364 réponses à ce sujet

[kalle90]

xsdob wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

OP, your solution doesn't explain the many plot holes... Indoctrination Theory does.

Indoctrination lost all of it's validity when it's subscribers began using visual effects and game mechanics as proof. They forgot that times slows down when your injured, or that you get lines around the creen when your low on health. Also, they dismiss the fact that the illusive man can kill himself, that the VI on thessia or ilos nor javik detect indoctrinations prescense, or that fast indoctrination leds to massive brain damage, so even if shepard did wake up after picking destroy, he would have been reduced to a vegatable as part of the indoctrination process.

Also, there is no such thing as "attempted indoctrination". It stays at the level the reapers set it at, so if they push you to the point that your hearing voices and seeing hallucinations than your already too far gone to resist them, it never goes down form that level, meaning you would have been detected as indoctrinated on thessia by the VI.

Everywhere I've seen, people who say the indoctrination theory is real try to say that he only got indoctrinated at the beam AND that he was always indoctrinated from the start of ME1, you have to pick one or the other. Indoctrination works by how close the reapers are to their indoctrinated followers, Rana was indoctrinated in ME1, when the reapers where in the galaxy the indoctrination process increased instantly, same thing with the hanar diplomat, so if the reapers operated this way, than shepard should have already fallen to them back on earth, but he didn't, or he wouldn't be able to kill one on rannoch. But if he wasn't indoctrinated until that point than indoctrination was done to him so quickly and so strongly that he wouldn't have a brain to continue functioning anymore, also this theory requires indoctrination to work mor elike inception than indoctrination.

Thing is Shepard is probably the strongest willed man/woman in the galaxy so setting a time limit for his indoctrination time is difficult. Sure it reaches right there at the limit of superpowers, but he has come back from death and stuff.

I'm wondering if choosing one of the "wrong" doors actually means instant game over, if there is DLC. In that case I can see where the OP is coming from. But if Saren was able to fight back even with all the Reaper tech I dunno.

[bo_7md]

Zanath wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Huge difference.  Shepard's actions in the geth server directly effected reality.  It was not solely in Shepard's head, it was navigation of the geth server and directly confronting very real threats.  Indoctrination hallucinations occur solely in Shepard's head and have no effect on the real world.  The two are not comparable.

And ?
Being able to get out of a labyrinth doesn't change the rest of the world neither. Your point ?

wow, I can't see how you put the geth Consensus and a dream in the same category. The Geth level if we call it that is injecting shepard into the consensus, so shepard is part of that, what he does in there changes the geth i.e changes parts of reality. The past images he sees are memories of the geth Things that actually happend. What you claim to be I.T changes nothing as it is in his head doesn't matter if it is indoc or just a dream it only affects him and his body.

[Zanath]

bo_7md wrote...

wow, I can't see how you put the geth Consensus and a dream in the same category. The Geth level if we call it that is injecting shepard into the consensus, so shepard is part of that, what he does in there changes the geth i.e changes parts of reality. The past images he sees are memories of the geth Things that actually happend. What you claim to be I.T changes nothing as it is in his head doesn't matter if it is indoc or just a dream it only affects him and his body.

And then ?

Max Payne had also "dream sequences" in the game. I don't see how they are a bad thing, as they all contribute to the narrative.

[BadboyP12]

 To  Ieldra2, 
     While I do not agree with everything you say, I must complement you on a refreshingly civil argument. I was expecting a rant based on the title of the tread, but I was pleasantly surprised.

I have made my points avalible elsewhere,but heres another go. I think the indoctrination theory is currently the most widely accepted and cohesive ideas on this forum. While it is not perfect, I think it does adequetly explain the other options resonably and provides BioWare's writers sufficient wiggle room to still keep the ending from being completely fan-written.

Regardless if BioWare uses the indoctrination hypothesis or not, I still want more endings (which I wont go into due to no spoilers)

[Sherbet Lemon]

Zanath wrote...

No, it just put the player in the shoes of the hero, not really realizing that things aren't real. It's a narrative/perspective trick, I still don't see at all how the role of the hero is relevant here.

In a book or film, perhaps, but in a game where player choice is important any choice other than Destroy is invalidated.  You can not divorce game mechanics from the narrative, they are wholly intertwined.  The player character who chooses synthesis (or control) is revealed to be indoctrinated and subsequently shown to be wrong which leads to the following:  It makes a qualitative judgement on the nature of the choice and in a game  where player choice is paramount this is NOT ideal game design.  It invalidates the choices of those Shepards who believe they are doing the right thing.

At this point, we're talking in circles and I'm just going to agree to disagree.

EDIT: Wrong word XD

Modifié par Village Idiot, 22 mars 2012 - 11:53 .

[xsdob]

kalle90 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

OP, your solution doesn't explain the many plot holes... Indoctrination Theory does.

Indoctrination lost all of it's validity when it's subscribers began using visual effects and game mechanics as proof. They forgot that times slows down when your injured, or that you get lines around the creen when your low on health. Also, they dismiss the fact that the illusive man can kill himself, that the VI on thessia or ilos nor javik detect indoctrinations prescense, or that fast indoctrination leds to massive brain damage, so even if shepard did wake up after picking destroy, he would have been reduced to a vegatable as part of the indoctrination process.

Also, there is no such thing as "attempted indoctrination". It stays at the level the reapers set it at, so if they push you to the point that your hearing voices and seeing hallucinations than your already too far gone to resist them, it never goes down form that level, meaning you would have been detected as indoctrinated on thessia by the VI.

Everywhere I've seen, people who say the indoctrination theory is real try to say that he only got indoctrinated at the beam AND that he was always indoctrinated from the start of ME1, you have to pick one or the other. Indoctrination works by how close the reapers are to their indoctrinated followers, Rana was indoctrinated in ME1, when the reapers where in the galaxy the indoctrination process increased instantly, same thing with the hanar diplomat, so if the reapers operated this way, than shepard should have already fallen to them back on earth, but he didn't, or he wouldn't be able to kill one on rannoch. But if he wasn't indoctrinated until that point than indoctrination was done to him so quickly and so strongly that he wouldn't have a brain to continue functioning anymore, also this theory requires indoctrination to work mor elike inception than indoctrination.

Thing is Shepard is probably the strongest willed man/woman in the galaxy so setting a time limit for his indoctrination time is difficult. Sure it reaches right there at the limit of superpowers, but he has come back from death and stuff.

I'm wondering if choosing one of the "wrong" doors actually means instant game over, if there is DLC. In that case I can see where the OP is coming from. But if Saren was able to fight back even with all the Reaper tech I dunno.

If I may quote, "The Implants...sovereign is too strong. I'm sorry, it is too late for me."

Saren wasn't indoctrinated to the point of hallucinations, and even he was far too gone to fight them for more than a few seconds, enough time to shoot himself.

So indoctrination really leaves little in terms of a future for shepard.

Modifié par xsdob, 22 mars 2012 - 11:56 .

[bo_7md]

Zanath wrote...

bo_7md wrote...

wow, I can't see how you put the geth Consensus and a dream in the same category. The Geth level if we call it that is injecting shepard into the consensus, so shepard is part of that, what he does in there changes the geth i.e changes parts of reality. The past images he sees are memories of the geth Things that actually happend. What you claim to be I.T changes nothing as it is in his head doesn't matter if it is indoc or just a dream it only affects him and his body.

And then ?

Max Payne had also "dream sequences" in the game. I don't see how they are a bad thing, as they all contribute to the narrative.

You were comparing shepard having a dream/fighting the indoc  (inner travel) with the consensus which is not the same. Other games can't be used to justify an argument about a sci-fi world in a separate universe otherwise the argument has no point as you can prove anything with the number of games worlds out there.

[bo_7md]

Why do people pro-I.T fell that no one understands it. Its not that hard.

Shepard is fighting indoc, after he gets hit with the beam from the reaper he falls into a dream state fighting the indoctrination, so everything after rushing the elevator beam & the breath scene is in his head.

What did i get wrong here ?

[Northernian]

Ieldra2 wrote...

What this means is this: you can honestly believe, based on your own values, that either option for the final choice is a good thing, and there is no rational reason to single out one of them as "correct". Implementing the indoctrination hypothesis would rob players of the ability to make a choice based on their own values, and all on grounds of false reasoning. Basically: "if you think about it, you're wrong". That's insulting. And "If you're a power-hungry bastard, you cannot stop the Reapers"? So far power-hungry bastards could always win, too. Implementing this would destroy many Shepards built up from ME1. I am also seriously dumbfounded that the promoters of the indoctrination hypothesis would rob players of choice. Enshrine your favorite choice as correct and deny others theirs? That's hypocritical.

Now I'm interesting in what others have to say about this.

Summary:
I think implementing the indoctrination theory would be an an insult to rational thinkers because the indoctrination theorists' choice for the "correct" option is based on the false reasoning that association with major villains makes the other options recognizable as being trick answers. The merit of ideas is independent from the morality of those who support them. Anyone who contests this is not thinking rationally and prone to the (very common) delusion that evil is somehow contagious.

Nice try but you got it totally wrong just as many. I highlighted the areas where you are committing a slipper slope by resorting to rightness and wrongness dichatomy. 

I hardly think that players would be "robbed of choice" or anything like in the case of indoctrination. Quite the contrary, when they find out that Shepard may be indoctrinated, and if he is, when the DLC comes up, they would be able to make the choices they want. They dont't "impose" any choice, per se. They complain about how poopy linear the endings were, and that Bioware forcing Sheapard into an ending. The people assumed the indoctrination said nothing about bringing a correct option. 

Your post is pointless and pretentious.  Please watch the video more carefully: 

[kalle90]

xsdob wrote...
If I may quote, "The Implants...sovereign is too strong. I'm sorry, it is too late for me."

Saren wasn't indoctrinated to the point of hallucinations, and even he was far too gone to fight them for more than a few seconds, enough time to shoot himself.

So indoctrination really leaves little in terms of a future for shepard.

Which would mean just a huge influx of people reloading their saves right before the end to change their choice and in a way making the 2 wrong options pointless unless people want to stick with "I made wrong choice, game over, new career". But we never know what might be in store.

EDIT:
Actually, does the game even save post-game save. Now that would be really cheap if DLC describsion said "You must choose ending X to play this"

[bo_7md]

kalle90 wrote...

xsdob wrote...
If I may quote, "The Implants...sovereign is too strong. I'm sorry, it is too late for me."

Saren wasn't indoctrinated to the point of hallucinations, and even he was far too gone to fight them for more than a few seconds, enough time to shoot himself.

So indoctrination really leaves little in terms of a future for shepard.

Which would mean just a huge influx of people reloading their saves right before the end to change their choice and in a way making the 2 wrong options pointless unless people want to stick with "I made wrong choice, game over, new career". But we never know what might be in store.

EDIT:
Actually, does the game even save post-game save. Now that would be really cheap if DLC describsion said "You must choose ending X to play this"

That as the I.T only works if there is a DLC after the ending, but as of now the official statement from Bioware is that all DLCs will be during the events of ME3. as you can see when finish the game they put you back before the attack on Cerberus base which means it doesn't matter what ending you pick it is always the same post game.

[Heimdall]

Zanath wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Huge difference.  Shepard's actions in the geth server directly effected reality.  It was not solely in Shepard's head, it was navigation of the geth server and directly confronting very real threats.  Indoctrination hallucinations occur solely in Shepard's head and have no effect on the real world.  The two are not comparable.

And ?
Being able to get out of a labyrinth doesn't change the rest of the world neither. Your point ?

That Shepard navigating the Geth consensus does change the rest of the world.  Thus, it is not comparable to an indoctrination hallucination that is unable change the rest of the world.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 23 mars 2012 - 12:22 .

[kalle90]

Bioware sure knows how to play with words. If we haven't even seen the real ending, then DLC set before the ending could mean anything.

[Sherbet Lemon]

bo_7md wrote...

kalle90 wrote...

EDIT:
Actually, does the game even save post-game save. Now that would be really cheap if DLC describsion said "You must choose ending X to play this"

That as the I.T only works if there is a DLC after the ending, but as of now the official statement from Bioware is that all DLCs will be during the events of ME3. as you can see when finish the game they put you back before the attack on Cerberus base which means it doesn't matter what ending you pick it is always the same post game.

After you beat the game, it starts back  before the assault on Cerberus Base.  The last time you can do ANY missions. 

[bo_7md]

Village Idiot wrote...

bo_7md wrote...

kalle90 wrote...

EDIT:
Actually, does the game even save post-game save. Now that would be really cheap if DLC describsion said "You must choose ending X to play this"

That as the I.T only works if there is a DLC after the ending, but as of now the official statement from Bioware is that all DLCs will be during the events of ME3. as you can see when finish the game they put you back before the attack on Cerberus base which means it doesn't matter what ending you pick it is always the same post game.

After you beat the game, it starts back  before the assault on Cerberus Base.  The last time you can do ANY missions. 

How is what you said different from what I said ?

[Texhnolyze101]

It won't insult anybody but you as im perfectly fine with bioware adding it in.

[Sherbet Lemon]

bo_7md wrote...

How is what you said different from what I said ?

My bad, I must have missed the rest of what you said.  Sorry? XD

[bo_7md]

Village Idiot wrote...

bo_7md wrote...

How is what you said different from what I said ?

My bad, I must have missed the rest of what you said.  Sorry? XD

No prob

[bo_7md]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

It won't insult anybody but you as im perfectly fine with bioware adding it in.

If they use I.T it would be like saying you guys played all 3 games just to fight in a dream. Does that seem better to you than killing the reapers with a sucky ending ?

[StabGuy]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

It won't insult anybody but you as im perfectly fine with bioware adding it in.

Same.

Reminds me of Castlevania endings. There are early fake endings trigged throughout the end-game, it's only if you do a few specific things does the true ending and boss unlock.

They can easily add the same thing to ME3, if there is QQ at least it will be for different reasons.

[bennyjammin79]

Dear OP,

You don't speak for me. Ever.

[kalle90]

xsdob wrote...
So indoctrination really leaves little in terms of a future for shepard.

Actually just remembered how Saren said the more control Reapers take over husks the less capable they become. I'd guess Reapers see more worth in somewhat independent Shepard than just a husk who can only run and slap. Assuming Reapers need any more help at that point, but I guess it all depends of the situation. If Reapers have need for agent who can single-handledly storm small buildings, track down the enemy survivors etc. who knows.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

When the Reapers are dead, Indoctrination effects are over. This isn't an organic problem like the Thorian's spores were.

[fwc577]

bo_7md wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

It won't insult anybody but you as im perfectly fine with bioware adding it in.

If they use I.T it would be like saying you guys played all 3 games just to fight in a dream. Does that seem better to you than killing the reapers with a sucky ending ?

No, which is why the ending needs to be changed.

I support IT theory hoping that a significant ending is added in that somehow has harbinger involved for more than a "cameo".  Maybe when we awaken it paralyzes Harbinger enough that we actually enter inside and find a way to destroy the Reapers and find out how to activate and use the crucible/catalyst/citadel.  This wiill lead us to 3 better endings that actually explain things.

It would also allow them to actually implement a real battle with TIM as a final boss battle.

Modifié par fwc577, 23 mars 2012 - 12:53 .

[bo_7md]

fwc577 wrote...

bo_7md wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

It won't insult anybody but you as im perfectly fine with bioware adding it in.

If they use I.T it would be like saying you guys played all 3 games just to fight in a dream. Does that seem better to you than killing the reapers with a sucky ending ?

No, which is why the ending needs to be changed.

I support IT theory hoping that a significant ending is added in that somehow has harbinger involved for more than a "cameo".  Maybe when we awaken it paralyzes Harbinger enough that we actually enter inside and destroy the Reapers and while inside we find out how to activate and use the crucible/catalyst/citadel.  This wiill lead us to 3 better endings that actually explain things.

It would also allow them to actually implement a real battle with TIM as a final boss battle.

Actually there was a battle with the illusive man but it was removed, That in its own should tell you that the IT is wrong, but i doubt its enough.

and Yes it means we played the game for a dream which they never even bothered to tell us about, come on man you have the see how illogical this sounds.

Everyone keeps going back to the DLC and I truly believe its Biowares fault they should just have come out and said yes I.T is true or No it is not. They just said DLC which will clarify (Not change) the ending and answer questions.