Out of all the (gaming) news outlets, I never thought Forbes would be the one with most credibility. I guess that's what happens, if a site is not paid big add bucks by the publisher(s). I hope they keep this up.
Forbes openly attacks Dr. Ray Muzyka's response and claims... rather well...
Débuté par
Mr. Gogeta34
, mars 22 2012 11:34
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#102
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:25
A Crusty Knight Of Colour
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I think the idea of constructive/destructive criticism that people are taking away are flawed. Regardless of whether one is constructive or destructive, it has to be valid to begin with. Simple "u suxx lolz" is obviously not valid criticism.
The difference between the two lies in what the critic has to offer regarding alternative proposals. If there are alternative proposals for criticism X, it's constructive. If it's only to point out the flaws, it's destructive.
e.g Indoctrination theory is constructive criticism, because it offers an alternate method of approach, it attempts to demonstrate how X can be improved. Hence, constructive dialog.
OTOH, compiling a list of plot holes in the endings is destructive criticism, because it offers no alternative to remedy the flaws. Hence, destructive dialog.
Both however are still valid forms of criticism, because they (hopefully) don't make or assert objectively false claims about X (X being the endings).
And it goes without saying that both are predicated on a negative opinion (the endings suck) and that's definitely not to say that you can't inject emotion or person opinion into either kind of criticism. It's the difference between "YOU SUCK" and "YOU SUCK BECAUSE ..." with the former being untenable and the later being absolutely okay, provided that the actual arguments hold water.
Of course, if you want to use the term "destructive" and just run away with it to portray THOSE people (read: folks with different opinions) as inherently evil, unhelpful and/or illegitimate, that's fine.
It's not like the BSN is lacking of that sort of mindset.
tl;dr - Mass Effect 3's story and BioWare's feelings shouldn't be sacrosanct. There's something to be said in "going too far" or "not having a point". But feigned civility and arguments blunted to the point where they no longer hold merit serves absolutely no purpose.
The difference between the two lies in what the critic has to offer regarding alternative proposals. If there are alternative proposals for criticism X, it's constructive. If it's only to point out the flaws, it's destructive.
e.g Indoctrination theory is constructive criticism, because it offers an alternate method of approach, it attempts to demonstrate how X can be improved. Hence, constructive dialog.
OTOH, compiling a list of plot holes in the endings is destructive criticism, because it offers no alternative to remedy the flaws. Hence, destructive dialog.
Both however are still valid forms of criticism, because they (hopefully) don't make or assert objectively false claims about X (X being the endings).
And it goes without saying that both are predicated on a negative opinion (the endings suck) and that's definitely not to say that you can't inject emotion or person opinion into either kind of criticism. It's the difference between "YOU SUCK" and "YOU SUCK BECAUSE ..." with the former being untenable and the later being absolutely okay, provided that the actual arguments hold water.
Of course, if you want to use the term "destructive" and just run away with it to portray THOSE people (read: folks with different opinions) as inherently evil, unhelpful and/or illegitimate, that's fine.
It's not like the BSN is lacking of that sort of mindset.
tl;dr - Mass Effect 3's story and BioWare's feelings shouldn't be sacrosanct. There's something to be said in "going too far" or "not having a point". But feigned civility and arguments blunted to the point where they no longer hold merit serves absolutely no purpose.
Modifié par CrustyBot, 22 mars 2012 - 02:35 .
#103
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:25
Silicon Drifter 82
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Relix28 wrote...
Out of all the (gaming) news outlets, I never thought Forbes would be the one with most credibility. I guess that's what happens, if a site is not paid big add bucks by the publisher(s). I hope they keep this up.
Forbes is up there with Fortune and Business Week. Their professionalism > IGN, Gamespot, Giant Bomb, 1Up, etc
#104
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:34
Ronin1325
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Silicon Drifter 82 wrote...
Adamski_707 wrote...
Interesting article.
On a side note i find it ironic how the guy acting aggressively on the first page of this thread has a batarian as his avatar.
They are pretty pissed for nuking one of their star systems in ME 2.
+1 virtual cookie to each of you.
#105
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:35
kbct
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Silicon Drifter 82 wrote...
Relix28 wrote...
Out of all the (gaming) news outlets, I never thought Forbes would be the one with most credibility. I guess that's what happens, if a site is not paid big add bucks by the publisher(s). I hope they keep this up.
Forbes is up there with Fortune and Business Week. Their professionalism > IGN, Gamespot, Giant Bomb, 1Up, etc
Yes, and Barron's and the Wall Street Journal. They are a major player. They talk about business and financial news. They are looking at this story from a business perspective.
I must admit, it is refreshing to read Forbes perspective. It's so unlike the other gaming sites.
#106
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:42
Silicon Drifter 82
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kbct wrote...
Silicon Drifter 82 wrote...
Relix28 wrote...
Out of all the (gaming) news outlets, I never thought Forbes would be the one with most credibility. I guess that's what happens, if a site is not paid big add bucks by the publisher(s). I hope they keep this up.
Forbes is up there with Fortune and Business Week. Their professionalism > IGN, Gamespot, Giant Bomb, 1Up, etc
Yes, and Barron's and the Wall Street Journal. They are a major player. They talk about business and financial news. They are looking at this story from a business perspective.
I must admit, it is refreshing to read Forbes perspective. It's so unlike the other gaming sites.
All you need now is a front page piece in the NY Times or Wash Post
#107
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:45
tetrisblock4x1
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****... if we have their attention then what is that implying? Do they think that game development is a big deal in entertainment now?
Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 22 mars 2012 - 02:47 .
#108
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:56
alex13abc
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Great article. Just suscribed to Forbes. They have been consistently discerning on this issue.
#109
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:57
ZtalkerRM
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tetrisblock4x1 wrote...
****... if we have their attention then what is that implying? Do they think that game development is a big deal in entertainment now?
No, but how the status of Bioware is breaking down (read they had another 5% loss in shares this week) is. Apprantly, from a buiseness perspective, this whole 'ME3 ending debacle' is interesting.
#110
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:58
Star fury
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Good article. I really like this guy. He openly expresses a view of the 95% of the fans about endings.
#111
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:58
Zaisha_temp
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tetrisblock4x1 wrote...
****... if we have their attention then what is that implying? Do they think that game development is a big deal in entertainment now?
It makes more money than movies these days. So from the business (magazine) point of view that would be "yes".
#112
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:12
YohkoOhno
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It's important to note that this guy is not on the staff of the Magazine. He is a simple blogger, his bio:
So he's not representing the magazine in the same manner as the guys who write policy.
I feel while he makes good points, he misunderstands a lot about the game industry, as he's not like their other blogger, he's more or less covering the controversy outside of it than the actual game. And these are opinion pieces, not factual analysis.
What I really didn't understand is why he quoted Stephen Bond? First of all, WHO the heck is Bond and why is his opinion important. Based on Bond's site, Bond seems like a guy who makes the Escapists Yahtzee look like Miss Manners. http://plover.net/~b...ml#constructive
However, if you're going to quote this Bond guy, I have to think of this quote from the same site
The only that disappoints me about this "Hold the Line" movement is that it tries to shout down anybody who disagrees. Let's go to their message boards and flame those that disagree. If you feel confident in your opinion, why feel like you have to go everywhere to justify it. It's like people think if they increase the volume the opinions will change.
I'm a blogger and freelance writer. Currently I'm Editor-in-Chief of The League of Ordinary Gentlemen. I write about politics at my other blog. I've written about fantasy literature at The Atlantic. Here at Forbes I write about the intersection of nerd culture, economics, and craft beer (among other things.) Email me here or follow me on Twitter and Facebook. Read my Forbes blog here.
So he's not representing the magazine in the same manner as the guys who write policy.
I feel while he makes good points, he misunderstands a lot about the game industry, as he's not like their other blogger, he's more or less covering the controversy outside of it than the actual game. And these are opinion pieces, not factual analysis.
What I really didn't understand is why he quoted Stephen Bond? First of all, WHO the heck is Bond and why is his opinion important. Based on Bond's site, Bond seems like a guy who makes the Escapists Yahtzee look like Miss Manners. http://plover.net/~b...ml#constructive
However, if you're going to quote this Bond guy, I have to think of this quote from the same site
There are some on the Net who treat their own selves with such sanctity that they take a differing opinion as a personal insult, and so delicate that they take a personal insult like a blow to the liver. How can these people get through a day without severe mental trauma? What kind of padded-cell environment do they live in? No wonder so many people are in therapy.
The only that disappoints me about this "Hold the Line" movement is that it tries to shout down anybody who disagrees. Let's go to their message boards and flame those that disagree. If you feel confident in your opinion, why feel like you have to go everywhere to justify it. It's like people think if they increase the volume the opinions will change.
#113
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:15
kbct
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The video game industry is huge:Zaisha_temp wrote...
tetrisblock4x1 wrote...
****... if we have their attention then what is that implying? Do they think that game development is a big deal in entertainment now?
It makes more money than movies these days. So from the business (magazine) point of view that would be "yes".
"The video game industry is expected to continue growing at a rapid pace for several years to come, with game-related spending reaching $112 billion by 2015, according to a report issued Tuesday by Gartner, the technology research company."
"The report, “Gaming Ecosystem, 2011,” said spending on video game hardware and games in 2011 was expected to exceed $74 billion, up from $67 billion on games in 2010."
http://bits.blogs.ny...h-gartner-says/
Modifié par kbct, 22 mars 2012 - 03:16 .
#114
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:22
kbct
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YohkoOhno wrote...
So he's not representing the magazine in the same manner as the guys who write policy.
Yes, but he still represents Forbes. He is getting paid.
#115
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:30
Silicon Drifter 82
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kbct wrote...
YohkoOhno wrote...
So he's not representing the magazine in the same manner as the guys who write policy.
Yes, but he still represents Forbes. He is getting paid.
agreed
#116
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:31
Guest_slyguy200_*
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Good article, it seems that less people bought this fake apology than i thought. This is good news for the anti-ending group.
HOLD THE LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOLD THE LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#117
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:33
Guest_slyguy200_*
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PLC you are the only one being childish, always complaining and getting censored and whatnot.
#118
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:54
Dragoonlordz
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Holding the line is redundant because as mentioned elsewhere they have won nothing that they would not of got anyways. They would of got this additional content regardless just from constructive feedback which Bioware always asks for. The boycotts, the threats, the review bombing, the filing complaints with the FTC, emotional and financial blackmail, the aggression and arrogance of many (not all) was pointless. All feedback is asked for and upon which they would of created DLC to address such things as they always do even when remove all the nonsense people did in this case. It is essentially a gimmick to make them feel better not affect change, change they would of got from feedback alone in first place like all titles Bioware makes do the same. Wait for feedback and apply it to DLC. Also Forbes are jumping on the popular opinion bandwagon to gain popularity. Forbes has gone down the crapper as far as respectable content goes.
Oh and let you in on a little secret ME3 was still top number one seller last week in sales charts.
Oh and let you in on a little secret ME3 was still top number one seller last week in sales charts.
Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 mars 2012 - 04:00 .
#119
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:57
TheNevincer
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Thank god there are heroes like Forbes out there to stand with us in this fight.
#120
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:59
Blarty
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Ah yes, Forbes, the last Bastion of gaming journalism that no one on here really gave two hoots about 3 weeks ago.
#121
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 04:01
Guest_slyguy200_*
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Dragoonlordz wrote...
Holding the line is redundant because as mentioned elsewhere they have won nothing that they would not of got anyways. They would of got this additional content regardless just from constructive feedback which Bioware always asks for. The boycotts, the threats, the review bombing, the filing complaints with the FTC, emotional and financial blackmail, the aggression and arrogance of many (not all) was pointless. All feedback is asked for and upon which they would of created DLC to address such things as they always do even when remove all the nonsense people did in this case. It is essentially a gimmick to make them feel better not affect change, change they would of got from feedback alone in first place like all titles Bioware makes do the same. Wait for feedback and apply it to DLC. Also Forbes are jumping on the popular opinion bandwagon to gain popularity. Forbes has gone down the crapper as far as respectable content goes.
Then we aren't doing any harm anyway, so why stop. And if not then we wouldn't be able to get faster results, not that we have but we do have a promise that they will give us an answer (presumably at PAX), Not pointless we made it clear that what BW did was wrong and in a much faster way, If forbes is going down by supporting us then it is because of people like you who think that, as for bandwagon they came up with a valid response before the whole thing really even started. As for respectabel content it is obviously not true because their content isn't limited to this it is a wide variety of things, and if this is something that you think will take them down the you are quite narrow minded.
#122
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 04:01
Father_Jerusalem
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How dare BioWare be open and willing to work with fans and learn from their mistakes to try and make things better! HOW DARE THEY! THAT IS, for some unexplained and nebulous reason, PURE EVIL, BIOWARE! RAGERAGERAGERAGERAGE!
ITT: People who have no idea what constructive criticism actually is, why people will listen to it, or how to give it.
ITT: People who have no idea what constructive criticism actually is, why people will listen to it, or how to give it.
#123
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 04:05
kbct
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TheNevincer wrote...
Thank god there are heroes like Forbes out there to stand with us in this fight.
BBC has been neutral. I like neutral.
#124
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 04:11
Guest_slyguy200_*
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Father_Jerusalem wrote...
How dare BioWare be open and willing to work with fans and learn from their mistakes to try and make things better! HOW DARE THEY! THAT IS, for some unexplained and nebulous reason, PURE EVIL, BIOWARE! RAGERAGERAGERAGERAGE!
ITT: People who have no idea what constructive criticism actually is, why people will listen to it, or how to give it.
We are merely suspicious of their true intent, it may not be quite what we expect and instead just some more stuff to buy time or to quiet us while they get back to hyping up there less than satisfying game withuot us interupting there plans.
#125
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 04:13
Father_Jerusalem
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slyguy200 wrote...
Father_Jerusalem wrote...
How dare BioWare be open and willing to work with fans and learn from their mistakes to try and make things better! HOW DARE THEY! THAT IS, for some unexplained and nebulous reason, PURE EVIL, BIOWARE! RAGERAGERAGERAGERAGE!
ITT: People who have no idea what constructive criticism actually is, why people will listen to it, or how to give it.
We are merely suspicious of their true intent, it may not be quite what we expect and instead just some more stuff to buy time or to quiet us while they get back to hyping up there less than satisfying game withuot us interupting there plans.
OMG I'M SORRY I SPOKE UP PLEASE DON'T HIT ME AGAIN!
