Aller au contenu

Photo

Why implementing the indoctrination hypothesis would be an insult to any rational person


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
364 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 179 messages
****oops. this may have gotten into the wrong forum. Mods, I'm sorry. Please move to the campaign and storyline forum if you can be bothered****

The title is deliberately provocative, but I stand by it. More to the point, it would an insult to everyone whose morality is based on reason more than emotion and knee-jerk outrage. I will proceed to explain why.

I am not, in principle, opposed to the idea that the Citadel sequence isn't real. The sticking point is the part about Destroy being the only option. This presumes that the other two options for the final choice are in some way objectively wrong. This is false. Here is why:

That an idea has been embraced by a villain does not make it bad or wrong. Even the game acknowledges this when Hackett says the Illusive Man "may be on to something" after Sanctuary. The idea to control the Reapers cannot, in any objective sense, be said to be bad or wrong. What makes TIM a villain is not the desire to control the Reapers, but the fact he steps over heaps of corpses and indoctrinates his own people to achieve that control. It is perfectly possible for a rational person with goodwill to say, for instance "Yes, controlling the Reapers is the best way to proceed, because this way we keep our options open" and then look at the heaps of corpses left in TIMs wake and continue "But not like this". I might add that we were never forced to play a good person anyway. Renegades can be real jerks. The only thing Shepard must do is stop the Reapers. That's what makes him a hero and a legend. Otherwise, we could always be power-hungry bastards not at all concerned with justice or mercy.

Also, seeking power is also not bad or wrong. Not even seeking absolute power. If you have power, you  will always be judged by how you came to acquire it and by you use it, not by the fact that you have it in the first place. At least, a rational person would make a judgment like that. In practice, it may be undesirable to let someone acquire absolute power because of the *potential* of abuse, but that's a practical matter, not a moral one. 

The same applies to the Synthesis. It may pose other ethical problems, but the fact that the idea of organic/synthetic hybrids is associated with Saren is a non-issue. It has absolutely no bearing on the validity and the ethics of the idea itself.

What this means is this: you can honestly believe, based on your own values, that either option for the final choice is a good thing, and there is no rational reason to single out one of them as "correct". Implementing the indoctrination hypothesis would rob players of the ability to make a choice based on their own values, and all on grounds of false reasoning. Basically: "if you think about it, you're wrong". That's insulting. And "If you're a power-hungry bastard, you cannot stop the Reapers"? So far power-hungry bastards could always win, too. Implementing this would destroy many Shepards built up from ME1. I am also seriously dumbfounded that the promoters of the indoctrination hypothesis would rob players of choice. Enshrine your favorite choice as correct and deny others theirs? That's hypocritical.

Now I'm interesting in what others have to say about this.

Summary:
I think implementing the indoctrination theory would be an an insult to rational thinkers because the indoctrination theorists' choice for the "correct" option is based on the false reasoning that association with major villains makes the other options recognizable as being trick answers. The merit of ideas is independent from the morality of those who support them. Anyone who contests this is not thinking rationally and prone to the (very common) delusion that evil is somehow contagious.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 mars 2012 - 06:30 .


#2
Shichamatsu

Shichamatsu
  • Members
  • 27 messages
I agree 100%. I read Air Gear, a manga, and the Antagonist in the series, Takeuchi Sora, is a pretty complex character. A lot of people dont like him. They say he's evil, but I find him to be more of a neutral, chaotic neutral, type character.

However the Indoctrination Theory doesnt say that the other two are wrong. It states that the two are tricks, played by Harbinger, to steer you into full fledged Indoctrination. Controlling the Reapers means that you accept their control. Synthesis means that you've allowed yourself to become a Husk, or something quite similar. But then again its only a Theory.

#3
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 179 messages

Shichamatsu wrote...
I agree 100%. I read Air Gear, a manga, and the Antagonist in the series, Takeuchi Sora, is a pretty complex character. A lot of people dont like him. They say he's evil, but I find him to be more of a neutral, chaotic neutral, type character.

However the Indoctrination Theory doesnt say that the other two are wrong. It states that the two are tricks, played by Harbinger, to steer you into full fledged Indoctrination. Controlling the Reapers means that you accept their control. Synthesis means that you've allowed yourself to become a Husk, or something quite similar. But then again its only a Theory.

In fact, it does say so. Because you lose in the other two choices. You cannot make a decision based on your own values. Also if you are Renegade associate red with Renegade and just follow the color coding, you will automatically make the correct decision. That makes no sense. 

Edit:
The question is: how are you supposed to know which is the trick? That's where the hypothesis fails, because it amounts to "You know it's a trick because of false reasoning". If you use rational arguments, you will not be able to make a decision without further evidence.

What would be interesting is this: the choice marked with red (the break-out one) is the choice Harbinger expects you to avoid based on past actions. Thus, everyone could be deceived here. Not sure how to make that work, though.
Also the idea that being a synthetic/organic hybrid is like "being a husk" is silly, based on pure association and devoid of all logic.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 mars 2012 - 10:26 .


#4
CroGamer002

CroGamer002
  • Members
  • 20 672 messages
Agreed OP.

#5
bo_7md

bo_7md
  • Members
  • 164 messages
I agree.

The whole theory contradicts itself. It all started out by saying he is being indoctrinated through out and the reapers are trying to make him make the wrong choice. But why give him a choice at all as soon as he walks towards the floating bridge to destroy the conduit drop it and kill him.

Then it changed into, everything after the reaper fries everyone with the beam is a dream. Then by this logic he couldn't have shot himself in the lower left side as argued in the first phase of the theory.

Honestly i could write for hours about the plot holes and problems in this theory, but what boggles me is that Bioware defended their vision as artistic integrity but i have not as of yet seen someone clearly saying NO indoctrination was intended here, this makes me wonder if they are willing to use it here.

#6
Wolfva2

Wolfva2
  • Members
  • 1 937 messages
I have to disagree because right from the start you essentially say, "You either believe MY opinion or you are to stupid to think." Such a start intentionally closes off any and all possible debate because you've already stated you will NOT entertain another point of view, based solely on YOUR personal preferences. However, different people have different preferences. We all like, and dislike, different things.

I'll use boiled sheeps head as an example. I'd say most of us would probably find a boiled sheeps head sitting on the dinner table, with it's blank, white eyes staring at is would be unappatising. But there are people who find it a delicious delicacy, Finns for instance. If you said, "No REASONABLE person could POSSIBLY like this!" then you are calling all those people unreasonable. And why should anyone ever actually listen to someone who is unreasonable?

If you want a debate, it helps to NOT automatically discredit all the people who may disagree with you by claiming their opinion does not matter. That's not a debate, that's preaching to the choir.

#7
Shichamatsu

Shichamatsu
  • Members
  • 27 messages

Ieldra2 wrote...

Shichamatsu wrote...
I agree 100%. I read Air Gear, a manga, and the Antagonist in the series, Takeuchi Sora, is a pretty complex character. A lot of people dont like him. They say he's evil, but I find him to be more of a neutral, chaotic neutral, type character.

However the Indoctrination Theory doesnt say that the other two are wrong. It states that the two are tricks, played by Harbinger, to steer you into full fledged Indoctrination. Controlling the Reapers means that you accept their control. Synthesis means that you've allowed yourself to become a Husk, or something quite similar. But then again its only a Theory.

In fact, it does say so. Because you lose in the other two choices. You cannot make a decision based on your own values. Also if you are Renegade associate red with Renegade and just follow the color coding, you will automatically make the correct decision. That makes no sense. 

Edit:
The question is: how are you supposed to know which is the trick? That's where the hypothesis fails, because it amounts to "You know it's a trick because of false reasoning". If you use rational arguments, you will not be able to make a decision without further evidence.

What would be interesting is this: the choice marked with red (the break-out one) is the choice Harbinger expects you to avoid based on past actions. Thus, everyone could be deceived here. Not sure how to make that work, though.
Also the idea that being a synthetic/organic hybrid is like "being a husk" is silly, based on pure association and devoid of all logic.


Does the fact that you lose mean that its morally right or wrong? I can admit that the coloring of the choice, red vs.blue, made it difficult to understand. Especially since, when considering the true outcome, none of the choices were right or wrong. I seee the world in nothing but shades of grey. However I dont exactly see HOW color coding it implied that the options were actually considered to be one, or the other, side of the scale morally. It is presumtious to assume that the player wouldnt choose Destroy because its Red. The existence of a general moral value, a system that people decide to follow together, is always present in society and in gaming. For example; Most people agree that murder, rape, and theivery and "evil". Remember its not only Shepard whose, theoretically, being indoctrinated. Its you, the player, as well. And even if you do roleplay your Shepard, as I do, you cant deny that your own moral values also take part in what decisions you make (unless they REALLY dont, lol.) Maybe by playing on what are considered social norms, attacking your values directly by making it red, they accomplished in getting you to do what they want. Remember Synthesis and taking control are also options that dont put others lives in danger. Destruction doesnt only effect the Reapers (sorry I have to be vague to avoid spoilers). The other two options dont offer up these dilemnas. Which is why, I believe, they were shown as "good" as opposed to the "evil" choice of Genocide and Suicide.

#8
Icinix

Icinix
  • Members
  • 8 188 messages
I actually believe the indoctrination theory as being all powerful - and that ALL ending choices lead to indoctrination.

The breath scene at the end would suggest otherwise - but I tend to view that as more of an easter egg...like the Halo ending on the hardest difficulty - but believe that in all endings - Shep wakes up - but is fully indoctrinated...

I have a few theories about how they could / would/ will get around that if additional ending content is released - but believe that ultimately your choice in there wouldn't matter anyway. Its a Reaper trick forcing you to choose one of three options, so you don't see whats really going on. Which is all choices lead to indoctrination.

#9
bo_7md

bo_7md
  • Members
  • 164 messages

Wolfva2 wrote...
I'll use boiled sheeps head as an example. I'd say most of us would probably find a boiled sheeps head sitting on the dinner table, with it's blank, white eyes staring .


Now i'm hungry :huh:

#10
Icinix

Icinix
  • Members
  • 8 188 messages

bo_7md wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...
I'll use boiled sheeps head as an example. I'd say most of us would probably find a boiled sheeps head sitting on the dinner table, with it's blank, white eyes staring .


Now i'm hungry :huh:


Grew up on sheeps brain and lambs tongue.

Feel like toast now.

#11
bo_7md

bo_7md
  • Members
  • 164 messages

Icinix wrote...

Grew up on sheeps brain and lambs tongue.

Feel like toast now.


ah the good old days...... :D  raw liver, eyes, brains and tongues that is a feast!

Edit: fixed the sentence.

Modifié par bo_7md, 22 mars 2012 - 11:03 .


#12
AkiKishi

AkiKishi
  • Members
  • 10 898 messages
I chose green because it was the sandwich with the least **** in it. There that should put you off food for a bit.

#13
Mr. Gogeta34

Mr. Gogeta34
  • Members
  • 4 033 messages
OP, your solution doesn't explain the many plot holes... Indoctrination Theory does.

#14
SauliusS

SauliusS
  • Members
  • 1 messages
All the three choices were not real - it was just a dream, a way to trick Shepard into choosing what he would not choose in reality, and that way be indoctrinated. That's what I think :)

#15
bo_7md

bo_7md
  • Members
  • 164 messages

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

OP, your solution doesn't explain the many plot holes... Indoctrination Theory does.


That is like saying I plugged the leaking roof with sponges. :? They both have holes the size.

#16
Mr. Gogeta34

Mr. Gogeta34
  • Members
  • 4 033 messages

bo_7md wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

OP, your solution doesn't explain the many plot holes... Indoctrination Theory does.


That is like saying I plugged the leaking roof with sponges. :? They both have holes the size.


Actually it's like saying the leaky roof is not really your roof... the real roof is over there.

#17
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 179 messages

Does the fact that you lose mean that its morally right or wrong?

No of course not, but if all you have to determine which choice is valid is your own reasoning, without additional external evidence, then your choice will be made based on your own values. Being told two of them are wrong then amounts to the game telling you your values are wrong.

If there is a "correct" choice, there must be direct external evidence which one it is. To use the association with villains is false reasoning.

The existence of a general moral value, a system that people decide to follow together, is always present in society and in gaming. For example; Most people agree that murder, rape, and theivery and "evil". Remember its not only Shepard whose, theoretically, being indoctrinated. Its you, the player, as well. And even if you do roleplay your Shepard, as I do, you cant deny that your own moral values also take part in what decisions you make (unless they REALLY dont, lol.) Maybe by playing on what are considered social norms, attacking your values directly by making it red, they accomplished in getting you to do what they want. Remember Synthesis and taking control are also options that dont put others lives in danger. Destruction doesnt only effect the Reapers (sorry I have to be vague to avoid spoilers). The other two options dont offer up these dilemnas. Which is why, I believe, they were shown as "good" as opposed to the "evil" choice of Genocide and Suicide.


First, we were, so far, never forced to agree with a certain value system in the ME games. We can sabotage the genophage cure and defend that choice, we can blithely ignore basic concepts of justice throughout three games if we want and get away with it. To force a moral system on Shepard now would destroy many Shepards as characters. As for the "blue" choices, if I can find no rational reason to avoid them then why should I? The reasons given by the promoters of the hypothesis are based on false reasoning.

#18
bo_7md

bo_7md
  • Members
  • 164 messages

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

bo_7md wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

OP, your solution doesn't explain the many plot holes... Indoctrination Theory does.


That is like saying I plugged the leaking roof with sponges. :? They both have holes the size.


Actually it's like saying the leaky roof is not really your roof... the real roof is over there.


You say pointing towards the empty space.

#19
Icinix

Icinix
  • Members
  • 8 188 messages

bo_7md wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

bo_7md wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

OP, your solution doesn't explain the many plot holes... Indoctrination Theory does.


That is like saying I plugged the leaking roof with sponges. :? They both have holes the size.


Actually it's like saying the leaky roof is not really your roof... the real roof is over there.


You say pointing towards the empty space.


He's indoctrinated.

#20
Mr. Gogeta34

Mr. Gogeta34
  • Members
  • 4 033 messages

bo_7md wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

bo_7md wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

OP, your solution doesn't explain the many plot holes... Indoctrination Theory does.


That is like saying I plugged the leaking roof with sponges. :? They both have holes the size.


Actually it's like saying the leaky roof is not really your roof... the real roof is over there.


You say pointing towards the empty space.


No, toward the DLC.  But Bioware would have to do it.


Icinix wrote...
He's indoctrinated.

 You're indoctrinated.Image IPB

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 mars 2012 - 11:16 .


#21
He4vyMet4l

He4vyMet4l
  • Members
  • 85 messages
You still make the decision you think is right. If Harbinger tricks you into it, it doesn't mean that the decision is false and that there is only one choice.

You are basing this solely on the moral aspet of right or wrong. There is also the logical aspect to your decision.

So I don't agree, especially if you don't really know how BW will handle it (if they intend to).

#22
bo_7md

bo_7md
  • Members
  • 164 messages

Icinix wrote...

bo_7md wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

bo_7md wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

OP, your solution doesn't explain the many plot holes... Indoctrination Theory does.


That is like saying I plugged the leaking roof with sponges. :? They both have holes the size.


Actually it's like saying the leaky roof is not really your roof... the real roof is over there.


You say pointing towards the empty space.


He's indoctrinated.


Actually Indoctrination makes you see things that aren't there. It doesn't make you think it is not there. Now read the above quotes again. :whistle:

#23
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 179 messages

Icinix wrote...
I actually believe the indoctrination theory as being all powerful - and that ALL ending choices lead to indoctrination.

The breath scene at the end would suggest otherwise - but I tend to view that as more of an easter egg...like the Halo ending on the hardest difficulty - but believe that in all endings - Shep wakes up - but is fully indoctrinated...

I have a few theories about how they could / would/ will get around that if additional ending content is released - but believe that ultimately your choice in there wouldn't matter anyway. Its a Reaper trick forcing you to choose one of three options, so you don't see whats really going on. Which is all choices lead to indoctrination.

While this version isn't insulting, and would at least be fair among the choices, it would be unfair to anyone who likes any of them. Implementing that would basically mean telling anyone who liked the final choice (disregard the plot holes for now) "LOLOL you lose".

I want a fourth choice based on rejecting the whole reasoning as much as anyone, but I would also like the current options to mean something beyond "you lose". I would want to be able to win with either of them.

#24
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 179 messages

He4vyMet4l wrote...
You still make the decision you think is right. If Harbinger tricks you into it, it doesn't mean that the decision is false and that there is only one choice.

If two of the choices mean you get indoctrinated while one avoids it, then yes, that is tantamount to saying two of them are wrong. Because well, if I choose one of the blue options that doesn't mean I accept the Reapers' reasoning. Yet that is what the promoters of the hypothesis are saying. Most of them anyway.

You are basing this solely on the moral aspet of right or wrong. There is also the logical aspect to your decision.

There is no logic to the assumption that two choices end in indoctrination while one doesn't. That's exactly what this is about.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 mars 2012 - 11:22 .


#25
bo_7md

bo_7md
  • Members
  • 164 messages

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

No, toward the DLC.  But Bioware would have to do it.


The Indoc Theory argues that all this is a dream, so the reapers would be alive and kicking when/if he comes to. This would suggest that the DLC is post ending, Now what C.H said is the DLCs will be during ME3 not after it simply rejects this theory.

The "New Ending DLC" was announced as a clarification and answers not a complete re-write, but you never know with Bioware. Lets wait and see :alien:

Modifié par bo_7md, 22 mars 2012 - 11:29 .