807 réponses à ce sujet

[Elyiia]

Bioware told us what they could give us, we said okay and told them to create the "painting". The "painting" didn't match what we agreed on. Artistic integrity does not apply, at all.

[elferin91]

Phategod1 wrote...


What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

FINNALY SOMEBODY GETS IT........ actually i think you are right here but i don't think you get it.
While I do see games as "art" just for the sake of ME3 horrible ending I'm gonna say that it isn't.
How can you say something is an "art" if it has a deadline, it was rushed because it wasn't given enough time AND it's sole purpose was to sell to a larger crowd ignoring the established fanbase. What "artist" in his right mind would do that. Also everyone talks like Bioware is one person, but the truth is, you wouldn't believe it, it's a lot of people under one company, so how can that be an "artistic" vision if on the same product worked more then one writer?
Also not having any right? B**** Please

http://www.youtube.c...p-eggD1Q#t=649s

this should put you back into your seat

[Dark Specie]

Crovax_PSO wrote...

I might agree with you if the Mass Effect series was a completely linear story with no variation based on player input.

However, our choices do shape the story, and by the end of the third game we should expect that they also shape the ending.  In fact, we were promised several times that they would indeed result in very different endings.  By shoehorning in one re-colored ending that doesn't depend on anything in the entire series, Bioware ruined things for us and for themselves.

So, no, we have not ruined anything by asking for what was promised to us.  Bioware did the work for us.

Basically this for me. I've watched many movies, read many books, played many linear story games... all in the knowledge that there isn't jack squat I can do to change the endings. And indeed, most of us accept this is the case in those cases. But if we're talking about a role-playing game, where our choices are supposed to matter and we're supposed to be able to get various outcomes depending on our efforts... Well, then it's another matter altogether.

[Quietness]

KingKhan03 wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

linsanity wrote...

when the Mona Lisa was xray'd artists dicovered multiple mouths under the finished work, some were smiles and some were not. art can become better with revision and reworking.

That said, I dont feel comfortable with Bioware talking about artistic integrety at this time. Its clear they dropped the ball badly. The ending is ridden with plot holes and breaks so many promises Bioware made to us regarding choice. They have compromised themselves here.

Last not least. This is a mass marketed product. calling it art is a compliment but not legally accurate.

That the Thing though It was Leo's decision that those smiles were not perfect no one elses, and to answer someone elses question, art ceases to be art when the artist conformes there art at the behest of the consumer. And I'm not saying that no one here does not have the right to speak there opinion on the ending but when you demand they change the ending comepletly, thats when you as a consumer have over stepped your bounds. If you never want to buy another Bioware/EA game thats your right but to demand them to change a finished a product and if they actually do it you have sucessfully destoryed the artistic integrity of the product. 

omg the OP appeared as if it was some sort of space magic!?

lol and contridicts himself. he learned well from the starchild! OMG ITS THE STARCHILD S*** EVERYONE RUN BEFORE HE FORCES YOU TO PLAY CHOOSE YOUR WARCRIME!

[Phategod1]

alx119 wrote...

I find curious how all the people that start threads like these never reply in them. I've only seen a few actually rebate the arguments made against them, they weren't exactly right, but I respect their sense of bravery.

I posted this Thread 4 AM EST I had no Idea it would balloon to a 7 page thread in short of an hour.  

[IST]

Bioware are an evolving game developer, they listen and respond more than anyone - and this is just an example of them making an informed but bold decision to improve their piece of 'Malleable Art' for their fans.

How exactly, does this ruin conventional storytelling in games OP?  A reason, that makes sense would be nice.. 

[meteng]

Happy ending? Not the point. Mordin was my favourite character and yet his death is one of the highlights of ME3. It was extremely well done and, more to the point, it fit his character perfectly. The game's ending did not fit anything in the series.

[Swisspease]

...and conventional story telling is refusing a 10+ year old video game ending? I know in this day and age it's hard to be original, but come on use some thought and originality.

[KingKhan03]

i dont understand what boundaries i've overstepped i'm not at the Bioware offices with a sword and shield ready to go to town. Although they are in Edmonton..hmm.

[Quietness]

KingKhan03 wrote...

i dont understand what boundaries i've overstepped i'm not at the Bioware offices with a sword and shield ready to go to town. Although they are in Edmonton..hmm.

yea i realized that about 20 minutes after i almost threw my monitor out the window... my wife saw that look in my eye and conned me not too with JD



btw Amazing Art : 
 

[KingKhan03]

Quietness wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

i dont understand what boundaries i've overstepped i'm not at the Bioware offices with a sword and shield ready to go to town. Although they are in Edmonton..hmm.

yea i realized that about 20 minutes after i almost threw my monitor out the window... my wife saw that look in my eye and conned me not too with JD



btw Amazing Art : 
 

Omg the ending all makes sense now it was nyan cat all along.

Modifié par KingKhan03, 22 mars 2012 - 09:33 .

[Edje Edgar]

Artist can make whatever crap they want and never be held responsible? Sorry, who's entitled now?

You're judging us based on so-called 'absolute truths' and assumptions. Sounds like an ending to a game I know.

[Evil_medved]

Good.We making history here gentlemen!

[Mavaras]

Phategod1 wrote...

 1st let me say that this following statement is for older individuals with common sense and the ability to form coherent sentences. Your the ones I am disappointed in, not the 16 year old children who should not even be playing the M rated ME1 from several years ago. What you dont understand is, if Bioware and Casey Hudson have agreed to actually change the ending based on the arguaments, then what has been achieved is the fans have comepletely invalidated Casey Hudson's artistic vision, and video games artistic value as a whole. 

What this means is video games are not art, have no artistic value and are just a product. Movies, books, and other form set to entertain can be claimed as art as such we all can base an opinion on it, but when you demand the artist change it, most times they'll laugh in your face and tell you to sod off because its there art they made it and its your choice to enjoy it or not or buy it or not. When the finished product is comprimised for the sake of the vocal majority of the customers then the product is not an artistic vision but just a product. 

For all those entitled individuals you paid $60-$190 for A game or games. If you do not work for Bioware or the dev team for Mass Effect then you do not have the right to demand story changes. Sure, you made decisions that affected your Shepard but those are decions that were given to you by Casey and the writers, every single piece of fiction has plotholes thats a fact of life. For those who don't like the ending, you have a right to your opinion but when you demand a change, you have over stepped your bounds as a fan and a consumer, and you may singlehandedly destroyed modern story telling in games. 

Thanks for any one who took the time to read all this and Apoligize for length and any spelling or grammatical errors I missed.

I don't believe the world is black and white. I promise you, our motivation and goals are a little less sinister than robbing the world of art... Not to mention, if people based their realities on precedence and entrenched thinking, we would never grow in anything; art included. Interaction like this can be revolutionary; it is only destructive if you choose to spin it so. Besides, as others have said, you can argue this isn't a new concept.

We are talking about possibilities here... Not the death of modern story telling.

This isn't even mentioning the fact that there are a wide variety of opinions on what we even want out of Bioware. Many would be fine with DLC, which isn't nearly as "invasive"; it could entail elaboration and not a rewrite. Bioware still has its artistic integrity. That's why they are being very careful about how they want to handle this entire dialogue with us. They could very well find a way to give us the ending we want without compromising much of anything... 

This is Bioware we are talking about, BIOWARE. Thinking about their merit gives me tingles. They are interested in our feedback. Sure, it hurts when you don't knock an important one out of the park, but your teammates pick you up, and dust you off, tell you what you did wrong, and more importantly what you did right, and you go on to win the world series baby! This is a moment for Bioware to prove its greatness in a way not many gaming companies would even think of jiving. It's amazing and it's exciting. We sit on the precipice of a monumental achievement for the relationship a developer can have with its fan base. We are trying to broker something breaking-edge; this isn't a movement born of self-entitlement and hatred... We are here because we love games, we love stories, we love art, we love interacting with it, and we love those who create it.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the skepticism of an outsider. Art is something worth vanguarding from harm; but harm isn't our plan. So many people misunderstand our most basic principles because they are over taken with anger before seeking the truth about what we represent. Just survey the broad conversation and don't get caught up on the niches. There is a lot of good going on here man, just give it a second look.

I invite you to further comment on this matter as I would entertain a dialogue with you.

Modifié par Mavaras, 22 mars 2012 - 09:39 .

[Quietness]

yup and it became the Nyamandy (the actual artists got it almost right with Nyanmandy)

[darkshadow136]

Phategod1 wrote...

alx119 wrote...

I find curious how all the people that start threads like these never reply in them. I've only seen a few actually rebate the arguments made against them, they weren't exactly right, but I respect their sense of bravery.

I posted this Thread 4 AM EST I had no Idea it would balloon to a 7 page thread in short of an hour.  

No offense OP, But when you present a case like you did , that can be easily defeated by historical facts you will get a lot of feedback in short order.

[Nataladass]

best argument:
if a shareholder asks the devs to cut or change things it's always "yes, sir, thank you sir"
if a customer asks the devs to change something it's: "no we can't. it's art u know"

i invested a lot of money in these games (I own all ME games twice or thrice including all DLC packs), i invested a lot of time in the story. i designed my own shepard, this is MY story too.

[bigbade]

Too bad you shoot yourself down in your own post OP, we payed for a product that didn't meet its publicity and thus have every right to demand they meet the satisfaction that we not only want, but that they flat out told us we would get months earlier.

And don't throw the terrible art argument into this, it was art in ME1 and it the continuity of all that is what kept it so, throwing all that out the window in the last 5 minutes is as much art as pasting a penis onto the mona lisas' forehead.

[Mastermadskills]

Why I dislike this thread and the author:

#1.  The premise of this thread is not backed up, OP states opinion as fact, and OP immediately starts out with an air of contention.

#2.  OP complains about bad writing and reading comprehension by 15 year olds, when the writer himself writes on a level equal to that of a 15 year old.

#3.  Premise of "art" not only opinion based, but fails on all levels.

#4.  Poorly organized writing.  Does not follow conventional persuasion frame of O.R.E.O style writing.

#5.  Not only is the writing terrible, but I disagree and strongly oppose every single persuasionary point of this thread sheerly on principle.




1/5 star rating deserved.  1/5 stars rating given.

Modifié par Mastermadskills, 22 mars 2012 - 09:42 .

[Quietness]

Nataladass wrote...

best argument:
if a shareholder asks the devs to cut or change things it's always "yes, sir, thank you sir"
if a customer asks the devs to change something it's: "no we can't. it's art u know"

i invested a lot of money in these games (I own all ME games twice or thrice including all DLC packs), i invested a lot of time in the story. i designed my own shepard, this is MY story too.

Nah the art thing was cause they had trouble using entitled without people pointing and laughing at them. Suddenly the arguement because about BUT ITS ART!

[Tinmachine]

Bioware marketed a product that didn´t meet consumer expectations. The consumers are complaining. What´s not to understand? I am proud to be a member of a consumer community that is able to articulate its discontent with being fed unfinished, unpolished, or over-hyped products. It´s been a trend for some time. I also hope this outcry has some repercussions throughout the gaming industry.

We need to stand up for ourselves, because nobody else will.

[DESTRAUDO]

Because as i said, it would create a jarring change of tone at the end of the game.  You seem to think you should have the happy happy choice. 

Tell me.

Where was the happy happy choice in ME1 when you had to choose between kaiden and ashley? 

Where was the happy happy choice in Arrival DLC where you got to warn the batarian colony and allow them to escape?
Where was the happy happy choice in ME3 where you got to cure the genophage and keep mordin alive?
Where was the happy happy choice in ME3 where you got to resolve the geth war without losing legion and tali?

What you see in ME3 rather beginning in arrival dlc in earnest but grounded in the foundation of the choice in ME1 is that there is not always an optimal scenario. If anything players were spoiled with the ability to resolve disputes perfectly between squadmates in me2. You should have had to pick your sides in those fights and had to deal with it. 

So yeah, in a game full of situations where you are not given an optimal choice, you want an ending that gives a happy happy optimal choice. Why stop at the ending. They should rewrite ALL the priority missions to give you a rediculous happy scenario if you keep blindly hammering the paragon button.  And why stop there, they should also rewrite ME1 to remove the need to choose between kaiden or ashley.  Everyone is happy! 

Simply put. No. 
 

Aweus wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

In polls half the people demanded a lalala happy ending. They will never get it. I hope they never get it.

People have given examples of times in the past when artists have had to cave. That does not make those examples a good thing.

Take a poll of how many people would want LEON in the movie LEON to live at the end. I guarantee you if it came to a majority vote they would have to ruin the ending of leon.

Take a poll of how many people think it would be better if simbas dad in lion king had not died. Bam. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people would have wanted arnie to live at the end of terminator 2. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people want Danny to die at the end of american history X. classic ruined forever.

Take a poll of how many people want maggie to die at the end of million dollar baby. classic ruined forever.

All the people who would demand changes to those endings could pull out the line that artists need to be humble and change according to feedback but the result would still ruin the tone of all of those movies.

Bioware have stated they will try and clarify the ending while keeping their artistic integrity. The tone at the end of mass effect ranges from bleak to optimism depending on your choice. They cannot throw in a happy happy lets party ending that 50 percent of people want without divorcing the tone of the end of the game from everything that happened in the previous 40 hours.

It would be like having the happy happy dance ending of fantastic mr fox at the end of saving private ryan. It would be like having a jovial bar scene at the end of empire strikes back.


They wont add that unicorn ending if they have an ounce of dignity and the fact they say they will be aiming to preserve artistic integrity shows they wont. They will add more clarity to the current ending. If people are very lucky they will add a prologue that shows an optimism for the future through a determination to rebuild.

Oh. My. God. Not. Again.
Seriously. Aside from the fact if happy ending is what you, me or anyone else wants. How is presence of OPTION of such ending in the INTERACTIVE VIDEO GAME ruins in any way experience of someone who finds such ending appaling? You may never ever see it by yourself if you wish so. Please, explain me. Pretty please, let me understand.

Modifié par DESTRAUDO, 22 mars 2012 - 09:38 .

[Quietness]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

alx119 wrote...

I find curious how all the people that start threads like these never reply in them. I've only seen a few actually rebate the arguments made against them, they weren't exactly right, but I respect their sense of bravery.

I posted this Thread 4 AM EST I had no Idea it would balloon to a 7 page thread in short of an hour.  

No offense OP, But when you present a case like you did , that can be easily defeated by historical facts you will get a lot of feedback in short order.

Its really too bad that most of the "Pro" writers that are spewing this we couldnt just shove down the throat of ( not as in a literal sense) ....

[Stigweird85]

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

“Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”

This means that I am now co-artist. Have I no say in how the art has turned out if I'm the one who helped create it?

I'm not going to demand a change, I am just giving them feedback and hoping they listen to me. If I think that it is best to make a dlc available to fix the ending, that is my opinion.

To claim to be a co-creator is a bit much. Despite our choices we are still playing with the toys that Bioware created.

It would be like buying a lego set of a house that had extra bricks of different colours so you could customise it. You would build a unique house to you but you would still be confined by what was supplied to you. No amount of redesign of different colours would change the fact that you purchased a house that someone else created.