How can you look at this article and think it's "neutral". The comment came from one of the two heads of the company, who said that he had to realize that fan complaints were genuine and come up with something to help ease it.
But because his wording wasn't, what, utterly appologetic, he gets trashed by Forbes and by a lot of you.
This guy Erik Kain, at the start, seemed like he was trying to cover this other side. But the combination of this "neutral" attack on Ray Muzyka for being diplomatic and on Corin Moriaty because he said years ago that he was happy that Sucker Punch changed a character design mid-production seems like he knows how many clicks these stories are getting and is happy to keep producing them.
Forbes openly attacks Dr. Ray Muzyka's response and claims... rather well...
Débuté par
Mr. Gogeta34
, mars 22 2012 11:34
Retour en haut
#152
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 05:38
Sevorast
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Femlob wrote...
The PLC wrote...
That is just childish. What a jerk.
Why? Because he didn't wrap his criticism in several layers of soft padding? Because that's exactly what the faint of heart imply whenever they demand the use of "constructive criticism". I swear, political correctness is the first nail in our species' collective coffin.
The Dutch have a saying: "zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden". Loosely translated, it boils down to "gentle doctors leave festering wounds".
There's no criticism quite as constructive or effective as brutal honesty, and anyone who wields it is aces in my book. If you can't stand the heat, stay the fuck out of the kitchen.
Best post I have read on these forums. Ever. Period. <3
Every post I read from now on shall be compared to this one, and shall likely be found lacking because of it.
#153
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 05:41
YohkoOhno
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Honestly, Erik seems like Slashdot's JonKatz--a blogger who got a reputation on Slashdot for misunderstanding the Geek community. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JonKatz
Unlike the other Forbes writer who actually covers video games, he seems more fascinated by the protest than the actual game. He probably supports this because of Internet activism. I'm hoping somebody else with a lot of popularity can deconstruct his arguments.
Unlike the other Forbes writer who actually covers video games, he seems more fascinated by the protest than the actual game. He probably supports this because of Internet activism. I'm hoping somebody else with a lot of popularity can deconstruct his arguments.
#154
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 05:45
Oldbones2
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The PLC wrote...
That is just childish. What a jerk.
That's nice, now if you could phrase your criticism in a constructive manner. I'd be more inclined to listen.
Oh that's right, only the anti ending crowd can be petty or rude.
Your just being honest.
#155
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 05:48
Guest_slyguy200_*
Guest_slyguy200_*
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Father_Jerusalem wrote...
...
You're twisting everything he's actually saying in order to fit this "HE'S LYING! HE'S A LIAR! HE HATES US! WAAH!" agenda that you're peddling.
Be suspicious, I don't care, but instead of congregating together to whine about how persecuted you are, and how BioWare hates and loathes you, and is going to come to your house and kick your puppy, why don't you take this opportunity - this UNPRECEDENTED OPPORTUNITY - to believe that the man is upset that so many fans are mad and ACTUALLY wants to make it better, and work WITH HIM? WHY?
Oh wait, I get it. Because if you work with him, that deflates the persecution complex you all get off on.
NO, we are just suspicious, we never said he lied, but he may have manipulated thoes words. We have never congregated to whine about persecution, you have though. Never said BW hates us just that they screwed up. I WOULD NEVER HARM A PUPPY. We are taking this as an oppurtunity, we are only wondering if he meant it or if he just said that he would only CLARIFY the end, which is not what we want, we(and by that i mean most of the people on my side) want it to be fixed in a much more significant way. We are glad he recognizes the error and will work with him we just wonder if it really matters as much as we hope (as far as i am concerned it does) and that he is truly sincere.
I am just as tired of this crap as you but i will not stop until i get answers. I don't want to persecute anyone and that isn't what i am doing.
Calm down you seem to be getting a little worked up.
Modifié par slyguy200, 22 mars 2012 - 05:55 .
#156
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 05:48
Adanu
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I'm not surprised one bit people are openly praising someone attacking another person.
It's rather sad what this community has become.
It's rather sad what this community has become.
#157
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 05:53
Guest_slyguy200_*
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Father_Jerusalem wrote...
RocketManSR2 wrote...
If I were BioWare, I wouldn't want to f***ing say anything, either. They get ripped no matter what. Pathetic.
No ****ing ****.
Say "we understand you're upset and want to work with you"... get ripped for it.
Don't say anything... get ripped for it.
Release a DLC where Grunt shows you how to make pancakes the Krogan way... get ripped for it. Well, probably. Though not by me, I'd fork over cash for that DLC in a heartbeat.
Dude calm down, i get wha you are saying and nobody is ripping anyone apart. We are just trying to fully understand what he is saying and well it is still kind of as if he said nothing, but i think that he is finally being sincere. I am however not without doubt that this is a PR thing just to try and silence us, so i will keep on the pressure and support ideas of change and play along with the statement if it is sincere.
Modifié par slyguy200, 22 mars 2012 - 05:53 .
#158
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 05:53
Oldbones2
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Uhhh, IGN has been tearing into Retakers for weeks, and still is. It was not a friendly criticque. It was not a helpful bit of advice. It was screaming condescention to a group of fans that had done nothing wrong.
The fact the one or two others have taken a rather neutral but honest tone and don't just fall in line is rather heartening actually.
The fact the one or two others have taken a rather neutral but honest tone and don't just fall in line is rather heartening actually.
#159
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 05:53
MelfinaofOutlawStar
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YohkoOhno wrote...
Honestly, Erik seems like Slashdot's JonKatz--a blogger who got a reputation on Slashdot for misunderstanding the Geek community. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JonKatz
Unlike the other Forbes writer who actually covers video games, he seems more fascinated by the protest than the actual game. He probably supports this because of Internet activism. I'm hoping somebody else with a lot of popularity can deconstruct his arguments.
He's played the game. Got an advanced copy. They got two other writers writing about the controversy and the indoctrintion theory.
#160
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 05:56
kbct
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MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
YohkoOhno wrote...
Honestly, Erik seems like Slashdot's JonKatz--a blogger who got a reputation on Slashdot for misunderstanding the Geek community. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JonKatz
Unlike the other Forbes writer who actually covers video games, he seems more fascinated by the protest than the actual game. He probably supports this because of Internet activism. I'm hoping somebody else with a lot of popularity can deconstruct his arguments.
He's played the game. Got an advanced copy. They got two other writers writing about the controversy and the indoctrintion theory.
I love it when someone has facts.
#161
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 05:57
MissMaster_2
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I love that Forbes keeps calling them out.
#162
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 06:17
huyster1
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This article is spot on. I need criticism in my line of work in order to improve. I can't stand it when someone tells me I did a good job because I know that there's always room for improvement. I need to hear what I messed up on and how I can avoid those mistakes the next time. No way will I tell anyone how talented and proud I am after they point out some flaws. You can only improve with a little humility and less pride.
#163
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 06:22
kbct
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huyster1 wrote...
I can't stand it when someone tells me I did a good job because I know that there's always room for improvement.
The world is full of yes-men.
It's always nice to hear from someone that doesn't have a conflict of interest. It tends to be more honest.
Modifié par kbct, 22 mars 2012 - 06:22 .
#164
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 06:38
Mr. Gogeta34
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Wow guys, I didn't expect so many people to support this article.
To those that don't... FYI... the only thing being attacked is the actual statement given by R. Ray Muzyka.... not Dr. Muzyka himself, and not his company.
@Those defending Bioware's actions so far... if they actually did something substantial and direct (instead of being ambiguous and dismissive), they'd take a lot less flak. Why wait until more people play the game to say anything about it? It doesn't make sense... unless they're afraid the news would actually hurt sales.
To those that don't... FYI... the only thing being attacked is the actual statement given by R. Ray Muzyka.... not Dr. Muzyka himself, and not his company.
@Those defending Bioware's actions so far... if they actually did something substantial and direct (instead of being ambiguous and dismissive), they'd take a lot less flak. Why wait until more people play the game to say anything about it? It doesn't make sense... unless they're afraid the news would actually hurt sales.
Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 mars 2012 - 06:39 .
#165
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 06:50
abaris
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Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
@Those defending Bioware's actions so far... if they actually did something substantial and direct (instead of being ambiguous and dismissive), they'd take a lot less flak. Why wait until more people play the game to say anything about it? It doesn't make sense... unless they're afraid the news would actually hurt sales.
Yeah, and that's it.
I'm always surprised at so many people asking a business to acknowledge any mistake the moment it is made.
It's OK and necessary to keep up pressure, but it's totally unrealistic to expect any substantial statement at this time. A business isn't a bunch of individuals being able to speak their minds. It's more like a hive and the hivemind has yet to evaluate the options.
#167
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 07:36
Oldbones2
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Actually no. A business is nothing like a hive mind. Bioware is a privately owned company. They are not consulting shareholders on this matter.
There is not board of investors. The company has a clear chain of command. And if Ray Muzyka is releasing statements, then they've had enough time to gather data on the release.
The fact that they are still not giving us answers is just another stall tactic to make this problem go away.
I'm not saying give us a free DLC right now. Nor am I saying we should get a DLC at all (though I would like one) I am saying that enough time has passed. Bioware should tell us what we can expect, maybe not when, certainly not specifics, but as a generality what will happen next.
Will they change the endings to reflect the consumers demands or not?
There is not board of investors. The company has a clear chain of command. And if Ray Muzyka is releasing statements, then they've had enough time to gather data on the release.
The fact that they are still not giving us answers is just another stall tactic to make this problem go away.
I'm not saying give us a free DLC right now. Nor am I saying we should get a DLC at all (though I would like one) I am saying that enough time has passed. Bioware should tell us what we can expect, maybe not when, certainly not specifics, but as a generality what will happen next.
Will they change the endings to reflect the consumers demands or not?
#168
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 07:43
abaris
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Oldbones2 wrote...
Actually no. A business is nothing like a hive mind. Bioware is a privately owned company. They are not consulting shareholders on this matter.
Has been. Now they're EA. And EA isn't privately owned.
#169
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 07:48
Michael_Patty
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I actually thought Dr. Muzyka's response was quite good. It held considerably more hope for a DLC wrap up than Casey's somewhat less than informative attempt (sorry, Casey, love ya, man...but that really didn't tell us much).
Of COURSE he praised his team. That's what good leaders do, keep up the team morale and praise their positive achievements. But, thankfully, that's not ALL the good doctor did. He also told us how the team is scouring OUR comments looking for ways to give us resolution (*caugh* DLC *cough*).
And lastly, yes, he called all the rude, negative commenters out. He's right. That kind of thing ISN'T constructive. Hating never is. Want improvements? Want fixes? Want resolution that makes you feel more complete with the story? Ask nicely. Suggest politely. Discuss coherently. The people he called out deserved to be called out. Everybody just seemed to jump on the "hate-on-BioWare" bandwagon. First time they don't produce an ending that we like and BAM, they're now on our s**t-list? What gives? Give them some forgiveness, people. They've more than earned it from YEARS of great games.
Of COURSE he praised his team. That's what good leaders do, keep up the team morale and praise their positive achievements. But, thankfully, that's not ALL the good doctor did. He also told us how the team is scouring OUR comments looking for ways to give us resolution (*caugh* DLC *cough*).
And lastly, yes, he called all the rude, negative commenters out. He's right. That kind of thing ISN'T constructive. Hating never is. Want improvements? Want fixes? Want resolution that makes you feel more complete with the story? Ask nicely. Suggest politely. Discuss coherently. The people he called out deserved to be called out. Everybody just seemed to jump on the "hate-on-BioWare" bandwagon. First time they don't produce an ending that we like and BAM, they're now on our s**t-list? What gives? Give them some forgiveness, people. They've more than earned it from YEARS of great games.
Modifié par Michael_Patty, 22 mars 2012 - 08:08 .
#171
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 07:54
SalsaDMA
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Michael_Patty wrote...
Want improvements? Want fixes? Want resolution that makes you feel more complete with the story? Ask nicely. Suggest politely. Discuss coherently. The people he called out deserved to be called out. Everybody just seemed to jump on the "hate-on-BioWare" bandwagon. First time they don't produce an ending that we like and BAM, they're now on our s**t-list? What gives? Give them some forgiveness, people. They've more than earned it from YEARS of great games.
Do you really believe something would have happened if all people did was 'asking nicely' ?
They are acting because they see a potential loss of revenue in the works, not because some people asked nicely.
#172
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 07:57
kbct
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Michael_Patty wrote...
I actually though Dr. Muzyka's response was quite good.
I liked it better than Hudson's comments, but he didn't commit to anything:
"Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey."
And then the tweet:
"Both Casey and Ray's statements say we will release additional content to address questions, not necessarily alter anything."
I don't think many people want the colors and the god-child more clearly explained.
#173
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 07:58
DatIrishFella
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MissMaster_2 wrote...
I love that Forbes keeps calling them out.
Someone has too. You won't get honesty like that from IGN or Gamespot. Fair play to them.
#174
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 07:58
abaris
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SalsaDMA wrote...
They are acting because they see a potential loss of revenue in the works, not because some people asked nicely.
Exactly. That's the only language business understands: Money.
#175
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 08:16
Michael_Patty
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SalsaDMA wrote...
Do you really believe something would have happened if all people did was 'asking nicely' ?
They are acting because they see a potential loss of revenue in the works, not because some people asked nicely.
Yes. I do. Unlike you, I trust BioWare, and believe they really DO listen to us. I have lost count of the number of changes/additions they have made to the game because of fan input. And if you look, you'll see that the fans they listened to are the ones that asked nicely.
So, numbers? Certainly. The more people say a thing, the more likely BioWare is to do something about it. But being rude, harsh and demanding about it did nothing but put BioWare on the defensive. If ALL of the commentors are of that ilk, then they can feel justified in just ignoring them. Everyone should know that. It's business psychology 101, also known as "how to get a corporation to listen to what you have to say."
Fortunately for us all, not everyone said it so badly. And it was the fact that the reasonable fans were also expressing issues (albeit more politely) that finally made BioWare take notice. Not the other way around.
kbct wrote...
I liked it better than Hudson's comments, but he didn't commit to anything:
Of course he didn't. That would just dig them even DEEPER into the "promises not kept" situation. Call them what you want, but stupid they ain't.
Modifié par Michael_Patty, 22 mars 2012 - 08:21 .
