807 réponses à ce sujet

[KingKhan03]

Xandax wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

Just think if they had delayed the game, some fans would've been mad but that is nothing compared to the crap storm they have now.

Game was already delayed at least once that we know of.

Honestly i didnt even notice haha i was playing ME1 and ME2. The game would of been complete and satisfying thats all i care about.

[DirtyBird627]

KroganShields wrote...

DirtyBird627 wrote...

Yes because the fans of Dickens and Doyle totally destroyed both those writers careers ( not to mention literature as a whole ) when they demanded changes. I mean nobody reads their works anymore... Um, yeah...

Seriously, bad ending is bad, get over your fanboyism and accept that BW screwed up and at least seem to have the good sense to change it.

What the heck are you on about? Just because a small minority (of about five to ten people) filed complains against Bioware it means we're all here to destroy their career? We're not trying to 'destroy' their careers for god sakes. We're trying to HELP them here. We know for a fact that if they will release a ending DLC many of the fans will regain their trust for Bioware.

Obviously my sarcasm was missed here, my point was that changing a work of art does not invalidate the artist's career. The OP seemed to think that by changing a crap ending we would somehow doom the future of game storytelling, it doesn't work that way.

[Sparse]

Also if you ask EA what they would rather their customers do, take their games back to the store and get a refund or give feedback on the ending and say it should be recut to make more sense, I'm pretty sure that I know what they would say.

It wouldn't be a load of nonsensical claims about artistic integrity, I bet.

[Crovax_PSO]

I might agree with you if the Mass Effect series was a completely linear story with no variation based on player input.

However, our choices do shape the story, and by the end of the third game we should expect that they also shape the ending.  In fact, we were promised several times that they would indeed result in very different endings.  By shoehorning in one re-colored ending that doesn't depend on anything in the entire series, Bioware ruined things for us and for themselves.

So, no, we have not ruined anything by asking for what was promised to us.  Bioware did the work for us.

[KingKhan03]

Money makes the world go round bro.

[darkshadow136]

Nefelius wrote...

Tell that to Doyle and Fallout 3 team.

Yeah no kidding.

I respect your opinion OP, but I get tired of people comparing this game to art or books, it is a commercial interactive product with artisistic elements, not a piece of art to mat and hang on a wall, and not a 1st print classic book to put into a protective case..

There were certain features and promises that were made prior to launch of this game in articles and interviews. I refer you to my blog if you want the listing. Also in the case of art if you really want to go there, Michaelangelo when painting the 16th chapel had to follow the instructions of the Pope, his patron or  in modern terms his customer, and when Michaelangelo took too many liberties in his vision the Pope made him make changes.


During that time period all artists had Patrons that sponsered their art, and directed what they wanted or the artists projects got canceled. In terms of artists freedom, they have more freedom now than in any other time in history. So before anyone else tries using art  in history as a defense, please read you history first.

Modifié par darkshadow136, 22 mars 2012 - 09:10 .

[KroganShields]

DirtyBird627 wrote...

KroganShields wrote...

DirtyBird627 wrote...

Yes because the fans of Dickens and Doyle totally destroyed both those writers careers ( not to mention literature as a whole ) when they demanded changes. I mean nobody reads their works anymore... Um, yeah...

Seriously, bad ending is bad, get over your fanboyism and accept that BW screwed up and at least seem to have the good sense to change it.

What the heck are you on about? Just because a small minority (of about five to ten people) filed complains against Bioware it means we're all here to destroy their career? We're not trying to 'destroy' their careers for god sakes. We're trying to HELP them here. We know for a fact that if they will release a ending DLC many of the fans will regain their trust for Bioware.

Obviously my sarcasm was missed here, my point was that changing a work of art does not invalidate the artist's career. The OP seemed to think that by changing a crap ending we would somehow doom the future of game storytelling, it doesn't work that way.

Yeah my bad, lol. I figured it out in the fifth page and said I'm sorry.

[Endersgone]

It's interesting, claiming you're so mature and all; yet here you are making a post with the sole purpose of inciting an angry fanbase...

[Citizen Q]

Apparently we have ruined conventional Semi-Colons.

MY GOD WHAT HAVE WE DONE!

[stuka1000]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

Wether or not video games are art or not is irrelevant; the fact is that we as consumers were openly lied to.  We were promised many things in various marketing statements by various people within EA / BW and these promises were not fulfilled, far from it in fact.  A car can be considered art, the designers certainly look at them that way but if you were promised a vehicle that was capable of 150 mph and instead got something that struggled to top 30 mph you would be rightfully enraged.

If you wish to talk about precedents then start with stopping in it's tracks the precedent were a company can openly lie to it's customers in order to make a sale; then we can talk about artistic integrity.

[Chk-2000]

Could somebody please explain to me: Why does the fact that something is considered "art" make it "unchangeable"? How often do you think did painters have to change/rework their paintings because the customers that commissioned them where not satisfied with the result? More often then not I would guess. Sometimes they even had to paint over an entire picture, because nobody would buy it and they didn't have the money to buy new canvas. Does that mean those pictures where not "art"? No, it means even artists need to eat sometimes.

[Quietness]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

I agree with you, OP.

And i will ignore any and every piece of information that will counter the point and just agree with you blindly.... im sorry but what?

You have your opinion and I have mine. Get over it. I wasn't even talking to you.

LOL " i agree with you OP" is opinon. What i posted was fact... Historical Fact....

I agree with what they posted. I don't feel the need to go into an elaborate reason as to why I agree. Nor do I have to explain myself to you.

You don't, but if you are not willing to back up your argument, then why should any body listen to you, or care what you have to say?

If you want to join a debate, then giving reasons behind your opinions is pretty much standard.

I personally agree that this is not a good thing in many ways. By agreeing to do something to change the ending they are opening the door for other people to do the same with every single game they dislike.

However, I also think it is almost entirely Bioware's fault for creating an ending that does not make any sense whatsoever. They can hardly claim they didn't have the time, the money or the staff. They have all three in abundance.

I agree with the OP because this would be a very bad move for BioWare (and any company that does this, really) because it would give people the false sense of entitlement to demand change to anything they don't like, now storytellers won't be able to tell the stories they want to tell for fear people will demand them change it.

It's not your story, and just because you pay money for the game, it does not give you the right to demand them to change it. You can not like it all you want, be displeased and complain. But that doesn't give you the right to demand a company to change something they spent years working on just because a hand full of fans whine about how they don't like it.

Being a consumer doesn't give you executive rights over something.

Lol have you even read the rest of the posts or did you just come in here and go HEY I AGREE WITH YOU! Ive already responded to this before you even posted ... how nice.

[DirtyBird627]

KroganShields wrote...

DirtyBird627 wrote...

KroganShields wrote...

DirtyBird627 wrote...

Yes because the fans of Dickens and Doyle totally destroyed both those writers careers ( not to mention literature as a whole ) when they demanded changes. I mean nobody reads their works anymore... Um, yeah...

Seriously, bad ending is bad, get over your fanboyism and accept that BW screwed up and at least seem to have the good sense to change it.

What the heck are you on about? Just because a small minority (of about five to ten people) filed complains against Bioware it means we're all here to destroy their career? We're not trying to 'destroy' their careers for god sakes. We're trying to HELP them here. We know for a fact that if they will release a ending DLC many of the fans will regain their trust for Bioware.

Obviously my sarcasm was missed here, my point was that changing a work of art does not invalidate the artist's career. The OP seemed to think that by changing a crap ending we would somehow doom the future of game storytelling, it doesn't work that way.

Yeah my bad, lol. I figured it out in the fifth page and said I'm sorry.

Yea i saw it, not to worry, I made my reply before I caught it.

[VAIOMANIAC]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

Ok first of all writers and directors have changed endings and sometimes entire plot points in both books and movies several times.

This is not some rare event neither is it the first time it has happened in games Fallout 3 changed ending because of fan feedback and Bethesda has been doing alot better in the story department than Bioware lately.

When movies are being screen testet sometimes scenes are cut because of audience feedback even endings have been changed. 

Charles Dickens even changed the ending in one of his books because negative fan feedback.

And in movies there are even more examples Blade Runner for instance exists in five different versions, the movie Brazil has several different versions that was offically released in a box set,  including the one the director Terry Gillian hated and had nothing to do with.

Look at many times story has been changed as a result of fan feedback and you will be surprised at the result.

That is all

[HenchxNarf]

Quietness wrote...

Lol have you even read the rest of the posts or did you just come in here and go HEY I AGREE WITH YOU! Ive already responded to this before you even posted ... how nice.

Troll away, hope you have fun.

Modifié par HenchxNarf, 22 mars 2012 - 09:12 .

[KingKhan03]

Honestly these forums are the best.

[Nu-Nu]

It is because I read, that I can see Bioware using cheap tricks and saying that will do. The ending is rushed and not as thought as the rest of the game.

The beauty of curing the genophage was the angst that you felt. Do you cure the genophage and risk the Krogans attacking other races?

Well, you no longer have to worry about Krogan attacking other races now, whether you have Wreave/Wrex, since they can't get to other races without the relays. Takes away the depth and worry over that question, turns the whole thing into you only saving the Krogan for the love.

They only decided what to do at the end of 2011. They damaged their own art by rushing the ending. It's like painting a realistic painting but then just throwing paint on to finish it.

[Quietness]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Lol have you even read the rest of the posts or did you just come in here and go HEY I AGREE WITH YOU! Ive already responded to this before you even posted ... how nice.

Troll away, hope you have fun.

Rofl you call me a troll? wow. pot and kettle?

[HenchxNarf]

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Lol have you even read the rest of the posts or did you just come in here and go HEY I AGREE WITH YOU! Ive already responded to this before you even posted ... how nice.

Troll away, hope you have fun.

Rofl you call me a troll? wow. pot and kettle?

You wanted an explanation and I gave you one. But yet you continue.

[MrFob]

To the OP:
Ok, first of all, what is artistic integrity? If someone makes a movie and later makes a directors cut, is that compromising the artistic integrity? If writer writes a book and then writes a sequel, that does not adhere what was established in the first one (similar to what the ME3 endings did), that changed things and does that compromise artistic integrity? When Raphael or Michelangelo made alterations to their sculptures and paintings to get the end result we see and admire today because their patrons demanded it, does that corrupt artistic integrity? I find the whole concept very flimsy and an argument on a flimsy basis is never a good idea.
2. How important is artistic integrity and why? Why shouldn't changes be made if they improve the end result? This is a point that IMO is very specific to entertainment art rather then really abstract art. You could argue that the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica series compromised the artistic integrity of the original series but still, millions of people enjoyed it immensly and I ask you, is that such a bad thing?
3. And here comes the crucial point, we (as in the fans) do not change the ending! We are telling the artist (BW) that we are not happy with it and that we'd like to see a change/addition. If the ending were to be changed, it would be solely and only BW's decision to do so and they would be the ones to implement the change. It would still be their artistic vision if they wished to do so. We are asking for that, but we are not proposing to take the prerogative to change it away from BW. On the contrary, we would no one else to do it.
Here is a horrible little story for you: If Leonardo Da Vinci after finishing the Mona Lisa would have taken a huge read brush and painted one big line over the whole painting in the end, I am sure people would be really unhappy and would like for that line to be removed. Now ignore the fact that for a painting this is much harder to do than for a video game. If anyone but Leonardo would remove that line, I'd also cry "foul" but if people urge Leonardo to do it and he takes pitty on them and does it, in my view, that would be perfectly fine. (at this point, I'd like to apologize for the horrible analogy but I am just trying to get my point across here).
Of course, you can disagree on this and say the read line has to stay, that's fine but at that point I'd like to say that this already shows that "artistic integrity"" is not something objective that everyone has to view in the same way.
If BoiWare wants to listen to the upset fans, they are damn well free to do so in my opinion. You call us entitled for asking, I am saying it is entitled to say we should not due to some abstract concept which is absolutely subjective.

Modifié par MrFob, 22 mars 2012 - 09:16 .

[meteng]

Disagree, OP. If the dev team had done justice to the series with the ending rather than the atrocious, rushed rubbish that is then you may have had a point. Although I must say that I have no problem with the concept of a more collaborative relationship between devs and their audience.

[Quietness]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Lol have you even read the rest of the posts or did you just come in here and go HEY I AGREE WITH YOU! Ive already responded to this before you even posted ... how nice.

Troll away, hope you have fun.

Rofl you call me a troll? wow. pot and kettle?

You wanted an explanation and I gave you one. But yet you continue.

No i was hoping you would go back and go "gee, i see what they are talking about...." lol instead you throw together a response that shows you just jumped in here typed a quick troll response and waited for (in this case me) to respond... than you call me a troll? teehee

[DESTRAUDO]

In polls half the people demanded a lalala happy ending. They will never get it. I hope they never get it.

People have given examples of times in the past when artists have had to cave. That does not make those examples a good thing.

Take a poll of how many people would want LEON in the movie LEON to live at the end. I guarantee you if it came to a majority vote they would have to ruin the ending of leon.

Take a poll of how many people think it would be better if simbas dad in lion king had not died. Bam. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people would have wanted arnie to live at the end of terminator 2. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people want Danny to die at the end of american history X. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people want maggie to die at the end of million dollar baby. classic ruined forever.

All the people who would demand changes to those endings could pull out the line that artists need to be humble and change according to feedback but the result would still ruin the tone of all of those movies.

Bioware have stated they will try and clarify the ending while keeping their artistic integrity. The tone at the end of mass effect ranges from bleak to optimism depending on your choice. They cannot throw in a happy happy lets party ending that 50 percent of people want without divorcing the tone of the end of the game from everything that happened in the previous 40 hours.

It would be like having the happy happy dance ending of fantastic mr fox at the end of saving private ryan. It would be like having a jovial bar scene at the end of empire strikes back.


They wont add that unicorn ending if they have an ounce of dignity and the fact they say they will be aiming to preserve artistic integrity shows they wont. They will add more clarity to the current ending. If people are very lucky they will add a prologue that shows an optimism for the future through a determination to rebuild.

So no matter what happens 50 percent of the people complaining now will still be complaining when this is all done.

Modifié par DESTRAUDO, 22 mars 2012 - 09:19 .

[KingKhan03]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Lol have you even read the rest of the posts or did you just come in here and go HEY I AGREE WITH YOU! Ive already responded to this before you even posted ... how nice.

Troll away, hope you have fun.

Rofl you call me a troll? wow. pot and kettle?

You wanted an explanation and I gave you one. But yet you continue.

A fellow calgarian can never be a troll

[Quietness]

KingKhan03 wrote...

A fellow calgarian can never be a troll

WOOT WOOT