHIV]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

Ok Ray. Post on your real account, or give it back to the real Phategod1.

[Ultra Prism]

End wasn't art at all, the true art of Mass effect 3 lied in 99% of game ... the last end game squence of starkid's drawing given to bioware's team to finish ME3 who apparently doesnt know how to draw lol

[KroganShields]

Dreogan wrote...

KroganShields wrote...

DirtyBird627 wrote...

Yes because the fans of Dickens and Doyle totally destroyed both those writers careers ( not to mention literature as a whole ) when they demanded changes. I mean nobody reads their works anymore... Um, yeah...

Seriously, bad ending is bad, get over your fanboyism and accept that BW screwed up and at least seem to have the good sense to change it.

What the heck are you on about? Just because a small minority (of about five to ten people) filed complains against Bioware it means we're all here to destroy their career? We're not trying to 'destroy' their careers for god sakes. We're trying to HELP them here. We know for a fact that if they will release a ending DLC many of the fans will regain their trust for Bioware.

Friendly fire. That was sarcasm.

Fu*k me. LOL. 
Note to self - Remember to read the whole post before tripping balls. Sorry Dirtybird.

[HenchxNarf]

Machines Are Us wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

I agree with you, OP.

And i will ignore any and every piece of information that will counter the point and just agree with you blindly.... im sorry but what?

You have your opinion and I have mine. Get over it. I wasn't even talking to you.

LOL " i agree with you OP" is opinon. What i posted was fact... Historical Fact....

I agree with what they posted. I don't feel the need to go into an elaborate reason as to why I agree. Nor do I have to explain myself to you.

You don't, but if you are not willing to back up your argument, then why should any body listen to you, or care what you have to say?

If you want to join a debate, then giving reasons behind your opinions is pretty much standard.

I personally agree that this is not a good thing in many ways. By agreeing to do something to change the ending they are opening the door for other people to do the same with every single game they dislike.

However, I also think it is almost entirely Bioware's fault for creating an ending that does not make any sense whatsoever. They can hardly claim they didn't have the time, the money or the staff. They have all three in abundance.

I agree with the OP because this would be a very bad move for BioWare (and any company that does this, really) because it would give people the false sense of entitlement to demand change to anything they don't like, now storytellers won't be able to tell the stories they want to tell for fear people will demand them change it.

It's not your story, and just because you pay money for the game, it does not give you the right to demand them to change it. You can not like it all you want, be displeased and complain. But that doesn't give you the right to demand a company to change something they spent years working on just because a hand full of fans whine about how they don't like it.

Being a consumer doesn't give you executive rights over something.

[Citizen Q]

Quietness wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

Just think if they had delayed the game, some fans would've been mad but that is nothing compared to the crap storm they have now.

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Cookies, you deserve cookies.

Used to be a saying, "A late game is only late until it's released. A bad game is bad forever"

DLC and patching have changed this in many ways, but I am still not sure that we have averted this disaster.

Modifié par Citizen Q, 22 mars 2012 - 09:07 .

[Aweus]

I dont "demand" anything. I ask them to extend ending options becouse in my opinion ending betrays the spirit of this series, something I loved so much since 2007. Quite honestly if anyone is holding someone at gunpoint here it is Bioware pointing at me, not vice-versa. Except they already shot me once in the leg with this ending (arrow to the knee jokes becomes relevant). And now I am wounded and asking why they did that (QQ). They may choose to make amendments and I shall probably eat whatever they will feed me with. Or they may choose to ignore me which will be an equivalent of sending another bullet in my way. I shall probably survive this but obviously my trust to them will be ... diminished. I dont feel anger. Just... sadness that my beloved series ends this way. Whatever Bioware will decide to do with me (and many people who feels similar to me) is up to their choice.