34 réponses à ce sujet

[PsiFive]

DapperDan77 wrote...

There are 3 brokenly good powers in ME 1. Immunity, adrenaline rush and singularity (lift too if nemesis). vanguard has all of them except Immunity.

Adrenalin rush in ME1? I don't remember that and I've just started a new game. Whereizzit? I wants it! Can an Infiltrator get it?

[Arkalezth]

Soldiers and vanguards have it, but it doesn't work like on the other games, it just resets all other cooldowns. Useful for vanguards, no so much for soldiers (it may have some more use at early levels for the latter).

[DapperDan77]

ncknck wrote...

Vanguard is actually a bad class. True, it has a lot of skills. But he still has the same number of points to spend as everyone else, and have you noticed all his extras require full investment. Marksman? 12 points. Adrenaline Rush? 12 points. Wanna use medium armor? 7 points. Shotgun? forget it. After the obligatory basics, you can max about 6 skills, which is less than he has skills.

Vanguard is so far from being a bad class. You're funny.
It's true that there aren't many points to spare, but I still have everything maxed that I want maxed. Enough in armour to wear medium, Marksman and ass training maxed obv., Nemesis maxed, all biotics maxed except barrier which is at 1 point (barrier is a great 1-pointer), maxed charm (only 8 points needed here due to the free points). and 10 points in spectre training (Only needs 4 really, the rest I could/should have put in barrier, but decided I wanted the few % increase to damage. Rarely died tbh, barrier seemed not too important to me.)

Shotgun? forget it.

You say this like not having shotguns is missing out. Pistols are >>>>>> shotguns. Even if there were no requirements to spend points in shotties, I'd still be going pistols.

Singularity as bonus, see no use, he doesnt have points for it and can
cast a double Lift anyway. Assault rifle is also here a good choice

Trust me, singularity gets plenty of use. As I said, all biotics save barrier maxed, so there are certainly enough points for it. And ass rifle is not a good choice, it kinda sucks. Pistol >>> ass rifle.

Either way he loses. Bottom line grunts only need immunity to rule, and casters need cooldowns, and vanguard has neither.

You do realise adrenaline rush resets all cooldowns right? I'll take instant reset of ALL cooldowns over shorter recharge speed anyday. Use all powers, ad rush, use 'em all again. If anything's still alive after 2 full rounds of all CD's, you're playing it wrong.

A soldier done properly is probably the strongest class, you're right. But to call vanguard bad is just ridiculous.
Seriously. Ridiculous.

OP wants to try something OTHER than soldier anyway, so that's out.
Adepts are strong, but you're kidding yourself if you think they're superior to a vanguard.

Modifié par DapperDan77, 02 avril 2012 - 09:51 .

[PsiFive]

Arkalezth wrote...

Soldiers and vanguards have it, but it doesn't work like on the other games, it just resets all other cooldowns. Useful for vanguards, no so much for soldiers (it may have some more use at early levels for the latter).

Oh, that. Yeah, I remember now. Used it a few times to get Assassination cooled down instantly to help take out a big enemy on foot, but other than that not much. I thought for a minute that maybe there was an ME2 style Adrenalin Rush that I'd completely missed in ME1.

[The Grey Ranger]

ncknck wrote...

Vanguard is actually a bad class. True, it has a lot of skills. But he still has the same number of points to spend as everyone else, and have you noticed all his extras require full investment. Marksman? 12 points. Adrenaline Rush? 12 points. Wanna use medium armor? 7 points. Shotgun? forget it. After the obligatory basics, you can max about 6 skills, which is less than he has skills. So if he goes after the extras, he ends up as an inferior soldier(no immunity) and inferior adept(less biotics). And if he goes after biotics, he ends up as even more inferior soldier(no immunity and no extras) and inferior adept(worse cooldown). Either way he loses. Bottom line grunts only need immunity to rule, and casters need cooldowns, and vanguard has neither.

Singularity as bonus, see no use, he doesnt have points for it and can cast a double Lift anyway. Assault rifle is also here a good choice.

I'll have to very strongly disagree with you here.  Many of the vanguard's skills work perfectly well left at advanced or even basic level.  Sure it helps to have a plan for your build, but that's true of most classes.

Saying adrenaline burst needs 12 points is not true.  It works just fine at 8 for advanced or even 5 to unlock medium armor.  Stop throw at 8 for advanced.  It will work on pretty much anything, even on insanity except four legger geth, and the occasional krogan battlemaster.  Shotgun is perfectly useable at 0 points invested, unless you really want to use carnage (overrated IMO).  Warp at advanced (for only 6 points I might add) is ample even for insanity.  By level 51 I can have everything that I consider needed for a very powerful vanguard, including 8 points in charm/intimidate.

Example build

Pistol 12
Shotgun 0
Assault training 5
Tactical Armor 7
Throw 8
Lift 12
Warp 6
Barrier 7
Vanguard(Shocktrooper) 12
Spectre 4
Singularity 12
Conversation skill 8

Since I can hit level 57 or 58 in one playthrough, That still leaves me 6 or 7 points unallocated to play around with,  If  I do a two or three playthrough build it leaves me even more.  This build is more than capable of handling ME1 on any difficulty without real problems. 

Also the thing about singularity as a bonus is that you can start putting points in it as soon as you get a level.  This means you can use it quite a bit earlier than lift, since lift requires 7 points invested into throw before it unlocks.  So you can start your crowd control goodness on Eden Prime rather than sometime near the end of the first citadel visit.  If I do things right I'd generally have singularity mastered before I get to the battlemaster fight on Therum.  It makes that fight ever so much easier, if the battlemaster is spiraling around in a master singularity.

I wouldn't automatically say that vanguard is better than adept, but I can make a pretty convincing argument either way.  I'll guarantee you that it's not an inferior adept though.

Modifié par The Grey Ranger, 02 avril 2012 - 11:33 .

[Arkalezth]

Agreed with The Grey Ranger, you don't need to max every skill out there. Carnage is bugged when used in conjunction with Barrier anyway, so another advantage for pistols there.

Re: the "worse soldier, worse adept" part, isn't that what a (ME1) vanguard is about? That's how a soldier/adept hybrid should be, having abilities from both sides but not being as good at them as a specialist (even then, Adrenaline Rush lets vanguards do things that adepts can't, as TGR said, both classes have their advantages).

Infiltrators are as good as soldiers at combat and as good as engineers at tech. I like infiltrators, but that's not how a hybrid class should look like.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 02 avril 2012 - 11:41 .

[ncknck]

The Grey Ranger
Quite risky to have Assault training at 5. Anyways im pretty sure most people will go full points there and in most other mentioned skills, dont you agree. And then people talk about vanguards they mean precisely that.

Point in case:

DapperDan77 wrote...
Marksman and ass training maxed obv., Nemesis maxed, all biotics maxed except barrier

counting that together would be a 110 points build...

This build is more than capable of handling ME1 on any difficulty without real problems.

Certainly, as do other builds, however "when" is the question, i mean getting singularity earlier is good, i agree, not perfect since leveling singularity means delaying leveling Lift no matter what, but still its good. but 12pistols+5training+7armor- ~4adept assault rifle= 20 points lagging behind an adept is a killing penalty no matter how to turn it around. Same problem with Garrus. Im pretty sure if you have played it, you left training at 3 and left armor for the last.

[The Grey Ranger]

It would delay it hardly at all. At the lower levels you are capped about how many points you can put into a skill.

Assault training at 5 is not a all risky. By the time you hit mid levels your biotic recharge speed will only be slightly lower than an adept of the same skill, not counting a use of adrenaline burst to get another cycle. Even then I can easily take it to 8 for advanced due to having points left over (note the able to reach 57 or 58 on a play through).

Vanguard does not lag behind adept in killing ability. Since they get a bonus to weapon damage that adepts lack.  (vanguard+assault training)

Modifié par The Grey Ranger, 03 avril 2012 - 01:31 .

[ncknck]

Indeed they have, but weapon damage bonuses got the shaft in this game. Stock weapons are too powerful. Not even counting Spectre gear. Aside from Pinnacle station i dont see where it would matter.

[DapperDan77]

ncknck wrote..
counting that together would be a 110 points build...

True, I'd forgotten that. Looked up my build on an old save on which I'd used the console to give myself 8 free points in charm, to avoid having to do 2 NG+. I basically recreated on PC my xbox character that had done 2 games and was about to do a 3rd.
Nevertheless, that doesn't negate my original point that Vanguards are nowhere near being "bad". Even on a first playthrough they're second only to soldiers for the purposes of min/max munchkinism on insanity, and are better (imo by a long shot) than adepts.
 From a purely subjective P.O.V., they may not be "better" than soldiers, but they (and adepts) are WAY more fun.
I still get giggles from lift > throw combos, even on my umpteenth run through
 Soldiers get much more fun in 2 and 3 imo, due to the shooting mechanics being so much better.