271 réponses à ce sujet

[LMShepard]

The problem with Vent kid's explanation is that he expects us to just accept that it has happened and will happen again without any concrete examples of a precedent. Give me historical accounts of this happening so that we can understand the severity of the issue. Otherwise, My Shepard just made peace between Quarians and Geth and got has a human romancing an unshackled AI. In he context of the Mass Effect universe, I don't appreciate the certainty of his fate that Vent boy has projected...except for his Reapers wanting to harvest organics. This point/theme is just very poorly explained.

[blah64]

I'm willing to give BW the benefit of the doubt on this one. I can somewhat understand the logic, not that there aren't plenty of holes. If it were explained better bu the star-child then it would be easier to swallow. All that to the side, they could have done alot better.

[Mclouvins]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Reaper purpose should have been their reproduction as they deem any other races below them, thus their lives expense are inconsequential.

They shouldn't have been another cliche of, "this guy was actually a good guy" phrase.

Can you imagine if Darkspawn were suddenly revealed to be the Maker's solution for the problem of mage rights?

"It is inevitable that mages will rebel and kill everyone, so I came up with the Darkspawn to kill everyone first."

A better analogy would be the architect from one of the books I think where he wanted to unleash some magic that would basically put everyone through the joining, 1/2 might die but the rest would be able to understand the darkspawn and coexist with them, which was the goal of the reapers, preservation and coexistence at the expense of self-determination.

[piemanz]

Computron2000 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

Thing is, is that you do not need everyone on board. Just the vast majority. The said majority will regulate themselves much like how various nations insitute laws to regulate society.

Yea, and it works so well, how many wars are currently being waged right now on this planet alone?

The difference is that the in game laws i'm talking about are not to prevent wars. Its to prevent synthetics from running out of control as that is the stated reason for the entire Reaper solution. Sure you will have a criminal element attempting to break the law but it will not lead to large scale acceptance because people know the cost.

War doesn't work as an example because wars ignore laws because a law in Country X is not a law in Country Y and even if said laws are agreed internationally, whatever reason for war by one side or both always rides over the international law. Of course the aggressor who has no legitimate reason will always make up one and rationalise the whole thing away but those not involved tend to see though it.

An example i can think of, with respect to a law on synthetics, is murder in a society with law (anarchists need not apply). A murderer not only has the law enforcement after him, but anyone in the society who witnesses the murder will take action.

My point is that even here, one single planet not everyone agrees, and will actually go as far as to kill eachother en mass for their dissagreements. The chances that everyone will just agree to stop doing something on a galactic scale is absolute zero.

[jumpingkaede]

Mclouvins wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Reaper purpose should have been their reproduction as they deem any other races below them, thus their lives expense are inconsequential.

They shouldn't have been another cliche of, "this guy was actually a good guy" phrase.

Can you imagine if Darkspawn were suddenly revealed to be the Maker's solution for the problem of mage rights?

"It is inevitable that mages will rebel and kill everyone, so I came up with the Darkspawn to kill everyone first."

A better analogy would be the architect from one of the books I think where he wanted to unleash some magic that would basically put everyone through the joining, 1/2 might die but the rest would be able to understand the darkspawn and coexist with them, which was the goal of the reapers, preservation and coexistence at the expense of self-determination.

I'm tired of the mages and non-mages fighting.  If everyone was darkspawn they wouldn't fight each other.

I don't remember if that was the Architect's purpose.  I thought he was trying to make it so Darkspawn could resist the call of the dragons.  Then they'd be able to live their own lives instead of having the uh, whatever you called it when the... the Blight!

Dragon: "TIME FOR THE BLIGHT!!  LET'S GO BLIGHT THESE SUCKERS! BLIIIGGGGGHT!"

Darkspawn:  "Nah, I'm good."

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 22 mars 2012 - 05:24 .

[Kushan101]

The idea is rediculous, if the reapers are that concerned about organics creating synthetics and the synthetics wiping them out - then why don't they ONLY arrive when an organic species creates an AI species, wiping out the ones who made it; as well as the AI's they created, and then departing again. The whole idea of them wiping out "advanced" organics JUST IN CASE they develop synthetic life, is completely rediculous.

Not to mention the rehashed argument that not all AI's need be harmful (i.e. EDI and the Geth) - true AI will think like a person, it'll reach its own conclusions as well as its own system of morals. No different from an organic species. If this is the case, the Reapers should have wiped out the Krogan, the Yarg and the Rachni in the last cycle - they are all species which have the capability of wiping out all the others in the galaxy if left unchecked to develop advanced technology.

Edit: Not to mention that the ONLY organic species which have developed AI's in the ME universe are the humans and the Quarians. The Quarian ones turned out to be peaceful (once they were no longer the target of aggression) and the human one has turned out pretty well I would say (EDI). I've never seen any reference to the Salarians, Asari, Volus, Hanar, Elkor, Krogan, Rachni or Vorcha showing ANY intererest in developing an AI. Why wipe all them out too?

Modifié par Kushan101, 22 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[jumpingkaede]

blah64 wrote...

I'm willing to give BW the benefit of the doubt on this one. I can somewhat understand the logic, not that there aren't plenty of holes. If it were explained better bu the star-child then it would be easier to swallow. All that to the side, they could have done alot better.

If that was their purpose all long it could've been foreshadowed better.  Maybe Jahvik earlier on in ME1 talking about how the Protheans were almost undone by transhumans.  Or Liara mentioning something about the Geth being similar to things happening in previous cycles.

That would help.  Maybe make the Geth less sympathetic too.  Have a majority of them, instead of a minority, join Sovereign to wipe out organics.

[webrakefornobody]

CarolSephard wrote...

You can teach the dog instead of killing it ^^

or don't get another one, after the police shot the first one that tried to kill you.


it makes absolutely NO sense and even contradicts the course of events set in the games, especially in ME3. the geth didn't start the war, organics did. the geth spared the very same organics that wanted to eradicate them, when they had the chance to wipe them out. and the geth are not cold calculating machines that would kill all organics because they see no point in them (as Javik seems to believe) - as Legion says in ME3, when talking about emotions and hope: "we admire that concept".
hell, there's even a human - synthetic couple in ME3.

if spacechild was a sociopathic organic supremacist, then it would make sense (somehow), but he isn't - he's a godlike AI/VI/Machine that argues with logic, but actually there is none to be found.

[o Ventus]

Mixorz wrote...

defenestrated wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

Wrong. 

Created will rebel against creators. Whether it was the Quarians fault or not, the Geth began killing the Quarians. EDI started out as a rogue AI. The catalyst wasn't wrong.

You've got that backwards. Quarians started killing Geth, Geth defended themselves. They didn't want to kill Quarians. We learn in ME3 they even still honor the Quarians who defended them during the first war.

And they certainly weren't out to kill all organic life in the galaxy.

Your argument fails because the reapers have stated, they kill advanced organic life BEFORE they create an all powerful synthetic. The fact that the reapers allowed the Geth to be built shows they never viewed the Geth as the life ending synthetic.

Not to bright are you?

The Reapers were sleeping in dark space when the geth came into existence.

[Fruit of the Doom]

o Ventus wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

defenestrated wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

Wrong. 

Created will rebel against creators. Whether it was the Quarians fault or not, the Geth began killing the Quarians. EDI started out as a rogue AI. The catalyst wasn't wrong.

You've got that backwards. Quarians started killing Geth, Geth defended themselves. They didn't want to kill Quarians. We learn in ME3 they even still honor the Quarians who defended them during the first war.

And they certainly weren't out to kill all organic life in the galaxy.

Your argument fails because the reapers have stated, they kill advanced organic life BEFORE they create an all powerful synthetic. The fact that the reapers allowed the Geth to be built shows they never viewed the Geth as the life ending synthetic.

Not to bright are you?

The Reapers were sleeping in dark space when the geth came into existence.

*cough* Sovereign *cough*

[piemanz]

o Ventus wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

defenestrated wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

Wrong. 

Created will rebel against creators. Whether it was the Quarians fault or not, the Geth began killing the Quarians. EDI started out as a rogue AI. The catalyst wasn't wrong.

You've got that backwards. Quarians started killing Geth, Geth defended themselves. They didn't want to kill Quarians. We learn in ME3 they even still honor the Quarians who defended them during the first war.

And they certainly weren't out to kill all organic life in the galaxy.

Your argument fails because the reapers have stated, they kill advanced organic life BEFORE they create an all powerful synthetic. The fact that the reapers allowed the Geth to be built shows they never viewed the Geth as the life ending synthetic.

Not to bright are you?

The Reapers were sleeping in dark space when the geth came into existence.

Maybe you should replay ME1

Modifié par piemanz, 22 mars 2012 - 05:35 .

[gloom13]

Using the OP's logic - I would take it that he did not cure the Genophage for what the Krogans may become, and he probably condemned the Geth as "war is inevitible". It's a very Reaper way of thinking. They are so sure that organics and synthetics will always war, therefore they must do what they do. My Shepard would disagree. He would teach that dog a new trick or find another way...

Modifié par gloom13, 22 mars 2012 - 05:41 .

[Computron2000]

piemanz wrote...
My point is that even here, one single planet not everyone agrees, and will actually go as far as to kill eachother en mass for their dissagreements. The chances that everyone will just agree to stop doing something on a galactic scale is absolute zero.

Oh its not that difficult. The council already controls a vast amount of space. There are some areas outside of their control but mostly they are the main movers. Simply beam a full explaination, collected data on how this conclusion was reached and an ultimatum that if the Council ever allows new synthetics (or all synthetics depending on the goal) to exist, the Reapers will be back. The Council already outlaws AIs anyway.

An axe hanging over your head gets things moving very quickly and makes them clamp down hard when they would normally close an eye to something.

Remember its not asking the organics to give up something they already have. Its telling them to not create a certain thing. There's no real cost other than an opportunity cost

[Foltro]

Mixorz wrote...


Wrong. 

Created will rebel against creators. Whether it was the Quarians fault or not, the Geth began killing the Quarians. EDI started out as a rogue AI. The catalyst wasn't wrong.

They don't want to save every race. Again you misinterpret. They know in order for organic life to continue, the advanced races at some point need to go bye bye.

Wrong.

As a matter of fact the Quarians began killing the Geth. The geht merely formed a collective intelligence that was great enough to ask the question "Does this unit have a soul?". They asked a question and the Quarians started shooting. Furthermore the geth had no wish to wipe their creators out.

Why do the advanced species have to go extinct in order to preserver organic life as a whole? Do I have to kill every insect that has developed wings in order to preserve insectoid life as a whole? I fail to see the logic behind it, please clarify.

[Penumbra80]

In a perverse way, it makes sense. You lose your physical body but your both your mind and DNA, the things that actually make you "real", live on in an immortal starship, travelling around the vacuum of space without having to worry about physical needs or risks. Your species was fighting an interstellar war? That will no longer be necessary. Your civilization was suffering from a deadly and incurable pandemic? No worries...you might have lost your body but retain a form of immortality. Does slavery plague the galaxy? No need for that any longer since you're "transcended flesh" as Legion put it. It's the perfect type of preservation.

[o Ventus]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

defenestrated wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

Wrong. 

Created will rebel against creators. Whether it was the Quarians fault or not, the Geth began killing the Quarians. EDI started out as a rogue AI. The catalyst wasn't wrong.

You've got that backwards. Quarians started killing Geth, Geth defended themselves. They didn't want to kill Quarians. We learn in ME3 they even still honor the Quarians who defended them during the first war.

And they certainly weren't out to kill all organic life in the galaxy.

Your argument fails because the reapers have stated, they kill advanced organic life BEFORE they create an all powerful synthetic. The fact that the reapers allowed the Geth to be built shows they never viewed the Geth as the life ending synthetic.

Not to bright are you?

The Reapers were sleeping in dark space when the geth came into existence.

*cough* Sovereign *cough*

Sovereign is 1 Reaper.

Note the "S" to designate plural in my original post. Yes, Harbinger and co. were in dark space during the events of the first game. The only other Reapers out of darkspace were the derelict and the Leviathan, both of which were decomissioned (or "dead).

[Penumbra80]

Foltro wrote...

Wrong.

As a matter of fact the Quarians began killing the Geth. The geht merely formed a collective intelligence that was great enough to ask the question "Does this unit have a soul?". They asked a question and the Quarians started shooting. Furthermore the geth had no wish to wipe their creators out.

Why do the advanced species have to go extinct in order to preserver organic life as a whole? Do I have to kill every insect that has developed wings in order to preserve insectoid life as a whole? I fail to see the logic behind it, please clarify.

As sympathetic as I was towards EDI and the Geth, these are just two cases in a billion year long history of galactic civilization.  Recall Javik's account of the Metacon war and the zha'til, and it's evident that it seems the clash between AI and organics always plays out in one form or another.  The Pattern that Vendetta referred to on Thessia and it's Pandora's Box the reapers want to stay shut.  It's forced husbandry, cultivating and preserving an organic civilization and preventing it from creating an irreversible mistake.

[smegmalongbeach]

Computron2000 wrote...

piemanz wrote...
My point is that even here, one single planet not everyone agrees, and will actually go as far as to kill eachother en mass for their dissagreements. The chances that everyone will just agree to stop doing something on a galactic scale is absolute zero.

Oh its not that difficult. The council already controls a vast amount of space. There are some areas outside of their control but mostly they are the main movers. Simply beam a full explaination, collected data on how this conclusion was reached and an ultimatum that if the Council ever allows new synthetics (or all synthetics depending on the goal) to exist, the Reapers will be back. The Council already outlaws AIs anyway.

An axe hanging over your head gets things moving very quickly and makes them clamp down hard when they would normally close an eye to something.

Remember its not asking the organics to give up something they already have. Its telling them to not create a certain thing. There's no real cost other than an opportunity cost

I find this awesome

ME3 conclusion, sheppard, Anderson and the council in negotiations with TIM, harbinger, and the reapers

sheppard: "now according to article 4 the reapers will not return unless [a] the council of organics fail to enforce the ban on pursuing AI [b] the council of organics is unable to monitor and enforce AI embargos on out laying systems and  small satalitie masses that could be settled and used for production or to pursue  A.I. technology [c] if the council of organics tries to change or mandate current regulations on V.I. note: in the case of section [c] all terms agreed upon in article-2 section-12 are voided and..."

harbinger turns to reapers: "now I remember why we just kill them when they get this advanced"

[FemmeShep]

All I know is, each life has the right to fight to exist. To defend their life. And even if what the Reaper says is true, Shepard had the right to reject it. Regardless of the Reapers intentions.

That's my biggest issue with all of this. For a game that is all about choice, why wasn't there an option to reject what Star Child said? There really is no reason why there shouldn't be. 

I still believe the Reaper's logic was nonsensical and has many flaws. But I accept that not everyone agrees with that. Fine. But I would at least hope most would agree with me in that, it seems bizarre Shepard as a free-will thinking person, didn't have the option to reject these notions and fight for their right to exist outside the close rules that was put on him with the choices. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 22 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[Penumbra80]

o Ventus wrote...

Note the "S" to designate plural in my original post. Yes, Harbinger and co. were in dark space during the events of the first game. The only other Reapers out of darkspace were the derelict and the Leviathan, both of which were decomissioned (or "dead).

But it's Sovereign who has a specialized task, monitoring and assessing the state of galactic affairs and to signal the keepers when the time was right.  It serves as the eyes on the ground role that the rest of the reapers rely on.  Of course, with the keepers getting tinkered with by the Ilos research team, he could no longer remotely trigger the Citadel and had to look for alternative means to get in. 

[sadako]

Sense? Reapers lying to you so they have a valid reason to create their progeny, makes sense too.

"I'd tell you the truth that we are using your organic material to make babies, but that would sound so much lamer than killing organics with synthetics so that synthetics don't wipe out organics that created the synthetics" - Harby in an inofficial interview in Battlespace.

Modifié par sadako, 22 mars 2012 - 06:52 .

[Keltikone]

I'm surprised this hasn't made an appearance in the thread yet:



Fixed

[o Ventus]

Penumbra80 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Note the "S" to designate plural in my original post. Yes, Harbinger and co. were in dark space during the events of the first game. The only other Reapers out of darkspace were the derelict and the Leviathan, both of which were decomissioned (or "dead).

But it's Sovereign who has a specialized task, monitoring and assessing the state of galactic affairs and to signal the keepers when the time was right.  It serves as the eyes on the ground role that the rest of the reapers rely on.  Of course, with the keepers getting tinkered with by the Ilos research team, he could no longer remotely trigger the Citadel and had to look for alternative means to get in. 

Which has nothing to do with my post.

[Erixxxx]

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

The possibility is there that they have never encountered an alternative situation. How can you know about something if you haven't experienced it? Compare it to EDI and her questions for Shepard about love. She's incredibly smart, and yet she doesn't know something that most of us take for granted. Why? Because she lacks the experience.

[Scalpels]

The ending by Drew regarding Dark Matter/Energy was much more logical.