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Congratulations You have ruined conventional; storytelling in games for the future


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#151
Chk-2000

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MrFob wrote...

To the OP:
Ok, first of all, what is artistic integrity? If someone makes a movie and later makes a directors cut, is that compromising the artistic integrity? If writer writes a book and then writes a sequel, that does not adhere what was established in the first one (similar to what the ME3 endings did), that changed things and does that compromise artistic integrity? When Raphael or Michelangelo made alterations to their sculptures and paintings to get the end result we see and admire today because their patrons demanded it, does that corrupt artistic integrity? I find the whole concept very flimsy and an argument on a flimsy basis is never a good idea.
2. How important is artistic integrity and why? Why shouldn't changes be made if they improve the end result? This is a point that IMO is very specific to entertainment art rather then really abstract art. You could argue that the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica series compromised the artistic integrity of the original series but still, millions of people enjoyed it immensly and I ask you, is that such a bad thing?
3. And here comes the crucial point, we (as in the fans) do not change the ending! We are telling the artist (BW) that we are not happy with it and that we'd like to see a change/addition. If the ending were to be changed, it would be solely and only BW's decision to do so and they would be the ones to implement the change. It would still be their artistic vision if they wished to do so. We are asking for that, but we are not proposing to take the prerogative to change it away from BW. On the contrary, we would no one else to do it.
Here is a horrible little story for you: If Leonardo Da Vinci after finishing the Mona Lisa would have taken a huge read brush and painted one big line over the whole painting in the end, I am sure people would be really unhappy and would like for that line to be removed. Now ignore the fact that for a painting this is much harder to do than for a video game. If anyone but Leonardo would remove that line, I'd also cry "foul" but if people urge Leonardo to do it and he takes pitty on them and does it, in my view, that would be perfectly fine. (at this point, I'd like to apologize for the horrible analogy but I am just trying to get my point across here).
Of course, you can disagree on this and say the read line has to stay, that's fine but at that point I'd like to say that this already shows that "artistic integrity"" is not something objective that everyone has to view in the same way.
If BoiWare wants to listen to the upset fans, they are damn well free to do so in my opinion. You call us entitled for asking, I am saying it is entitled to say we should not due to some abstract concept which is absolutely subjective.


Well said.

#152
KingKhan03

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Quietness wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

A fellow calgarian can never be a troll


WOOT WOOT


CALGARY REPRESENT!!:D

#153
Phaedros

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An unmade bed is Art..

I have Art in the corner of my room (still on first coffee)

When I have made it it will be neat and tidy, but I guess it won't be Art any more..

.. but it WILL be better..

#154
HenchxNarf

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Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Lol have you even read the rest of the posts or did you just come in here and go HEY I AGREE WITH YOU! Ive already responded to this before you even posted ... how nice.


Troll away, hope you have fun.


Rofl you call me a troll? wow. pot and kettle?


You wanted an explanation and I gave you one. But yet you continue.


No i was hoping you would go back and go "gee, i see what they are talking about...." lol instead you throw together a response that shows you just jumped in here typed a quick troll response and waited for (in this case me) to respond... than you call me a troll? teehee


Because I DON'T agree with you. And that is my right. And you have NO right to tell me how to think. You are the one that called out my post. I did NOTHING to you for you to do that. So yes, you are the troll here.

#155
omntt

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You know, even the best renaissance artists had to change their works to please their customers sometimes.

#156
Citizen Q

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KingKhan03 wrote...

Quietness wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

A fellow calgarian can never be a troll


WOOT WOOT


CALGARY REPRESENT!!:D


CANADIA!

#157
Quietness

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HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Lol have you even read the rest of the posts or did you just come in here and go HEY I AGREE WITH YOU! Ive already responded to this before you even posted ... how nice.


Troll away, hope you have fun.


Rofl you call me a troll? wow. pot and kettle?


You wanted an explanation and I gave you one. But yet you continue.


No i was hoping you would go back and go "gee, i see what they are talking about...." lol instead you throw together a response that shows you just jumped in here typed a quick troll response and waited for (in this case me) to respond... than you call me a troll? teehee


Because I DON'T agree with you. And that is my right. And you have NO right to tell me how to think. You are the one that called out my post. I did NOTHING to you for you to do that. So yes, you are the troll here.


Lol you dont agree with facts? i mean... really? lol kay...

#158
Demonburnt

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@OP

take this as an example...

I am an artist but the public and the law enforcement don't like my art and they try to stop it.

I see nothing wrong with painting the walls red with the blood of my neighbors.

-----------------------------

Mass effect 3 ending as it stands is something like the example ive shown.

#159
darkshadow136

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omntt wrote...

You know, even the best renaissance artists had to change their works to please their customers sometimes.


I'm glad I'm not the only one to point that out. :)

#160
KingKhan03

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My dog took a crap on the sidewalk i dont wanna insult his artistic integrity by cleaning it up.

#161
Aweus

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DESTRAUDO wrote...

In polls half the people demanded a lalala happy ending. They will never get it. I hope they never get it.

People have given examples of times in the past when artists have had to cave. That does not make those examples a good thing.

Take a poll of how many people would want LEON in the movie LEON to live at the end. I guarantee you if it came to a majority vote they would have to ruin the ending of leon.

Take a poll of how many people think it would be better if simbas dad in lion king had not died. Bam. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people would have wanted arnie to live at the end of terminator 2. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people want Danny to die at the end of american history X. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people want maggie to die at the end of million dollar baby. classic ruined forever.

All the people who would demand changes to those endings could pull out the line that artists need to be humble and change according to feedback but the result would still ruin the tone of all of those movies.

Bioware have stated they will try and clarify the ending while keeping their artistic integrity. The tone at the end of mass effect ranges from bleak to optimism depending on your choice. They cannot throw in a happy happy lets party ending that 50 percent of people want without divorcing the tone of the end of the game from everything that happened in the previous 40 hours.

It would be like having the happy happy dance ending of fantastic mr fox at the end of saving private ryan. It would be like having a jovial bar scene at the end of empire strikes back.


They wont add that unicorn ending if they have an ounce of dignity and the fact they say they will be aiming to preserve artistic integrity shows they wont. They will add more clarity to the current ending. If people are very lucky they will add a prologue that shows an optimism for the future through a determination to rebuild.

Oh. My. God. Not. Again.
Seriously. Aside from the fact if happy ending is what you, me or anyone else wants. How is presence of OPTION of such ending in the INTERACTIVE VIDEO GAME ruins in any way experience of someone who finds such ending appaling? You may never ever see it by yourself if you wish so. Please, explain me. Pretty please, let me understand.

Modifié par Aweus, 22 mars 2012 - 09:22 .


#162
Nicky 192

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omntt wrote...

You know, even the best renaissance artists had to change their works to please their customers sometimes.

This^

#163
Gruzmog

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I respectfully disagree with you OP.

To me this means games should have endings that make sense in the context of the game and should deliver upon promises. Any game that does fit these criteria should be changed if that is what feedback boils down too.

I see this as a good thing.

#164
Quietness

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KingKhan03 wrote...

Quietness wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

A fellow calgarian can never be a troll


WOOT WOOT


CALGARY REPRESENT!!:D



YAAAAAAAAY CRAPPY WEATHER. I MEAN YAY CALGARY!

#165
Vlad1113

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Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.


Simply put, when you give something a deadline and you add commercial overtones, then you add hours of footage of you the individual apparently managing the whole endeavour quoting about how player input was the driving force...you simply cannot claim individual artistic licence.

The ending, was rushed to meet a deadline. If you believe the leaked Weekes letter the content was not peer checked. If you KNEW anything about writing you would know that a writer has an editor ie peer checking, in some cases several editors and books when they hit the shelf are generally altered from origin.
The same can be pretty much said of anything that is art but used in a commercial way i.e to sell it to the public.
In fact most sellable modern media including art on demand (paintings photography etc) is all channeled and considered in this light first 'will it sell'

A real piece of art is given for consideration, and the artist is not concerned if it sells. That in mind the vast majority of the game and its setting is simply brilliant 'art' in a commercial sense, then ending of number 3 is just rushed and botched.

Get a grip on some reality before  you go swooning about how art is affected , actually look into the subject first.

#166
Quietness

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i sang hokey-pokey in a thread earlier, its art, damn beautiful art. You will not stamp out my artistic integrity Dangit!

#167
KingKhan03

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Quietness wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

Quietness wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

A fellow calgarian can never be a troll


WOOT WOOT


CALGARY REPRESENT!!:D



YAAAAAAAAY CRAPPY WEATHER. I MEAN YAY CALGARY!


LOL watch it snows like hell in a few hours.

#168
Myskal1981

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DESTRAUDO wrote...

In polls half the people demanded a lalala happy ending. They will never get it. I hope they never get it.

People have given examples of times in the past when artists have had to cave. That does not make those examples a good thing.

Take a poll of how many people would want LEON in the movie LEON to live at the end. I guarantee you if it came to a majority vote they would have to ruin the ending of leon.

Take a poll of how many people think it would be better if simbas dad in lion king had not died. Bam. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people would have wanted arnie to live at the end of terminator 2. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people want Danny to die at the end of american history X. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people want maggie to die at the end of million dollar baby. classic ruined forever.

All the people who would demand changes to those endings could pull out the line that artists need to be humble and change according to feedback but the result would still ruin the tone of all of those movies.

Bioware have stated they will try and clarify the ending while keeping their artistic integrity. The tone at the end of mass effect ranges from bleak to optimism depending on your choice. They cannot throw in a happy happy lets party ending that 50 percent of people want without divorcing the tone of the end of the game from everything that happened in the previous 40 hours.

It would be like having the happy happy dance ending of fantastic mr fox at the end of saving private ryan. It would be like having a jovial bar scene at the end of empire strikes back.


They wont add that unicorn ending if they have an ounce of dignity and the fact they say they will be aiming to preserve artistic integrity shows they wont. They will add more clarity to the current ending. If people are very lucky they will add a prologue that shows an optimism for the future through a determination to rebuild.


My impression was that many do not complain because they want a happy ending. If that was be the case, I would agree with you.
Video games are not conventional story telling. This can also be seen easily in Bioware games where you have choices, you interact. Books and Movies you consume. The finality of the product is a defining factor and also a reason why changes to it nearly never happen and also the reason why you pre-screen movies and pre-read books to check whether you are going to have success with the product.

#169
Quietness

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KingKhan03 wrote...

Quietness wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

Quietness wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

A fellow calgarian can never be a troll


WOOT WOOT


CALGARY REPRESENT!!:D



YAAAAAAAAY CRAPPY WEATHER. I MEAN YAY CALGARY!


LOL watch it snows like hell in a few hours.



SHHHHHH the mounds are almost gone in front of my house FINALLY!

#170
RoyalGambit

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TheRisenStar wrote...

That Charles Dickens, what a sellout he was. He endangered conventional storytelling forever!

this.

#171
Phategod1

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linsanity wrote...

when the Mona Lisa was xray'd artists dicovered multiple mouths under the finished work, some were smiles and some were not. art can become better with revision and reworking.

That said, I dont feel comfortable with Bioware talking about artistic integrety at this time. Its clear they dropped the ball badly. The ending is ridden with plot holes and breaks so many promises Bioware made to us regarding choice. They have compromised themselves here.

Last not least. This is a mass marketed product. calling it art is a compliment but not legally accurate.


That the Thing though It was Leo's decision that those smiles were not perfect no one elses, and to answer someone elses question, art ceases to be art when the artist conformes there art at the behest of the consumer. And I'm not saying that no one here does not have the right to speak there opinion on the ending but when you demand they change the ending comepletly, thats when you as a consumer have over stepped your bounds. If you never want to buy another Bioware/EA game thats your right but to demand them to change a finished a product and if they actually do it you have sucessfully destoryed the artistic integrity of the product. 

#172
Sparse

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I think you will actually find what this whole mess has achieved is to allow writers to retain a little control over what they are doing rather than having their managers interfering.

I find it very hard to believe that any writer would want to basically copy a chunk of another work and put it into their own totally different work as happened at the end of ME3. That smacks of a management decision.

#173
Nefelius

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Did Leonardo have a business plan and marketing strategy while painting Mona Lisa? I'm more than sure that he did not, because his work was art.

#174
KroganShields

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KingKhan03 wrote...

My dog took a crap on the sidewalk i dont wanna insult his artistic integrity by cleaning it up.


It's funny because it makes more sense then the ME3 ending.

#175
KingKhan03

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Phategod1 wrote...

linsanity wrote...

when the Mona Lisa was xray'd artists dicovered multiple mouths under the finished work, some were smiles and some were not. art can become better with revision and reworking.

That said, I dont feel comfortable with Bioware talking about artistic integrety at this time. Its clear they dropped the ball badly. The ending is ridden with plot holes and breaks so many promises Bioware made to us regarding choice. They have compromised themselves here.

Last not least. This is a mass marketed product. calling it art is a compliment but not legally accurate.


That the Thing though It was Leo's decision that those smiles were not perfect no one elses, and to answer someone elses question, art ceases to be art when the artist conformes there art at the behest of the consumer. And I'm not saying that no one here does not have the right to speak there opinion on the ending but when you demand they change the ending comepletly, thats when you as a consumer have over stepped your bounds. If you never want to buy another Bioware/EA game thats your right but to demand them to change a finished a product and if they actually do it you have sucessfully destoryed the artistic integrity of the product. 

omg the OP appeared as if it was some sort of space magic!?:wizard: