209 réponses à ce sujet

[Michael_Patty]

[Deleted by author]

Modifié par Michael_Patty, 22 mars 2012 - 08:19 .

[Texansamurai]

"I’ll say it again: the point of criticism is not to improve you, but to express me. And each time I digress to offer you helpful suggestions, encouraging remarks and other pep-talk, I am not truly expressing myself."

Beautiful quote. Thanks for the wonderful article

[DaJe]

The PLC wrote...

All the complaining and ****ty attitudes has reached a point, where I don't even know why Bioware bothers to reply. Grow up.

Usually those who spout "Grow up." are younger than they pretend to be.

One thing you should learn is that widespread protest brings positiv change. EA and Bioware are going down a treacherous path. This is just another step where the players give them clear signs of what they need to do and what not. Ignoring those signs again will only hurt them in the long run, because without a player base they are nothing.

DA2 was a complete failure that damaged the franchise and name of Bioware in many ways and even inflated perfect ratings from journalists who don't represent those who buy games wont change that ME3 might sell decent but not nearly as good as it could have if it wasn't for decisions that abandon their core audience and one controversy of their dishonest and shamefull business practices after another.

What they are doing is damaging their brand name and there is only so much reputation to destroy.

[Oldbones2]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

CerberusSoldier wrote...

Forbes once again is doing the job of the games media . Oh wait the games media is bought and paid for by companies like EA.

You only praise it because it agrees with you. It has bias to one side or another which invalidates it as respectable as far as I am concerned. A respectable publication does not take sides. It states facts and not assumptions especially not what they "think" something means when the only person who knows what they mean is the person saying it. Then again it is a blog article which means the writer has no more valid an opinion than you do or me so maybe I should not be so harsh.

And many Pro enders only praise IGN or Gamestop becuase they agree with them.

Frankly IGN and Co. has been downright offensive in their attacks against Retakers. 

Maybe Forbes is biased (I am inclined to believe that they are), maybe they aren't but at least they have some class and respect when they make their arguments.  As opposed to simply calling anyone who disagrees entitled whiners and obsessed fanboys. 

And for the record even if they are biased (again I think that they are) at least they still give both sides of the issue a little coverage. 

I'm still waiting for IGN's article supporting Retakers.  I expect I'll have to keep waiting.

[Mister Mida]

As an artist myself, I agree. If I want feedback, I want honest feedback, not tempered by fear of pissing me off. Because when I'm pissed off because of feedback, I'll actually start thinking about it.

I think Bioware got used to people putting them on pedestals that they forgot how to take criticism that's brutally honest and tells it how it is.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 22 mars 2012 - 08:44 .

[Michael_Patty]

DaJe wrote...

One thing you should learn is that widespread protest brings positiv change. EA and Bioware are going down a treacherous path. This is just another step where the players give them clear signs of what they need to do and what not. Ignoring those signs again will only hurt them in the long run, because without a player base they are nothing.

DA2 was a complete failure that damaged the franchise and name of Bioware in many ways and even inflated perfect ratings from journalists who don't represent those who buy games wont change that ME3 might sell decent but not nearly as good as it could have if it wasn't for decisions that abandon their core audience and one controversy of their dishonest and shamefull business practices after another.

What they are doing is damaging their brand name and there is only so much reputation to destroy.

All quite possibly true. But I still say POSITIVE suggestions and requests get more play. Martin Luther King Jr. did FAR more to bring the cause of racial justice to the mainstream (where it needed to be for change) than Malcolm X ever did. That's because he used positive feedback, not negative feedback. Negative feedback only engenders more of the same in return.

Modifié par Michael_Patty, 22 mars 2012 - 08:46 .

[Silicon Drifter 82]

Mister Mida wrote...

As an artist myself, I agree. If I want feedback, I want honest feedback, not tempered by fear of pissing me off. Because when I'm pissed off because of feedback, I'll actually start thinking about it.

I think Bioware got used to people putting them on pedestals that they forgot how to take criticism that's brutally honest and tells it how it is.

Truth!

[kbct]

Mister Mida wrote...

If I want feedback, I want honest feedback, not tempered by fear of pissing me off. Because when I'm pissed off because of feedback, I'll actually start thinking about it.

Good point.

[RiouHotaru]

People seem to think that "brutal, tactless honesty" is the same thing as "constructive criticism"

No. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Texansamurai]

As a music/song writer I actually respond better to destructive criticism because I know what needs to be fixed more based on the amount of raw/harsh energy that is placed into the particular thing they do not like.

[Oldbones2]

RiouHotaru wrote...

People seem to think that "brutal, tactless honesty" is the same thing as "constructive criticism"

No. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Yes, its much better for everyone if we write a page of pandering and sidestepping, slip a little information into the middle and never really say anything.  That's helpful.

Look, I'm no artist, but I do work, and I do receive feedback from clients about the job I do.

I don't like getting yelled at any more than anyone else.  But its pretty hard for me to do something different for my clients if they won't tell me EXACTLY whats wrong and what they want.  They don't have to yell, but brutal tactless honesty isn't that bad.  Frankly if they are being honest and I come out feeling REALLY bad, then I'm probably doing something so wrong that they should be yelling at me.

[Icinix]

Mister Mida wrote...

As an artist myself, I agree. If I want feedback, I want honest feedback, not tempered by fear of pissing me off. Because when I'm pissed off because of feedback, I'll actually start thinking about it.

I think Bioware got used to people putting them on pedestals that they forgot how to take criticism that's brutally honest and tells it how it is.

Thank you.

This is bang on.

[JulienJaden]

The PLC wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

@The PLC, you may think this is childish and that Erik is a jerk...

but I personally don't want the industry to follow in Bioware's footsteps on this one... so...

Let the bashing contine...

I don't want game companies to work on extra ending because of annoying fans either.

This may be off-topic, but: Do you seriously like the state the industry is in, with most triple A titles not being worth their money, the reviewers giving bad games ridiculously high scores and stuff like that? I've been playing video games since I was 4 and I am terrified by how things are going. The only company that really cares for quality anymore is Blizzard (and it's a pity they and Activision aren't the saints of the industry when comes to several other things).

I'd rather have BioWare work on extra endings for WHATEVER reason and hold them to their promises than have them sink into the cesspool so many other companies are already sitting in.
I want them to realize we want quality, not something half-assed. There's enough of that already. And I'm not buying that stuff, either.

[slimgrin]

Icinix wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

As an artist myself, I agree. If I want feedback, I want honest feedback, not tempered by fear of pissing me off. Because when I'm pissed off because of feedback, I'll actually start thinking about it.

I think Bioware got used to people putting them on pedestals that they forgot how to take criticism that's brutally honest and tells it how it is.

Thank you.

This is bang on.

Reminds me of boxing. When a fighter eventually gets surrounded by yes men, no one dares offer criticism. This is why I get the sense Bioware is really out to impress the critcs, not the fans. Afterall, that's what potentially sells the most games now.

Modifié par slimgrin, 22 mars 2012 - 09:46 .

[xsdob]

Eric Kain needs to separate his professional life from his forum life, this type of undue criticism is what gets people fired in the professional world. The rest of his articles are fine because they don't seem to have the bias against them that he has with bioware.

But being a contributor to forbes, I can see how he can get away with it, since he is mostly an opinion and off the wall topic journalist. As long as he doesn't go too far into the fanrage and start saying libel things about bioware, than there should be no problem.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

xsdob wrote...

Eric Kain needs to separate his professional life from his forum life, this type of undue criticism is what gets people fired in the professional world.

What do you think Forbes is... exactly?  Part of the "unprofessional" world?

[RiouHotaru]

Oldbones2 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

People seem to think that "brutal, tactless honesty" is the same thing as "constructive criticism"

No. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Yes, its much better for everyone if we write a page of pandering and sidestepping, slip a little information into the middle and never really say anything.  That's helpful.

Look, I'm no artist, but I do work, and I do receive feedback from clients about the job I do.

I don't like getting yelled at any more than anyone else.  But its pretty hard for me to do something different for my clients if they won't tell me EXACTLY whats wrong and what they want.  They don't have to yell, but brutal tactless honesty isn't that bad.  Frankly if they are being honest and I come out feeling REALLY bad, then I'm probably doing something so wrong that they should be yelling at me.

Actually, yes it is bad.

"The ending sucks!" is brutual, tactless honesty, and does nothing to help figure out why it's bad or how it could be changed.

"The endings were disappointing because (insert reasons here)" is constructive, because not only is it calm and rational, it clearly states the why, and sometimes the how.

[Mister Mida]

RiouHotaru wrote...

"The ending sucks!" is brutual, tactless honesty, and does nothing to help figure out why it's bad or how it could be changed.

"The endings were disappointing because (insert reasons here)" is constructive, because not only is it calm and rational, it clearly states the why, and sometimes the how.

'The ending sucks because <insert argument here>' is just as valid (or maybe even more) as saying 'The ending is disappointing because <insert argument here>'. You're using very selective wording in your statement to support your argument.

Good critcism is me expressing myself, not me helping you.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 22 mars 2012 - 10:17 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

No middle ground?

"And then MY FREAKING SQUADMATE SHOWED UP!? HOW THE *expletive* *Expletive* *epletive* ON THE FREAKING NORMANDY *expletive* *expletive* COMPLETELY UNHARMED!? SERIOUSLY!!?!? BIWOARE eh Teh Sukszars!! *Expletive*"

Would you call that "Constructive Criticism"?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 mars 2012 - 10:18 .

[RiouHotaru]

Mister Mida wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

"The ending sucks!" is brutual, tactless honesty, and does nothing to help figure out why it's bad or how it could be changed.

"The endings were disappointing because (insert reasons here)" is constructive, because not only is it calm and rational, it clearly states the why, and sometimes the how.

'The ending sucks because <insert argument here>' is just as valid (or maybe even more) as saying 'The ending is disappointing because <insert argument here>'. You're using very selective wording in your statement to support your argument.

Good critcism is me expressing myself, not me helping you.

You're right, I just used disappointing instead of "sucks", but the two are interchangable.

But that doesn't change the fact that one is clearly unhelpful and destructive, and the other is not.

[Mister Mida]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

'The ending sucks because <insert argument here>' is just as valid (or maybe even more) as saying 'The ending is disappointing because <insert argument here>'. You're using very selective wording in your statement to support your argument.

Good critcism is me expressing myself, not me helping you.

You're right, I just used disappointing instead of "sucks", but the two are interchangable.

But that doesn't change the fact that one is clearly unhelpful and destructive, and the other is not.

As I said earlier, if I get  criticism towards my work that is unbound and not limited by fear of making me angry and I'll get pissed off, I'll remember those criticisms longer than those that are handed to me with kitten gloves. Of course those criticism need to have arguments, or else they're just opinions. And opinions are like air, they're everywhere.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 22 mars 2012 - 10:29 .

[xsdob]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Eric Kain needs to separate his professional life from his forum life, this type of undue criticism is what gets people fired in the professional world.

What do you think Forbes is... exactly?  Part of the "unprofessional" world?

Opinion pieces are given a lot more slack than professional pieces, that's how people can so or wtire things that some would consider inflamatory and get away with it. He's a writer who works semi-freelance and writes on a topic forbes doesn't really care about, so unless he writes an accusation such as "bioware is guilty of false advertisment" or "bioware purposly extorted it's fans" than anything he says is fine.

[DVZ]

According to the Bioware corporate dictionary, "constructive criticism" = praising the company's artistic vision; "destructive criticism" = arguing contrary to the company's artistic vision. Honestly, the good Doctor's statement smacks of "We're entitled to listen to only the good feedback because we're producing art." No, you're not. You're producing a service. And a large number of your paying customers are extremely dissatisfied with an aspect of the product you can fix. So quit producing fancy PR essays and just do it already.

[Insane_Ivan]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

No middle ground?

"And then MY FREAKING SQUADMATE SHOWED UP!? HOW THE *expletive* *Expletive* *epletive* ON THE FREAKING NORMANDY *expletive* *expletive* COMPLETELY UNHARMED!? SERIOUSLY!!?!? BIWOARE eh Teh Sukszars!! *Expletive*"

Would you call that "Constructive Criticism"?

So you picked on that one guy to give as a broad example to all of us?

Agreed that what he said was a little over the top but don't compare us all to that person.

-Hold The Line

[Oldbones2]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

People seem to think that "brutal, tactless honesty" is the same thing as "constructive criticism"

No. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Yes, its much better for everyone if we write a page of pandering and sidestepping, slip a little information into the middle and never really say anything.  That's helpful.

Look, I'm no artist, but I do work, and I do receive feedback from clients about the job I do.

I don't like getting yelled at any more than anyone else.  But its pretty hard for me to do something different for my clients if they won't tell me EXACTLY whats wrong and what they want.  They don't have to yell, but brutal tactless honesty isn't that bad.  Frankly if they are being honest and I come out feeling REALLY bad, then I'm probably doing something so wrong that they should be yelling at me.

Actually, yes it is bad.

"The ending sucks!" is brutual, tactless honesty, and does nothing to help figure out why it's bad or how it could be changed.

"The endings were disappointing because (insert reasons here)" is constructive, because not only is it calm and rational, it clearly states the why, and sometimes the how.

Actually saying the ending sucks and nothing else really just venting.  It's not enough to help but its also not what I mean by pandering and sidestepping.

Your statement of the endings were disapointing becuase ...

Is actually lessening the blow and that is pandering. 

The endings do (IMO) suck.  They have many problems.  So how do you write that?

The endings suck.  They didn't fulfill any promised made.  I don't like the fact that I have all my choices taken away at the last second.  How come none of my previous decisions impact the end.  This was an epic fail.

Note that while my sample critique is overly negative and passionate, it also reflects exactly how I felt.  It also describes different aspects of the ending I found lacking.  It doesn't direct the the anger or emotion at its creators.  Merely at the content.  It doesn't assign any blame.

Is is harsh?  Very much so.  However it conveys my feelings in a concise manner that also highlights the specifics I don't like, while reflecting the amount of disapointment/anger/other emotion that I feel.

THAT is a brutal somewhat tactless honesty.  And it is perfectly appropriate to use.