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[Mobius-Silent]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shepard is holding his left side when he is with Anderson on the Citadel. Not his right side.

He could have some cracked ribs or internal bleeding and that would be why he would hold his right side. He doesn't actually bleed from his left side until after Anderson dies.

Actually, in this scene both of shepards hands are covered in slick blood, then the blood effect dissapears, It's just a hacky attempt to remind you that Shep is badly injured.

BatmanTurian wrote... 

Actually they are representive of people who have Reapertech, which indoctrinates especially once present in the body. The Illusive man was exposed to an indoctrination artifact in Mass Effect: Evolution. Saren and his brother are also indoctrinated by the same object. TIM get's his eyes (which are difinitively reaper tech; husks have them) from a glancing surge of power from the artifact after pulling his friend Ben Hislop from the artifact. It's already too late for Ben though because Ben is turned into a Husk. Saren's eyes, and actually almost all of him, were already synthetic on Eden Prime, when he was already indoctrinated. Saren's eyes are also Reapertech eyes.

 

Not all reapertech is capable of indoctrination _many_ bits of tech have been analysed and re-used without problem. The indoctrination boosters in MP illustrate the expected minimum size for an indoctrination-capable device.

The Arca Monolith was a _conversion_ device that produced troops that were under direct control, it could _also_ indoctrinate to encourage organics to bring others and/or touch the device (and thus initiate conversion) Harper got the implants (That are nothing like a husk's eyes, or Saren's) as a tiny portion of the conversion process, the tech was reverse engineered and thus we see it used in EVA/EDI's chassis and the eye implants used on Shepard. Harper had them for over 20 years without being indoctrinated, only much later does he gather enough Reaper tech to damn himself.

BatmanTurian wrote...  
With very statement you make, you and this girl show you have no idea what you are talking about and haven't been paying attention to the codex or the story. Shepard is exposed to Object Rho, which is an indoctrination device. This indoctrination device has indoctrinated not only the scientists studying it but also the soldiers protecting them. Harbinger can control indoctrinated subjects from  deep space, by evidence of the Collectors in ME2. The same glow used to show Harbinger's control of Dr. Kenson. Also, Harbinger has repeatedly shown an obsession with Shepard and has said repeatedly that he desires Shepard's mind aka he wants to control Shepard. 

Object Rho _can_ indoctrinate, it's primary purpous is to provide the extra power and range to the Alpha relay and act as a QEC channel for the Reapers to communicate. Shep is removed from the immediate infulence of the device for the 2 days he/she's there (The med bay). No reason to assume even attempted indoctrination at this stage.

The Collectors _started_ as indoctrinated slaves, by the time we see them they are under direct control via their implants and hive-connection to the collector general.

BatmanTurian wrote...   
Please do your research before trying to argue against IT. This stuff is in the videos and blogs referenced in the first page of the indoctrination thread. Blind hate without informationt to back it up is ignorant bigotry.

Hahah, hilarious... "bigotry"! Oh man that's funny.

There is no need to argue _against_ I.T. as it is defacto _false_ given that there is not reason to believe it is intended that doesn't fall foul of occam's razor, not a single item of the provided assumptions, suppositions, falsehoods stands up to even the slightest scrutiny. It's fine and dandy headcannon, I'm happy you love it, but intended by bioware? Not a chance.

I'll be back after the E.C. it will he hilarious, truly hilarious.

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote... 

Actually they are representive of people who have Reapertech, which indoctrinates especially once present in the body. The Illusive man was exposed to an indoctrination artifact in Mass Effect: Evolution. Saren and his brother are also indoctrinated by the same object. TIM get's his eyes (which are difinitively reaper tech; husks have them) from a glancing surge of power from the artifact after pulling his friend Ben Hislop from the artifact. It's already too late for Ben though because Ben is turned into a Husk. Saren's eyes, and actually almost all of him, were already synthetic on Eden Prime, when he was already indoctrinated. Saren's eyes are also Reapertech eyes.

 

Not all reapertech is capable of indoctrination _many_ bits of tech have been analysed and re-used without problem. The indoctrination boosters in MP illustrate the expected minimum size for an indoctrination-capable device.

The Arca Monolith was a _conversion_ device that produced troops that were under direct control, it could _also_ indoctrinate to encourage organics to bring others and/or touch the device (and thus initiate conversion) Harper got the implants (That are nothing like a husk's eyes, or Saren's) as a tiny portion of the conversion process, the tech was reverse engineered and thus we see it used in EVA/EDI's chassis and the eye implants used on Shepard. Harper had them for over 20 years without being indoctrinated, only much later does he gather enough Reaper tech to damn himself.

BatmanTurian wrote...  
With very statement you make, you and this girl show you have no idea what you are talking about and haven't been paying attention to the codex or the story. Shepard is exposed to Object Rho, which is an indoctrination device. This indoctrination device has indoctrinated not only the scientists studying it but also the soldiers protecting them. Harbinger can control indoctrinated subjects from  deep space, by evidence of the Collectors in ME2. The same glow used to show Harbinger's control of Dr. Kenson. Also, Harbinger has repeatedly shown an obsession with Shepard and has said repeatedly that he desires Shepard's mind aka he wants to control Shepard. 

Object Rho _can_ indoctrinate, it's primary purpous is to provide the extra power and range to the Alpha relay and act as a QEC channel for the Reapers to communicate. Shep is removed from the immediate infulence of the device for the 2 days he/she's there (The med bay). No reason to assume even attempted indoctrination at this stage.

The Collectors _started_ as indoctrinated slaves, by the time we see them they are under direct control via their implants and hive-connection to the collector general.

TIM was indoctrinated on Shanxi. Him having a strong mind and isolating himself, therefore not coming into contact with Reaper tech helps him resist it so long.

Everyone who came into contact with the Shanxi artifact, and Object Rho became indoctrinated (except Shepard?)

[KingZayd]

Demyx_IX wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Demyx_IX wrote...

I will point out some of my arguments, take some points from sources, as well as doing what you asked. Mostly the latter. First I would like to say that the Indoctrination done by the reapers are not enforcing illusions, dreams or otherwise similar things. It's only been shown to control people's actions, but even though they are controlled, the things that happen are real. 

Read the codex entry.

"
hallucinations of "ghostly" presences "

This doesn't support the IT very well. Everything you saw after Shepard went up to the Citadel were just 'ghostly pressences'? That doesn't make any sense. And this wiki section mentions nothing of dreams. Shepard wasn't dreaming, the ending is reality. Let's face it, the IT is just a means for people who couldn't get over the real ending. 

dreams: 
http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s 
also in Arrival there is a description of the dreams.

[ioannisdenton]

i want to IT come true though i doubt it and i do not beleive in it. it is our only hope.
ecerything else is a mess

[hanshotfirs]

I personally believe it, though I know that Bioware did not intend it for the ending. I chose destroy (every day and twice on Sunday!) and IT is really the only thing that makes sense to me. I have my own head canon, but IT is, to me, the only thing that explains the lazy cop-out writing for the ending.

But to each their own, believe it, don't believe it, use certain parts of it... speculation for everyone!

[Mobius-Silent]

KingZayd wrote...

TIM was indoctrinated on Shanxi. Him having a strong mind and isolating himself, therefore not coming into contact with Reaper tech helps him resist it so long.

Everyone who came into contact with the Shanxi artifact, and Object Rho became indoctrinated (except Shepard?)

Saren seemed pretty independant throughout "Mass Effect: Revelation", I'd say you have no evidence to suggest that he or TIM were indoctrinated at that stage.

And 29 years? good going TIM? Nice idea, but we have no reason to accept that, it's yet another "If x _and_ y _and_ z _and_ aleph _and_ phi then it's possible Shepard was indoctrinated"

Of course its possible... it's just not likely and it certainly wasn't intended by Bioware. It's fine and dandy headcannon for those who like such things. Some people love Buffy/Star Trek crossovers, some people like MLP/WH40k crossovers, some people like I.T. there's room for all kinds of fanfic

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 19 juin 2012 - 03:23 .

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

TIM was indoctrinated on Shanxi. Him having a strong mind and isolating himself, therefore not coming into contact with Reaper tech helps him resist it so long.

Everyone who came into contact with the Shanxi artifact, and Object Rho became indoctrinated (except Shepard?)

Saren seemed pretty independant throughout "Mass Effect: Revelation", I'd say you have no evidence to suggest that he or TIM were indoctrinated at that stage.

And 29 years? good going TIM? Nice idea, but we have no reason to accept that, it's yet another "If x _and_ y _and_ z _and_ aleph _and_ phi then it's possible Shepard was indoctrinated"

Of course its possible... it's just not likely and it certainly wasn't intended by Bioware. It's fine and dandy headcannon for those who like such things. Some people love Buffy/Star Trek crossovers, some people like MLP/WH40k crossovers, some people like I.T. there's room for all kinds of fanfic

But Saren did end up indoctrinated didn't he? Of the survivors who came into contact with the artifact, Saren had the least exposure. He would probably have ended up with the lowest level of indoctrination. His actions at that point would still be pretty much his own. Just like TIM's were.

When did TIM get indoctrinated then? What Reaper tech indoctrinated in the lead up to ME3? He kept himself isolated. He never interacted with Reaper tech directly, and he was well aware of the dangers involved.

Modifié par KingZayd, 19 juin 2012 - 04:51 .

[Applepie_Svk]

It´s not about like or hate but about what give a greater sense, you could say that:
I hate IT because it means that game is unfinished.
I hate ending because game is unfinished and also hate IT because it´s a crap.

I love ending and hate IT because it ruin an artistic..
I love IT and hate ending because IT was probably developed by players and it´s better than what we recieved...

I do and don´t like IT because it means that we recieved rushed and unfinished product.
I don´t like ending because it´s in conflict with whole series.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 19 juin 2012 - 04:53 .

[Zardoc]

I like the IT as a theory to what could be done to salvage the ending we have. I do not like people who say the IT was always planned by BioWare, people who'd rather cling to an illusion than accept the cold hard fact that their beloved game developer simply royally screwed up Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Zardoc, 19 juin 2012 - 05:17 .

[Etereoooo]

It's bad. Not as bad as the ending but still not good at all. And in 2 of the 3 version you are still on heart, so the game is not finished.
Also this 3d is about if you LIKE the I.T. ending, not if you BELIVE it. There are 999 topics about that.

Modifié par Etereoooo, 19 juin 2012 - 05:21 .

[Carlthestrange]

I refuse to clutch at straws. But i'll see what Bioware can come up with.

[LeCavalier]

It really is the only way that the endings make sense for me. The endings are just so bizarre.

[darkshadow136]

No.

[darkiddd]

TheDragonPrincess wrote...

So, do you like it?
I definetly hate it! I don't want my Shepard to be a sleeper agent for the reapers!
If BioWare will use that in ME3 new dlc ending I'm so not buying it!
And if Shep will die in dlc ending I don't buy it!

Spoilers ahead sorry...
And sorry. I'm Finn so my english isn't great and I didn't know what No Spoilers ment. (I know it now)

You haven't understood what the IT is about. 

In short Shepard isn't indoctrinated. He is being indoctrinated and if you choose destroy he rejects the indoctrination attempt and wakes up ready to kick ass again, and that's what the extended content should offer if you believe in the IT.

[macrocarl]

YES! I do like it lots. And we'll have to see how it holds up after the EC.

[felipejiraya]

I like it but don't believe on it.

[BatmanTurian]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shepard is holding his left side when he is with Anderson on the Citadel. Not his right side.

He could have some cracked ribs or internal bleeding and that would be why he would hold his right side. He doesn't actually bleed from his left side until after Anderson dies.

Actually, in this scene both of shepards hands are covered in slick blood, then the blood effect dissapears, It's just a hacky attempt to remind you that Shep is badly injured.

BatmanTurian wrote... 

Actually they are representive of people who have Reapertech, which indoctrinates especially once present in the body. The Illusive man was exposed to an indoctrination artifact in Mass Effect: Evolution. Saren and his brother are also indoctrinated by the same object. TIM get's his eyes (which are difinitively reaper tech; husks have them) from a glancing surge of power from the artifact after pulling his friend Ben Hislop from the artifact. It's already too late for Ben though because Ben is turned into a Husk. Saren's eyes, and actually almost all of him, were already synthetic on Eden Prime, when he was already indoctrinated. Saren's eyes are also Reapertech eyes.

 

Not all reapertech is capable of indoctrination _many_ bits of tech have been analysed and re-used without problem. The indoctrination boosters in MP illustrate the expected minimum size for an indoctrination-capable device.

The Arca Monolith was a _conversion_ device that produced troops that were under direct control, it could _also_ indoctrinate to encourage organics to bring others and/or touch the device (and thus initiate conversion) Harper got the implants (That are nothing like a husk's eyes, or Saren's) as a tiny portion of the conversion process, the tech was reverse engineered and thus we see it used in EVA/EDI's chassis and the eye implants used on Shepard. Harper had them for over 20 years without being indoctrinated, only much later does he gather enough Reaper tech to damn himself.

BatmanTurian wrote...  
With very statement you make, you and this girl show you have no idea what you are talking about and haven't been paying attention to the codex or the story. Shepard is exposed to Object Rho, which is an indoctrination device. This indoctrination device has indoctrinated not only the scientists studying it but also the soldiers protecting them. Harbinger can control indoctrinated subjects from  deep space, by evidence of the Collectors in ME2. The same glow used to show Harbinger's control of Dr. Kenson. Also, Harbinger has repeatedly shown an obsession with Shepard and has said repeatedly that he desires Shepard's mind aka he wants to control Shepard. 

Object Rho _can_ indoctrinate, it's primary purpous is to provide the extra power and range to the Alpha relay and act as a QEC channel for the Reapers to communicate. Shep is removed from the immediate infulence of the device for the 2 days he/she's there (The med bay). No reason to assume even attempted indoctrination at this stage.

The Collectors _started_ as indoctrinated slaves, by the time we see them they are under direct control via their implants and hive-connection to the collector general.

BatmanTurian wrote...   
Please do your research before trying to argue against IT. This stuff is in the videos and blogs referenced in the first page of the indoctrination thread. Blind hate without informationt to back it up is ignorant bigotry.

Hahah, hilarious... "bigotry"! Oh man that's funny.

There is no need to argue _against_ I.T. as it is defacto _false_ given that there is not reason to believe it is intended that doesn't fall foul of occam's razor, not a single item of the provided assumptions, suppositions, falsehoods stands up to even the slightest scrutiny. It's fine and dandy headcannon, I'm happy you love it, but intended by bioware? Not a chance.

I'll be back after the E.C. it will he hilarious, truly hilarious.

You're in denial and misinformed even after I explained things to you and the other person I was responding to. I won't be laughing at you if IT is true because laughing at people for what they interpret in a story is immature. I respect your point of view, but this is different interpretations of a story we're talking about, not politics or religion.

[Bill Casey]

[quote]Demyx_IX wrote...

I will point out some of my arguments, take some points from sources, as well as doing what you asked. Mostly the latter. First I would like to say that the Indoctrination done by the reapers are not enforcing illusions, dreams or otherwise similar things. It's only been shown to control people's actions, but even though they are controlled, the things that happen are real. [/quote]
Yes it is...
Reapers invade dreams...
Scientists and Guards in Arrival experience recurring nightmares of their loved ones being destroyed...

[quote]They say the boy is one of the biggest indicators that Shepard is indoctrinated. However this doesn't work as the boy represents Shepard's guilt as BioWare themselves has written, nothing more. People try to state why doesn't the ones at the scene help the little boy. But they were too busy worrying about the reapers so they didn't see him, if you don't see someone you won't help them.[/quote]
Instilling guilt is a prominent brainwashing technique...
As is sleep deprivation...

[quote]Guilt: You are bad. While the identity crisis is setting in, the agent
is simultaneously creating an overwhelming sense of guilt in the target.
He repeatedly and mercilessly attacks the subject for any "sin" the
target has committed, large or small. He may criticize the target for
everything from the "evilness" of his beliefs to the way he eats too
slowly. The target begins to feel a general sense of shame, that
everything he does is wrong.[/quote]

[quote]The shrumps/trees  is stated to not be there when you are running, but they're there-- it's not some illusion. They've always been there.[/quote]


[quote]Vega is sometimes saying he can hear a hum, they say this is one of the reasons why Shepard is indoctrinated. However there is a legitimate hum in the room. We can hear the hum, Vega can and Shepard can as well. There is a real hum down there. No indoctrinated people has hum'd, why would Shepard?[/quote]
Of course Shepard can hear the hum...
That's kind of the point...

I have never heard the theory that Shepard is humming...

[quote]The Illusive Man was interested in the control panel. The llusive Man was already indoctrinated when we got there. Most likely before even prior to that. The reapers simply didn't let him use the panel. It was no hallucination.[/quote]
The Illusive Man was already indoctrinated before Mass Effect 3...


Shepard: You've been spending too much time with the enemy. They're dragging you over to their side... their way of thinking.
Illusive Man: No, I just... see things differently...

[quote]It's stated by the IT that in reality he was never taken up to the Citadel when he was hit by the beam. That doesn't work. There is cinematics off the cruicible, the citadel arms opening up, Hackett talking, etc after Shepard went up there. Shepard imagining all this doesn't make any sense.[/quote]
According to an earlier part, everyone thinks Shepard is dead...

[quote]Shepard is holding his left side when he is with Anderson on the Citadel. Not his right side.[/quote]
Anderson is holding his left side...

[quote]The Illusive Man's eyes aren't representitive of people that has been indoctrinated. Or eyes like it. Saren never had his eyes changed even when it was completely clear that he was indoctrinated towards the end of the game.[/quote]
They are representative when Shepard gets them...
He has become the very thing he's been fighting against...

[quote]If the reapers had Shepard indoctrinated, they would never let him destroy them. Let alone even give him the oppurtunity.[/quote]
The Destroy option isn't real...
The point is psychological conditioning to make Shepard not want to Destroy the reapers...
They are bringing him over to their way of thinking...
[quote]In the Arrival DLC there was no mention or proof that Harbringer wanted to indoctrinate Shepard. And he was there as a hollagram, he obviously couldn't.[/quote]
"Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine."

[quote]The first symptom of indoctrination, weak or strong minded, is always hearing the voice of the reapers. (cause not being a PB, that doesn't count.) Shepard never had this symptom.[/quote]
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch

[quote]Prothean VI, Vendetta, has an ability to detect indoctrination and if it does detect it, it's programmed to guard information it has on the Crucible and Catalyst. Both on Thessia and Cronos it shares it's information with Shepard freely, and if the Indoctrination Theory is to be believed, reaper influence over Shepard should be stronger during the Cronos mission since indoctrination had become more advanced. VI is cooperating fully with Shepard and his team on both occasions. And on Cronos refers to Cerberus as "indoctrinated forces" ignoring Shepard's presence.[/quote]
Indoctrinated means your belief systems have been altered...
You are confusing psychological conditioning with being indoctrinated...

[quote]If you are to assume the IT is reality then it means the game effectively didn't even have an ending. There is no way BioWare would take a approach like the IT to the last game of the triology.[/quote]
Honestly, it's the most brilliant thing I've seen in a video game...
The audience has been indoctrinated...
We're fighting eachother instead of fighting the reapers...

They couldn't have done this if the ending was on the disc...
[quote]Shepard was really never near Harbringer long enough to be indoctrinated, even in the slightest. Shepard is incredibly strong willed. [/quote]
Nearly every crew member in Mass Effect 3 makes it a point to mention how Shepard is wearing down and everyone is worried about him...

[quote]As for the top comment on this page, I agree. If the IT is the truth (which it thankfully is not) then it would be even worse than the current endings. Even after the extended cut, I don't think I will like anything that has to do with the ending. Since it will just be a attempt to justify what happened. At least that is what I read. [/quote]
Screw you, ma'am...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 juin 2012 - 07:07 .

[LinksOcarina]

No, I don't like it.

But I am glad it exists, because it means the fans of Mass Effect 3 actually care enough to make their own canon to the game. That is a hallmark of something that is a pop culture touchstone that will live on twenty years down the line.

[Mobius-Silent]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...   
Please do your research before trying to argue against IT. This stuff is in the videos and blogs referenced in the first page of the indoctrination thread. Blind hate without informationt to back it up is ignorant bigotry.

Hahah, hilarious... "bigotry"! Oh man that's funny.

There is no need to argue _against_ I.T. as it is defacto _false_ given that there is not reason to believe it is intended that doesn't fall foul of occam's razor, not a single item of the provided assumptions, suppositions, falsehoods stands up to even the slightest scrutiny. It's fine and dandy headcannon, I'm happy you love it, but intended by bioware? Not a chance.

I'll be back after the E.C. it will he hilarious, truly hilarious.

You're in denial and misinformed even after I explained things to you and the other person I was responding to. I won't be laughing at you if IT is true because laughing at people for what they interpret in a story is immature. I respect your point of view, but this is different interpretations of a story we're talking about, not politics or religion.

I'm not laughing at you I'm laughing at the idea that not accepting your "evidence" was true and intended by Bioware constitutes "ignorant bigotry" (which is ridiculous)

So now we have information about the E.C. we know there will be no confirmation of I.T. hence all the supposed "evidence" was a complete fabrication on the part of I.T'ers.

This is important, because most of the people you so love to brand as "IT haters" (persecution complex much?) are simply people who realised that the "evidence" was unconvincing and those who _actually_ did the research found that it was simply false (The body pile nonsense, the dream trees, the breath scene _must_ be in london, the "mako" in the breath scene)

So here we are now. You were wrong, the people who were doubting you were right, your assertions were incorrect and your statements suggesting bigotry and/or ignorance were also wrong.

I'm not laughing, I just want an apology, you were rude and you were wrong.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 23 juin 2012 - 01:58 .

[StElmo]

Poll for you chaps: http://social.bioware.com/1968682/polls/35617/

Modifié par StElmo, 23 juin 2012 - 01:47 .

[Helios969]

I guess OP should change title to Did...

Seriously though, I thought it was interesting and had potential, but it's execution (like the current literal endings) was a failure.