209 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

chengthao wrote...

the best kind of feedback is usually negative feedback, i always read negative reviews on products i intend to purchase, positive reviews tend to be "in-the-moment" type of thing

Agreed... on amazon, I definitely read the most negative reviews.. that's where most of the truth is.  I'd only check the positive ones for reassurance/reinforcement/the other common side of the story.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Mr. Kain seems to be a rather sharp fellow.

I enjoyed reading that article.

[Killer3000ad]

Somebody has to tell the truth given how untrustworthy the so called 'professional' game reviewers are.

[Ronin1325]

Rickin10 wrote...

Ronin1325 wrote...


Hmm. Guldhun2, do you really think most people will just buy the 'clarified' DLC happily? For myself I can't say for sure, but I suspect that charging for it will actually make things worse.

I thought this too before I saw a thread the other day asking if you would pay for a changed ending, and I was shocked to see the majority would be very happy to hand over more money.

... So... much... for... holding the line I guess?  I hope that's just a majority of posters on that thread & little else. Because if they charge & tons of people buy it, that will set a bad precedent for endings in the future! 

[Paul Sedgmore]

chengthao wrote...

the best kind of feedback is usually negative feedback, i always read negative reviews on products i intend to purchase, positive reviews tend to be "in-the-moment" type of thing

When it is constuctive yeah its great, Ray Muzyka didn't say they didn't listen to negative feedback but "Destructive Criticism" like demanding people get fired for this, that or the other or death threats towards staff members or even just comments like "This game sucks!!" without explaining what they didn't like

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ronin1325 wrote...

Rickin10 wrote...

Ronin1325 wrote...


Hmm. Guldhun2, do you really think most people will just buy the 'clarified' DLC happily? For myself I can't say for sure, but I suspect that charging for it will actually make things worse.

I thought this too before I saw a thread the other day asking if you would pay for a changed ending, and I was shocked to see the majority would be very happy to hand over more money.

... So... much... for... holding the line I guess?  I hope that's just a majority of posters on that thread & little else. Because if they charge & tons of people buy it, that will set a bad precedent for endings in the future! 

Unless, Bioware's dumped/boycotted like a bad habit immediately afterwards for that blatant exploitation.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 mars 2012 - 12:42 .

[kbct]

This is by far the most important sentence in the article:

"... promising ‘clarity’ is not the same thing as promising a new batch of options and endings for players. The phrasing is as inscrutable as one would expect from a PR maneuver like this."

Ray committed to only the most minor of changes, yet other news articles are saying the ending will be changed. While that is technically true, I think A LOT of customers are gonna be surprised if BioWare only describes the colors and god-child in more detail.

Modifié par kbct, 22 mars 2012 - 12:48 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Are you guys blind? Have you still not realised that the ME3 endings controversy is all a big set-up for a DLC happy ending? They'll release a happy DLC ending, ask 20 or more dollars for it and they make another couple of millions. And then they can release PR messages saying how they are the greatest ever and listen to fans while you applaud them for taking another 20 dollars from your pocket because they know you'll buy it.

Don't speak for me. Bioware can't redeem themselves to me. Either Mass Effect 3 had a **** ending, or it had an incomplete ending witheld for payed DLC. The DLC end could be the greatest thing on gods great Earth, but that wouldn't change the fact that it is a detestable act of greed.

[SeventyOne]

Allowing so many people (and not "some") to stay in the trenches for at least until PAX and without any clarification on their moves is bad handling of Bioware.
I think that they do not understand that time is working against them.

"Lots of speculation" about the oncoming free or paid DLC or patch or magic fix is not doing any good nor to the fans neither does to EA/Bioware.
As for the fans they can easily find something else to occupy their leisure time and forget (maybe that is the best thing a fan can do now) the ME3 endings mess. But even the starchild would agree that no company has the luxury of alienating with a significant portion of their fanbase.

Contrary to the majority of '"journalists" at the gaming mega sites (their payroll is depended from the advertisments of the games they review), the editors at Forbes are merely stating the obvious. What is not obvious is what on earth Bioware thinks, and more essentially, what is Bioware about to do.

ProTip: You re doin it wrong, Bioware.

[exskeeny]

Some guy at Forbes wrote.....

the notion that artists ought only respond to constructive criticism is delirious.

I personally don't think the guy has gotten the point here.

Bioware has said consistantly that constructive criticism helps them to know what went wrong. 

for example:

"The ending was rubbish. omg I hate you now bioware" is no good and helps nobody other than the person saying it to vent some stress.

"the ending was bad because......list of reasons" Is great.

Bioware does respond to non-constructive criticism by asking why they think negatively and gives us the opportunity to do it here.

Just my thoughts.

[avatar2396]

game reviewers are idiots to start with anyways. Unless you are a game developer or have worked in the industry their opinions are meaningless to me because they are completely uninformed about the game development process. They dont even know how to critique a product properly either. Even games that arent that good get above average ratings. Like DA2 got what like an 85 combined? Even games that are extremly terrible usually get like 40 or 50 percent when they should be getting like a 10 to 20 percent. My other beef is personal taste of the reviewers. So if someone is fps fan they arent going to critique an mmo effectively and vice versa.

[recyclebin2000]

Misleading title, Forbes didn't attack anyone.

[MystaisPC]

The PLC wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

@The PLC, you may think this is childish and that Erik is a jerk...

but I personally don't want the industry to follow in Bioware's footsteps on this one... so...

Let the bashing contine...

I don't want game companies to work on extra ending because of annoying fans either.

When all games include a 100% satisfaction guarantee or your money back, then you may have a point.  

If I buy a book and the final chapter is not included or is terrible, should I be able to complain or give a bad review?  If I buy a product and it does not perform as advertised, should I be able to complain or write a bad review?

We are customers and without us the game companies go >poof<.  Artistic expression should be secondary to customer satisfaction.  Artistic expression does not keep the lights on... customers buying your product does.  

EA/Bioware can hide behind artistic expression only because they already have our money.  If this issue came up before the game was released, I guarantee the ending would have been changed quickly or at least a satisfactory closure or resolution would be included (with epilogue).

Modifié par MystaisPC, 22 mars 2012 - 01:02 .

[PyroTechNiK]

The PLC wrote...

All the complaining and ****ty attitudes has reached a point, where I don't even know why Bioware bothers to reply. Grow up.

You're the the one with the crappy attitude.

[Humanaut]

When the employees at Bioware, Casey Hudson included, would be Artists, why do they not answer like artists to the criticism, instead just produce some non-saying PR-Talk.

I´m a dramaturg and author and work at different german theatres. When there´s coming up any criticism on my work from the audience, we as a theatre have to react on it - not explain our decisions, but we have to be in constant dialogue with our audience, not just listen to them, but deliver answers.

What´s happening here right now is something unique, because the audience, was part of the ínteractive story they created. Just because of that, the debate is so emotional.

And Bioware doesn´t realize that they´re in dispute, because they brought this  interactive experience that lasted since the first Mass Effect, to an end with fairly traditional story-telling. The players just want the freedom that they had over the course of all three games, also in the ending. That´s not wrong, that was to be expected by this form of storytelling.

Would the guys from Bioware be Artists, they would have start a real dialogue with the players, and just give them what they want. A truly interactive ending experience, where any small decision that was taken, in all three games, has influence on it.

Modifié par Humanaut, 22 mars 2012 - 01:47 .

[Ronin1325]

kbct wrote...

This is by far the most important sentence in the article:

"... promising ‘clarity’ is not the same thing as promising a new batch of options and endings for players. The phrasing is as inscrutable as one would expect from a PR maneuver like this."

Ray committed to only the most minor of changes, yet other news articles are saying the ending will be changed. While that is technically true, I think A LOT of customers are gonna be surprised if BioWare only describes the colors and god-child in more detail.

I know, right kbct? My "PR Radar" perked up immediately at that and I posted that thought immediately on the main Sticky. Along with saying that 'clarifying' the endings isn't going to work because all it will tell us is how bad the endings are now. We already know that. We don't need to see trash in HD to know that it's trash.

[Ronin1325]

Humanaut wrote...

When the employees at Bioware, Casey Hudson included, would be Artists, why do they not answer like artists to the criticism, instead just produce some non-saying PR-Talk.

I´m a dramaturg and author and work at different german theatres. When there´s coming up any criticism on my work from the audience, we as a theatre have to react on it, not explain our decisions, but we have to be in constant dialogue with our audience, not just listen to them, but deliver answers.

What´s happening here right is something unique, because the audience here, was part of the ínteractive story their created. Just because of that, the debate is so emotional.

And Bioware doesn´t realize that they´re in dispute, becausethey ended an interactive experience that lasted since the first Mass Effect, with fairly traditional story-telling. The players just want the freedom that they had over the course of all 3 games, also in the ending.

Would the guys from Bioware be Artists, they would have start a rel dialogue with the players, and just give them what they want. A truly interactive ending experience, where any small decision that was taken in all three games has influence on it.

But that means admitting they failed to deliver what they promised. I just don't know if EA/Bioware has the corporate humility to do that.

[LegendaryBlade]

Humanaut wrote...

When the employees at Bioware, Casey Hudson included, would be Artists, why do they not answer like artists to the criticism, instead just produce some non-saying PR-Talk.

I´m a dramaturg and author and work at different german theatres. When there´s coming up any criticism on my work from the audience, we as a theatre have to react on it, not explain our decisions, but we have to be in constant dialogue with our audience, not just listen to them, but deliver answers.

What´s happening here right is something unique, because the audience here, was part of the ínteractive story their created. Just because of that, the debate is so emotional.

And Bioware doesn´t realize that they´re in dispute, becausethey ended an interactive experience that lasted since the first Mass Effect, with fairly traditional story-telling. The players just want the freedom that they had over the course of all 3 games, also in the ending.

Would the guys from Bioware be Artists, they would have start a rel dialogue with the players, and just give them what they want. A truly interactive ending experience, where any small decision that was taken in all three games has influence on it.

Wonderful point, probably one of the best posts of the ni-...Errr, of the morning. I hadn't thoght of that, but then I suppose you have a very unique position compared to me, being in an artistic career.

(As much as us fencers like to call it an art, i've never gotten smashing reviews on the way I stabbed someone)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

"-the notion that artists ought only respond to constructive criticism is delirious. If games are truly art, and the teams who develop them truly artists, why should they be treated with kid’s gloves?
        There is no need to take a “constructive” attitude with talented artists,” writes Stephen Bond, “if anything, they find such an attitude more offensive. As H.L. Mencken said: “I do not object to being denounced, but I can’t abide being schoolmastered, especially by men I regard as imbeciles.” The constructive critic is a crow who takes it upon himself to educate the eagle; one who tries to force his own limitations on those who can soar far higher, unencumbered.”

Wut?

Constructive criticims is the best kind of criticism.

And the underlined is utter BS.

[jackyboy666]

Spot on.

Constructive critisism is the best, which I think the 99% of the fanbase is contributing towards the ending of ME3.

If someone said my art was utter crap, then I merely take it as their point of view, and not hold much else towards what they think. Pst Whatever! But if someone said I dont like it because of X,Y,Z and would be better conveyed, portrayed with A.B,C then I would be like, oh yeah...I get you! thanks! ONLY if it helped convey the message I am trying to get across. Again with art it really is down to the individual to express how they feel and noone else should really convince you otherwise (unless you feel it would improve your message)

BUT when dealing with a product that has promised multiple endings depending on the course of your actions, its kinda difficult to play the "Art" argument. Whether we liked the ending or not...you can see where I'm getting at

Modifié par jackyboy666, 22 mars 2012 - 01:23 .

[Icinix]

Its good.

I'm tired of games and game companies preaching some excuse to release heavy handed DRM, punishing players, buggy games, and sub standard games.

Artistic integrity is just the latest in a line of popular excuses game companies are starting to use.

He speaks exactly the truth about Art, and that is art is NEVER handled with kid gloves NOR is it handled with "Its just art...get over it." attitudes. It is critiqued to within an inch of its life. Sometimes it is revised, sometimes it is punished, sometimes it is reborn.

It is never put on display - then defended for artisitc integrity when people make suggestions or comments about what it did wrong and what it could have done better.

[Irx]

Funny how we should read non-game media these days to see an unbiased (oe more likely not bought off) opinion on games.

[AkiKishi]

The part about reviwers is spot on. Reviews were completely useless when it came to ME3. As much as "haters" can be a bother, they are a very useful source of because they don't hold back and they don't sugar coat.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanaut wrote...

Would the guys from Bioware be Artists, they would have start a rel dialogue with the players, and just give them what they want. A truly interactive ending experience, where any small decision that was taken in all three games has influence on it.

No.

Being a "true" artists and always sucking up to the masses have little do do wiht eachother.

[Icinix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanaut wrote...

Would the guys from Bioware be Artists, they would have start a rel dialogue with the players, and just give them what they want. A truly interactive ending experience, where any small decision that was taken in all three games has influence on it.

No.

Being a "true" artists and always sucking up to the masses have little do do wiht eachother.

Arguably they're artists in a consumer product space.

As such their job is to bring the art the consumer wants with the developers vision.

Perhaps they're less artists and more architects - the gaming world wants a FPS that meets certian critera - the game company releases their version of the FPS that meets that criteria while bringing their own unique vision to it.