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Why implementing the indoctrination hypothesis would be an insult to any rational person


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#251
Comsky159

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The problem with this, is that across 100 hours of gameplay, Shepard never even gets a chance to even consider the implications of an alternate approach to ending the war, until quite literally the final minute. A horribly jarring backflip on Shepard's part, no matter how you look at it. Central to the game was the original premise of destroying the reapers; now suddenly you can control them or , even more unwonted, become like them.

It's a joke. This is an inversion of the mass effect's central and prior-to indefatigable moral universe and hence a huge dramatic departure from all we have been led to believe. Indoctrination actually holds more credence for the discerning storyteller than the ending we have, because at least it upholds the ethical core around which all events, emotions and character arcs revolve.

As the final credits began to roll, I felt like Winston after his conversion in 1984. The moral truisms of the game world had been unhinged.

So I disagree, and hope to God this pathetic excuse for an ending is rectified.

Modifié par Comsky159, 23 mars 2012 - 07:02 .


#252
J.C. Blade

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Comsky159 wrote...

The problem with this, is that across 100 hours of gameplay, Shepard never even gets a chance to even consider the implications of an alternate approach to ending the war, until quite literally the final minute. A horribly jarring backflip on Shepard's part, no matter how you look at it. Central to the game was the original premise of destroying the reapers; now suddenly you can control them or , even more unwonted, become like them.


It's not a backflip of Shepard's character, it's a backflip of information influx. We were never given into consideration that something else was or would be possible other than destruction. For my part, and that of my Shepard, the possiblity of studying or acquiring the Reaper technology, however faint, was present in all my playthroughs. The Control ending gave me exactly what I wanted for my run with Shepard to happen.

Modifié par J.C. Blade, 23 mars 2012 - 07:10 .


#253
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I am 100% fine with indoctrination theory, with elaboration and an actual epilogue chapter after. It explains nearly everything for me. It only comes down to, when does Shepard start down the slide?:
-ME1
-ME2
-Arrival
-ME3
-just at the very end

Personally, I'm cool with the idea that while you have 'free will' in 99% of the series, the Paragon and Renegade you choose is NOT simply roleplaying, but rather Shepard embracing either side of the Reaper power (Blue = Citadel, relays, maybe Crucible?. Red = Reapers, husk, reaping). It makes you a greater tool as you are exposed more to Reaper technology, yet also opens up the door to escaping their influence in the end.

Just because I like the idea of the Crucible being a galactic test by the Reapers, and gathering the entire galaxy's forces to create and protect it is a giant trap in a larger scale than the Citadel itself, and Shepard is the real Catalyst. CitadelCrucibleCatalyst.

#254
bo_7md

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Comsky159 wrote...

The problem with this, is that across 100 hours of gameplay, Shepard never even gets a chance to even consider the implications of an alternate approach to ending the war, until quite literally the final minute. A horribly jarring backflip on Shepard's part, no matter how you look at it. Central to the game was the original premise of destroying the reapers; now suddenly you can control them or , even more unwonted, become like them.

It's a joke. This is an inversion of the mass effect's central and prior-to indefatigable moral universe and hence a huge dramatic departure from all we have been led to believe. Indoctrination actually holds more credence for the discerning storyteller than the ending we have, because at least it upholds the ethical core around which all events, emotions and character arcs revolve.

As the final credits began to roll, I felt like Winston after his conversion in 1984. The moral truisms of the game world had been unhinged.

So I disagree, and hope to God this pathetic excuse for an ending is rectified.


Shepard is a Soldier like Javik he gathers resources and asks questions to find possibilities. Seeing as the current age tech level isn't as advanced as protheans no one, not even Mordin, could come up with an alternate solution how do you expect shepard to find one ?

He also has shown mercy and would lean towards common solutions (if Paragon) even if slightly evil for the common good e.g the corp dealing with the Thorian ME1. So when given the option he might opt towards the one where no one gets hurt.

The I.T is not an ending, it is just a dream scene so basically reality ended and you have no idea what happened in real life. To me it is as if the game has ended after attacking cerberus and credits roll, are you really saying no ending is better than an unclear ending ?

#255
nikola8

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I find the idea that "the Indoctrination Theory explains everything" to be amusing. The problem with it is that it would introduce a brand new plot hole- namely that of the nature of indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination, as described in the games and in the books, is a subtle control that "whispers" and "claws" at the mind of the indoctrinated. NEVER once in established ME lore has indoctrination caused hallucinations. The Indoctrination Theory, therefore, in and of itself, would be a plot hole that cannot be explained.

#256
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J.C. Blade wrote...

Comsky159 wrote...

The problem with this, is that across 100 hours of gameplay, Shepard never even gets a chance to even consider the implications of an alternate approach to ending the war, until quite literally the final minute. A horribly jarring backflip on Shepard's part, no matter how you look at it. Central to the game was the original premise of destroying the reapers; now suddenly you can control them or , even more unwonted, become like them.


It's not a backflip of Shepard's character, it's a backflip of information influx. We were never given into consideration that something else was or would be possible other than destruction. For my part, and that of my Shepard, the possiblity of studying or acquiring the Reaper technology, however faint, was present in all my playthroughs. The Control ending gave me exactly what I wanted for my run with Shepard to happen.


And every single example of interacting with Reaper tech, aside from just their weapons, or just their AI code, results in disaster. Catalyst seems to be deliberately misleading with its words, hinting that YOU are not under their control - but um, what if any organic that tries to control the Reapers, succumbs to their power regardless? It certainly seems that way.

#257
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nikola8 wrote...

I find the idea that "the Indoctrination Theory explains everything" to be amusing. The problem with it is that it would introduce a brand new plot hole- namely that of the nature of indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination, as described in the games and in the books, is a subtle control that "whispers" and "claws" at the mind of the indoctrinated. NEVER once in established ME lore has indoctrination caused hallucinations. The Indoctrination Theory, therefore, in and of itself, would be a plot hole that cannot be explained.


Not really. Shepard isn't a compete organic, and it is told over and over that he's not quite normal in his biological structure. It could mean that the only way that indoctrination can manifest strongly in him, is when his mind is at rest.

The ME3 codex exactly says: "hallucinations of ghostly presences"

#258
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I posted the following on Forbes, to good reception:


The theory does not assume Shepard IS indoctrinated. The
process takes sometimes a long period of time (if the rate of
indoctrination is slow enough, sometimes months), and it only seems to
have long term effects if the organic actually submits to them. Saren
started off as an indoctrinated tool (given enough control over himself
to do his job and continue to research the Reapers), but his process was
also over months and he had opportunity to reject it… until he
basically stationed himself in an actual Reaper.
Basically, there are different ‘stages’ to keep into account:

1)Beginnings. Some visions, whispers, and maybe a little more foggy mind, more sense of depression etc.

Subject = redeemable, but get him away from anything Reaper related!

Shepard = according to theory, he’s in this stage since at least
Arrival. He is, however, perfectly capable despite that, and his choices
are still 100% against the Reapers. Reminds me of Frodo, who had dark
moods and despair even after Sauron was defeated.
2)Illusion = The illusions get more vivid, to the point of
misdirecting your actions and beginning to change your philosophy.
Greyson in the novels reaches this point, but is only tipped over the
edge by Cerberus giving him Red Sand to compromise his mind. Saren was
kept around this stage for quite a while before ME1, and it seems in
ME3, TIM also heads into this stage. Benezia also likely held onto here
for a while, until she became overwhelmed by being on an actual Reaper.

Subject = mostly irredeemable, with exceptions. The subject may be still
useful and might fight against the Reapers, but the ‘dark tendrils’
very strongly influence the mind. The Rachni queen in ME3 (if you saved
the ME1 one) may also be at this stage, but more capable at rejecting it
than a human would.

Shepard = He’s at this stage by the time he gets to Earth in the end.
Getting hit by the blast only tips him over, into his own ‘crucible’ to
decide whether he will fight off the indoctrination, or fall into it.
Thessia, and the defeat there, seems to be the tipping point into this
stage, and direct Reaper presence (hello Earth) is all that’s needed to
push him over.
Conversion = The character now believes in something else, just
anything BUT destroying the Reapers. The more paragon minded might
believe that working with the Reapers or alongside them, is realistic.
The more Renegade minded might believe that controlling them or at least
using their technology in dangerous ways, is realistic. Overall, the
slide into become a slave is now clear to the more lucid minded. Saren
is this throughout ME1, until his near total conversion at the Citadel.
Benezia is as well, but she (with her biotic-magic-meditation-stuff) was
able to lock out a part of her mind to the indoctrination. TIM is
likely strongly into this stage in ME3, and his implants only tip him
over strongly.

Subject = irredeemable, seemingly. People like Shepard CAN break through
to them though, but only for a short period of time. The subject will
likely opt for suicide at this point, if anything. Samara’s daughter
also opted for setting off the bomb, instead of going with the others,
because she knew she was lost.

Shepard = only at this stage if Synthesis or Control are chosen. You’ve
already ‘lost’ then. I’d love if alternate endings happen with these,
but they would be ‘bad’ endings (at least resulting in Shepard’s death,
maybe suicide if your squadmates have strong relationships with you and
can talk you down).
Thrall = Now fully in the Reaper’s grasp, the individual is so
different from his normal self, that anyone can see it from a mile away.
This is the eventual result of the Reaper’s indoctrination by itself,
and the Reapers tend to hold back on it for their more useful sleeper
agents. Regular guys though? They’re screwed, and left to worshipping
the Reapers with gibberish.

Subject = shoot him, he’s lost. Maybe, in better conditions, could be
put into a psych ward. He’s not useful to you, nor the Reapers (unless
they are huskified), except as crazy suicide bombers or something.

Shepard = Not here at all! The Reapers likely don’t even want him to
become this, or even a Saren. They’d likely want him to be secretly
under their thumb, so he can lead the entire galaxy to their doom.
Husk = by which, I mean a husk of the former self. This can mean
literal husks (aka total puppets), or organic slaves (like the
Collectors). In any case, there is no free will left, and the subject
exists only for the Reaper’s more ‘manpower’ required goals, like
infantry, or large scale projects like construction.


Basically, the BIG point on whether someone is ‘being
indoctrinated’ and actually ‘is indoctrinated’, is the space between
Illusion and Conversion. A surivivor of Illusion may just end up with
long-term PTSD, but once into Conversion, you’re already dead inside.

~~~~~

And there can still be 3 endings.
Control = the first major stage of indoctrination in strong-willed
individuals, convincing them that they can actually control the Reapers.
Illusive Man is currently in that stage (even if you discount the TIM
you meet in the supposed ‘dream’), but even Saren initially believed
that by boarding the Reaper and studying it (Virmire), he’d be able to
learn how to control them. This transitioned into..
Synthesis = the last major stage of indoctrination in strong-willed
individuals, as it embodies co-operation and the start of the idea of
subserviance towards the Reapers. It’s fairly bright at first (we’re all
going to be together, organics and synthetics!), but turns into a hope
that you’ll be spared from Reaping if you accept synthesis, and then
eventually into an outright worship of the Reapers. Saren lasted until
this stage, but if it went any further, he would have been an outright
slave like Amanda Kenson. Kenson started by wanting to destroy the
Reapers, but transitioned towards worship and then becoming a slave, as
her mind never throught of controlling of co-existing with them, but
stronger-willed individuals may go through a slower process.
Destroy = the goal all along. Every points to Shepard and Anderson
showing the Reapers no way into their minds. Shepard rejects Saren’s
Synthesis, and TIM’s decline into Control philosophy.
And each can still have their own endings.. its just that 2/3 would
lead towards bad endings. And to by honest, plenty of people wanted bad
endings, just as much as they wanted to be able to access the ‘happy
happy joy joy’ types of endings.

#259
J.C. Blade

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SwobyJ wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...

It's not a backflip of Shepard's character, it's a backflip of information influx. We were never given into consideration that something else was or would be possible other than destruction. For my part, and that of my Shepard, the possiblity of studying or acquiring the Reaper technology, however faint, was present in all my playthroughs. The Control ending gave me exactly what I wanted for my run with Shepard to happen.


And every single example of interacting with Reaper tech, aside from just their weapons, or just their AI code, results in disaster. Catalyst seems to be deliberately misleading with its words, hinting that YOU are not under their control - but um, what if any organic that tries to control the Reapers, succumbs to their power regardless? It certainly seems that way.


The Geth would like to have a word with you. Didn't they upgrade themselves with Reaper code to become true AIs in the end, and still were willing to make peace with the quarians?

Besides, the premise of ME1as well as ME2 was about this one human who was strong-willed enough to survive the contact with prothean beacon, three of those in fact. One human who accomplished the impossible in ME1, can perform the Suicide mission with perfect survival rate - so far the game has been shoving me in the face with this clear fact that Shepard can do the impossible. And that if anyone were able to control the Reapers, it would be her/him.

EDIT: Also, not everyone did the Arrival DLC. If the IT was to be correct then Arrival should have been mandatory for prolonged exposure to Reaper artifact and not a DLC a player can completely ignore.

Modifié par J.C. Blade, 23 mars 2012 - 07:28 .


#260
Dave of Canada

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SwobyJ wrote...

And every single example of interacting with Reaper tech, aside from just their weapons, or just their AI code, results in disaster.


Guess you're right if you ignore the Conduit, Collector Base, Sanctuary and more.

#261
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J.C. Blade wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...

It's not a backflip of Shepard's character, it's a backflip of information influx. We were never given into consideration that something else was or would be possible other than destruction. For my part, and that of my Shepard, the possiblity of studying or acquiring the Reaper technology, however faint, was present in all my playthroughs. The Control ending gave me exactly what I wanted for my run with Shepard to happen.


And every single example of interacting with Reaper tech, aside from just their weapons, or just their AI code, results in disaster. Catalyst seems to be deliberately misleading with its words, hinting that YOU are not under their control - but um, what if any organic that tries to control the Reapers, succumbs to their power regardless? It certainly seems that way.


The Geth would like to have a word with you. Didn't they upgrade themselves with Reaper code to become true AIs in the end, and still were willing to make peace with the quarians?

Besides, the premise of ME1as well as ME2 was about this one human who was strong-willed enough to survive the contact with prothean beacon, three of those in fact. One human who accomplished the impossible in ME1, can perform the Suicide mission with perfect survival rate - so far the game has been shoving me in the face with this clear fact that Shepard can do the impossible. And that if anyone were able to control the Reapers, it would be her/him.

EDIT: Also, not everyone did the Arrival DLC. If the IT was to be correct then Arrival should have been mandatory for prolonged exposure to Reaper artifact and not a DLC a player can completely ignore.


I just said AI code, which meant Reaper code :)

When you deal with the Reapers themselves, its a whole different story. There is tech IN a Reaper to use, but they enforce...over...and..over... that organics are no where NEAR the point where they can control the Reapers without it dramatically backfiring.

And Arrival is just for clarification. Shepard has had more exposure to Reaper tech beside that long term exposure is still concievable. Arrival only strongly pushes forward existing points (imo):
-the Reapers are coming
-sacrifices must be made
-Reaper exposure
-the galaxy isn't ready for it, and is barely holding the Reapers back

These can still be communicated otherwise, but Arrival is great as a non-essential 'bridge'.

#262
nikola8

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SwobyJ wrote...

nikola8 wrote...

I find the idea that "the Indoctrination Theory explains everything" to be amusing. The problem with it is that it would introduce a brand new plot hole- namely that of the nature of indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination, as described in the games and in the books, is a subtle control that "whispers" and "claws" at the mind of the indoctrinated. NEVER once in established ME lore has indoctrination caused hallucinations. The Indoctrination Theory, therefore, in and of itself, would be a plot hole that cannot be explained.


Not really. Shepard isn't a compete organic, and it is told over and over that he's not quite normal in his biological structure. It could mean that the only way that indoctrination can manifest strongly in him, is when his mind is at rest.

The ME3 codex exactly says: "hallucinations of ghostly presences"


Did anyone in the end look "ghostly"?  I didn't think so.

#263
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Dave of Canada wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

And every single example of interacting with Reaper tech, aside from just their weapons, or just their AI code, results in disaster.


Guess you're right if you ignore the Conduit, Collector Base, Sanctuary and more.


Ah, that's actually a good point! ;)

I would personally love if Indoctrination Theory was correct, as that would mean we (as in Shepard) haven't even SEEN the real TIM... at all... yet. In all of Mass Effect.

This means that TIM could even be outright correct. He could have minor Reaper exposure in him, but he takes the steps (aside from the weirdness of having a human-Reaper remains in his base) to isolate himself from it doing damage. Studying Sancturary can give him the tools to push back Reaper influence and their control over husks. AND, he could also have a hidden plan which is not so strange and weird as we're shown in the current ending - still involving the Crucible, but... not exactly as 2D as we're currently shown.

#264
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nikola8 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

nikola8 wrote...

I find the idea that "the Indoctrination Theory explains everything" to be amusing. The problem with it is that it would introduce a brand new plot hole- namely that of the nature of indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination, as described in the games and in the books, is a subtle control that "whispers" and "claws" at the mind of the indoctrinated. NEVER once in established ME lore has indoctrination caused hallucinations. The Indoctrination Theory, therefore, in and of itself, would be a plot hole that cannot be explained.


Not really. Shepard isn't a compete organic, and it is told over and over that he's not quite normal in his biological structure. It could mean that the only way that indoctrination can manifest strongly in him, is when his mind is at rest.

The ME3 codex exactly says: "hallucinations of ghostly presences"


Did anyone in the end look "ghostly"?  I didn't think so.


His dreams were absolutely full of literally dark ghost shadows.

Now if you mean the boy, Maurader Shields, TIM, and Anderson, all but the boy can be explained as dream logic. He's not just dreaming ghostly presences - he's dreaming symbolic figures of his internal struggle. (and no, it's not that 'deep')

The boy though? No friggin idea. We see indoctrination do strange things, like meshing memories together with other people (how??), or make people jump at unknown things.

#265
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I'm sorry, but there is just something SO off about this. It's not even 'Shepard feels guilty and has the weight of the galaxy on his/her shoulders'. Something feels sinister - both overtly and symbolically.



#266
Ninja Mage

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If they do the "it was an indoctrination dream!" I will laugh so hard

#267
J.C. Blade

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SwobyJ wrote...

I just said AI code, which meant Reaper code :)

When you deal with the Reapers themselves, its a whole different story. There is tech IN a Reaper to use, but they enforce...over...and..over... that organics are no where NEAR the point where they can control the Reapers without it dramatically backfiring.

And Arrival is just for clarification. Shepard has had more exposure to Reaper tech beside that long term exposure is still concievable. Arrival only strongly pushes forward existing points (imo):
-the Reapers are coming
-sacrifices must be made
-Reaper exposure
-the galaxy isn't ready for it, and is barely holding the Reapers back

These can still be communicated otherwise, but Arrival is great as a non-essential 'bridge'.


All we know is that reapr tech had backfired constantly in the past. We don't know what or when the organics will make that "EUREKA" moment with this technology to make it harmless and usefull. Shepard could be that first moment. And I'd sooner believe that the organics have taken a step forward than game breaking Shepard-the-strong-willed in the last 10 minutes without giving the player any concrete hint of what's going on.

Just asking, when exactly did Shepard have more exposure to Reaper tech? Aside form the derelict reaper.

#268
kalle90

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SwobyJ wrote...
And there can still be 3 endings.

And each can still have their own endings.. its just that 2/3 would
lead towards bad endings. And to by honest, plenty of people wanted bad
endings, just as much as they wanted to be able to access the ‘happy
happy joy joy’ types of endings.


I'd say that is still too linear way to go. IMO you should be able to "lose" even if you chose destroying (your troops were too small to fight, inner conflicts tear your troops, Shepard is still stopped or convinced at the last minute or such) and "win" if you're indoctrinated (sacrificial to save everyone, help reapers win because you believe the galactic races are already doomed so they must be "preserved", in optimal case Reapers are destroyed and Shepard barely avoids it)

#269
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kalle90 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...
And there can still be 3 endings.

And each can still have their own endings.. its just that 2/3 would
lead towards bad endings. And to by honest, plenty of people wanted bad
endings, just as much as they wanted to be able to access the ‘happy
happy joy joy’ types of endings.


I'd say that is still too linear way to go. IMO you should be able to "lose" even if you chose destroying (your troops were too small to fight, inner conflicts tear your troops, Shepard is still stopped or convinced at the last minute or such) and "win" if you're indoctrinated (sacrificial to save everyone, help reapers win because you believe the galactic races are already doomed so they must be "preserved", in optimal case Reapers are destroyed and Shepard barely avoids it)


Oh I completely agree. Don't take my support for the Theory as me saying "That's all there is to it!". There would have to be quite a lot to add on after, and variables to keep into account.

Almost enough to justify and Awakening style expansion.... :whistle:

#270
bo_7md

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SwobyJ wrote...

I'm sorry, but there is just something SO off about this. It's not even 'Shepard feels guilty and has the weight of the galaxy on his/her shoulders'. Something feels sinister - both overtly and symbolically.


These dreams can't be the Indoc in effect no matter what you pick as your side!

Think about it if this was indoc then why would he show himself burning ?
So it can only be his inner mind resisting, but if we say that then where is the effect of the indoc ? Besides the first time he saw the child there are none.

Wouldn't he be seeing more of this child, or would you argue that he resisted all this time then just fell into it ?
and if the reapers really just decided to Indoc him wouldn't they have collected his body to a safer place where he can be put under further pressure ?

#271
Yeti1069

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There's a difference, though, between studying Reaper tech, and controlling the Reapers. Other than TIM's assertion to this effect in ME3, when he is clearly indoctrinated, there is no hint that this is possible. Saren never mentions it. Shepard never does. Nor does Anderson. Nor any of the galactic leaders you speak to in ME3. TIM doesn't mention it in ME2 when his indoctrination seems to still be in question (it's beginning stages perhaps...maybe before he took the partial Reaper from the Collector ship). The Geth don't ever suggest it.

The only indication that it's even possible comes from someone who is indoctrinated. Just like the only claim that organics can surrender to the Reapers and be allowed to live as their slaves comes from the indoctrinated Saren.

I'd be very much in favor of at least 3 endings being fleshed out from where we sit now, with players choosing either Synthesis or Control becoming indoctrinated, perhaps with one leading to Shepard dying (either being killed while trying to sabotage the mission or committing suicide), and one leading to failure of the battle at Earth due to Shepard successfully sabotaging the mission somehow. Players who choose to Destroy the Reapers regain control of their senses and are able to try to finish their objective. Ideally, this ending path would then have a few divergent points as well, with the possibilities of utter failure (Reapers win), minor success (Reapers repelled, but not necessarily for all time, Earth destroyed, Shepard dies), major success (Reapers destroyed, threat is forever ended, Earth saved, Shepard dies), WIN (Reapers destroyed, Earth saved, Shepard lives).

As the ending stands now, if it is Indoctrination, it's a rather lackluster way to end the series, because it is no ending at all, while if the events should be viewed as literal, it's garbage, making little sense, and gutting the entire Mass Effect universe, which would make having more games set in this fiction rather difficult--no Mass Relays, little to no contact with other races, no synthetics at all, apparently no spaceships...

#272
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J.C. Blade wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I just said AI code, which meant Reaper code :)

When you deal with the Reapers themselves, its a whole different story. There is tech IN a Reaper to use, but they enforce...over...and..over... that organics are no where NEAR the point where they can control the Reapers without it dramatically backfiring.

And Arrival is just for clarification. Shepard has had more exposure to Reaper tech beside that long term exposure is still concievable. Arrival only strongly pushes forward existing points (imo):
-the Reapers are coming
-sacrifices must be made
-Reaper exposure
-the galaxy isn't ready for it, and is barely holding the Reapers back

These can still be communicated otherwise, but Arrival is great as a non-essential 'bridge'.


All we know is that reapr tech had backfired constantly in the past. We don't know what or when the organics will make that "EUREKA" moment with this technology to make it harmless and usefull. Shepard could be that first moment. And I'd sooner believe that the organics have taken a step forward than game breaking Shepard-the-strong-willed in the last 10 minutes without giving the player any concrete hint of what's going on.

Just asking, when exactly did Shepard have more exposure to Reaper tech? Aside form the derelict reaper.


Just the Reaper, for all I know. Other than that, it might have to be an as-yet unknown information about how the Laz Project affected him.

This is from a post from someone 5 MONTHS ago:

"I'd have thought it was cumulative too really and as for Object Rho, I
don't think you'd necessarily have to be in the same room as it for it
to have an effect. I mean, all of Kenson's crew were indoctrinated and
surely they'd need some clearance to even get in that room - not
everyone will have been special enough.

I don't really think it'd
be a kick in the teeth for BioWare to turn around and say "Oh yeah,
Shepard's finally hearing some little Reaper whispers in his/her head."
It's a good twist!
I'm pretty sure out of all the people who enjoy the series, someone's guessed correctly by now as to what's up with Shepard.

Anywho. Shepard has Reaper tech inside of 'em don't they? Or am I making this up..?
Maybe
that's just holding off the indoctrination for now and Shepard will
have a Saren (or Anders/Justice) moment later on and wrestle with inner
demons."

He's tough, and can resist indoctrination far more than other organics, but I do believe that after so much exposure over time, it will have a MINIMUM of an effect on him (nothing like Saren though...until the end).

#273
Guest_SwobyJ_*

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bo_7md wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I'm sorry, but there is just something SO off about this. It's not even 'Shepard feels guilty and has the weight of the galaxy on his/her shoulders'. Something feels sinister - both overtly and symbolically.


These dreams can't be the Indoc in effect no matter what you pick as your side!

Think about it if this was indoc then why would he show himself burning ?
So it can only be his inner mind resisting, but if we say that then where is the effect of the indoc ? Besides the first time he saw the child there are none.

Wouldn't he be seeing more of this child, or would you argue that he resisted all this time then just fell into it ?
and if the reapers really just decided to Indoc him wouldn't they have collected his body to a safer place where he can be put under further pressure ?




Boy running = You can't save everyone
Voices of the dead = You can't save your friends
Burning Shepard = You can't save yourself

It's chipping away at his will. Of course, Shepard is awesome Shepard, and marches on, but since Thessia, things pile onto him.

Remember that indoctrination is *not* perceptable to the individual until it's too late (and only when directly confronted with the fact, and even then...). YOU are Shepard. They're not going to be overt with it, at all.

If Shepard is meant to be the true Catalyst, he'll need to be on Earth. Not going deep into that though.

#274
kalle90

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SwobyJ wrote...
Almost enough to justify and Awakening style expansion.... :whistle:


I'd settle for Witchhunt length

Oh, and about the subject. I found it somewhat insulting that I had avoided many, many lasers only to be forced to get (almost) hit by one which injures bad. That my armor is vaporized, that I get infinite bullets and a gun I wasn't carrying as well as lose my powers. That Anderson somehow passed me and claimed he came from different entrance yet our entire force was decimated...

Everything that happens after that zing is insult to our rationality, the style of game changes completely. Even if we assume the shrubs, slowdown and such are because of the damage Shepard took.

#275
orbit991

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This "theory" is like any other conspiracy theory made for the gullible who don't think for themselves.
First you make some theory and then pick and choose events that fit, while ignoring the glaring holes in logic. This one in particular was made on plot holes, bugs and sometimes just plain bad design
The glaring hole here is why unlike every indoctrinated being who turns to support and admire reapers, you go on fighting them, never mind that they keep on trying to kill you. You would think they would just send you a nice message, hey Shep come up to the ship and we can melt you into basic components and you would say, hey thanks, sounds good. And for them to give you an option to kill them, well, heh, be serious.