271 réponses à ce sujet

[CarolSephard]

Mixorz wrote...

CarolSephard wrote...

You can teach the dog instead of killing it ^^

Cant teach an old dog new tricks. Human saying ironically.

Yes, you can. It's harder but you can do it. Anyway, why bother with organic and synthetic life of milky way if you don't live there? let them kill each other if they want to. 

Tell me something like "reapers want to play gods" or "to harvest organic life is their way of reproduction". Anything but the goal presented in the endings...

[dfstone]

Honestly after ME1 and ME2, I thought it came down to dark energy. The reapers obviously couldn't reproduce. Thats why the collectors were taking human colonists to use their DNA to build a new Reaper. And they waited long enough until a civilization discovered biotics and then they would attack. With all the dark energy backstory, it seemed like the Reapers needed dark energy for some reason. But they just totally abandoned that whole idea in ME3.

The other hint in ME2 was relays. The protheans had figured out how to build their own relays when the Reapers attacked. And in ME2 the bartender on illium hinted that the Asari could build their own relays too. Which made sense why would the Reapers allow the civilization to escape the little rat's maze they set up for them.

Either idea made total sense with the whole story uncovered so far in ME1 and ME2. But then in ME3 they just pull this synthetic thing in out of no where. It had no basis at all in any of the other games.

[FemmeShep]

SCJ90 wrote...

So the reapers acts as our mother nature in a way? They destroy us b4 we can destroy ourself and leaves something for the future generations. Sure allright that seamse possible, it is not the conclusion of the series that I was looking forward to.

But at least mother nature is science based. It's elements to the enviornment we can't control.

The reapers are a robotic entitiy. So it's not as easy as accepting it as that. There has to be a reason for why they were created. And how to whoever came to the conclusion the reaper system was necessary...

Unless we are to believe Reapers are literally from GOD or some space magic...

[Narsilsword]

Catalyst: the fact that you are here, the first organic ever proves my solution won't work anymore"

Sheperd: really?

Catalyst: lol, No. I'm gonna let the reapers continue to kill you all

Sheperd: You can't I'll stop you, one of these colour coded machines must do something!

Catalyst: good luck, 100% of them kill you. Sure you wann take that risk?

[Bazedragon]

Klijpope wrote...

The probability of a synthetic species deciding to wipe out all organic life over time approaches 1.

The solution has existed for at least 37 million years. Plenty of time to see the proof of that.

What has happened before will happen again, yadda yadda....

Wait, what?

[Sesshaku]

Mixorz wrote...

It never happened because the reapers make sure it doesn't. It is all preventative. It doesn't help if the reapers wait for a super power synthetic to be created, because at that point the reapers might not even be able to stop them.

That's nonsense. Organics technology was faaar far delayed compared with the reapers technology, nothing can expand through all the galaxy that fast and with that power, not even the reapers could, and they are the most advanced form of organic-synthethic combination.
So, they would have no problem in helping organics against the synthetics that represented a real menace before they get strong.

[Casterdael]

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

[defenestrated]

Mixorz wrote...

Wrong. 

Created will rebel against creators. Whether it was the Quarians fault or not, the Geth began killing the Quarians. EDI started out as a rogue AI. The catalyst wasn't wrong.

You've got that backwards. Quarians started killing Geth, Geth defended themselves. They didn't want to kill Quarians. We learn in ME3 they even still honor the Quarians who defended them during the first war.

And they certainly weren't out to kill all organic life in the galaxy.

[FemmeShep]

I think the problem here is, there is no real justification for mass wiping out life, when you have other solutions to fix the problem.

So regardless if you try to justify their Chaos/Control theory, it still makes no sense why they choose to wipe out almost all organics instead of just dealing with the problem in other ways. Unless they have no sense of morality and respect for life. And again, that all comes down to who created the Reaper and what their logic was.

Modifié par FemmeShep, 22 mars 2012 - 04:03 .

[tommythetomcat]

The biggest problem with it?

The fact that destroying all organic life does not stop any synthetic like that already exists from continuing to advance and eventually take hold of the galaxy. They never mention destroying them and not only that but Harbinger assesses them in cut ME2 dialog about species viability to be made into a Reaper.

[Iwillbeback]

Plot hole

[Naerivar]

I think that the starchild is not actually referring to the geth, but to synthetics in general. Ironically, the kind that isn't present in this cycle. The reason why the starchild is so sure of himself probably uses part of the following argument.

Synthetics think with logic and nothing but logic (EDI only 'evolved' because of her interactions with ever-changing organic life. The Geth still use only logic, they 'admire' the idea of hope. Which implies they don't understand and feel it). Logically a synthetic has no use for an organic. Whereas an organic has multiple uses for a synthetic. At the same time a synthetic does use some of the same resources as organics, they are therefore rivals (a symbiosis is unlikely because once again, synthetics have no need for organics).

One way to get rid of rivals is to exterminate them. It doesn't even have to be an active way, we humans don't exterminate ants, but when we find them in our home, we sure will. Now, if all ants in the world were part of a civilisation, then terminating one colony might trigger a full-scale war. But as soon as your house is invaded with ants time and time again (and you understand they are doing it on purpose) it might be easier to just exterminate the lot of them.

Of course this argument is not fool proof. But the point is mostly that a synthetic, due to their very nature, will have little use for organic life. And therefore (without emotions) will have no qualms about getting rid of it. The only logical reason for synthetics not to kill organic life is if they never cross. But synthetics have to be created first... Note that this counts for every organic, not just intelligent species. If this went on long enough eventually all organic life would be exterminated, not just (semi) intelligent species (like the Reapers tend to harvest).

So yeah, to me the Starchild has made some sense. If by some way you can salvage the organics and put them in Reaper form then you kinda saved them for mass extinction.

What irks me most however is this: so we just saved an entire intelligent specie and put them in a Reaper form. Now we sent to Dark Space to hibernate fifty thousand year to help us harvest a new Reaper....
Why would you save organic life to just have it hibernate or save more organic life. That doesn't make sense to me. Because 'in the end' the difference between the two galaxies (one with reapers harvesting everything and one with only genocidal synthetics) is the fact that you have either organic live that does nothing or synthetic life that does whatever synthetic life does... Seems kinda useless to me.

[Geneaux486]

Also why are people assuming the Reapers are dealing in hypotheticals? The scenario the Catalyst described happened with the synthetics of their cycle in the Metacon War, which is around the time the Reapers showed up. There's probably a lot of precedent to what the Catalyst was talking about.

[Nefelius]

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

Modifié par Nefelius, 22 mars 2012 - 04:04 .

[RoyalGambit]

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

I don't really understand your argument.. "What's to stop organics from creating new ones?". Nothing, but they're not stopping the creation of synthetics by killing advanced organics either, since new advanced organics will emerge. Really, if the reapers wanted to prevent singularity, they'd form an anti-AI Green Lantern Corps.

I'll start writing the fan-fic.

Modifié par RoyalGambit, 22 mars 2012 - 04:06 .

[Oakenshield1]

No it doesn't make sense. The Reapers created the Mass Relays to direct us on a certain path that will end in what they see as inevitable conclusions. If they are directing our paths, they are also responsible for us developing synthetics. But yet they kill us 50k years to prevent us from being killed by something they started...

[Geneaux486]

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a totally sane counterargument!

[SCJ90]

FemmeShep wrote...

SCJ90 wrote...

So the reapers acts as our mother nature in a way? They destroy us b4 we can destroy ourself and leaves something for the future generations. Sure allright that seamse possible, it is not the conclusion of the series that I was looking forward to.

But at least mother nature is science based. It's elements to the enviornment we can't control.

The reapers are a robotic entitiy. So it's not as easy as accepting it as that. There has to be a reason for why they were created. And how to whoever came to the conclusion the reaper system was necessary...

Unless we are to believe Reapers are literally from GOD or some space magic...

Well it may have been some enviromentalist 50 miljon years ago predicted that organics would take over the galaxy and strip mine the resurces ensuring that no other races would evolve and in the end all life in our galaxy would end, and the reapers are a solution to that problem

As for the syntacic end maybe we where given wisdom or the understanding from a syntaics point of view, the geth mined on Rannoch but from what i remember they took good care of the land. Organics has a inpulse to expand and reproduce, the geth has not

[Mixorz]

defenestrated wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

Wrong. 

Created will rebel against creators. Whether it was the Quarians fault or not, the Geth began killing the Quarians. EDI started out as a rogue AI. The catalyst wasn't wrong.

You've got that backwards. Quarians started killing Geth, Geth defended themselves. They didn't want to kill Quarians. We learn in ME3 they even still honor the Quarians who defended them during the first war.

And they certainly weren't out to kill all organic life in the galaxy.

Your argument fails because the reapers have stated, they kill advanced organic life BEFORE they create an all powerful synthetic. The fact that the reapers allowed the Geth to be built shows they never viewed the Geth as the life ending synthetic.

[Bazedragon]

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

Using his logic, you'd be able to get off scott-free aswel. It's a public service!

[Heinzmann01]

The reaper logic isn't supposed to make sense. The starchild is an AI, remember!? It believes that the cycle is correct because it was created to think so, at least that's how I look at it. And, if I'm thinking of this correctly, the Reapers and starchild aren't knowingly working together. They are both part of a cycle that some distant civilization created. They believe they are bringing order to chaos by wiping out organics so that synthetics can't overtake humanity. And it works. However, it is a single, narrowminded point of view.

[Shared]

Tbh circular logic is never logical. We kill organics so they dont make syntethics that kill ALL organics. Thats not logic. Thats stupid. Logic would be we kill syntethics so they dont advance enough to kill ALL organics. Now that is logic. The other stuff is just stupid.

[DreamTension]

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

Problem::::::
1) We just proved this completely false by giving the Geth true AI or life.  The first thing the Geth do is seek peace with Quarians, you know, the people that tried to kill them.  Not the other way around.
2) Next problem: Edi, as an AI, is completely dedicated to your cause.  She shows unwavering allegiance when giving the ability to fully form an opinion.

In fact, the only time an AI has attacked organics is WHEN THE REAPERS (synthetics) CONTROLLED THEM TO DO SO!!! 

Better analogy is somebody killing the dog for digging the hole who actually forced the dog to dig the hole.  The dog doesn't do it otherwise.

[Johnnycide]

If it were fleshed out more, and explained with substantial certainty about the technological singularity then maybe I'd be more willing to accept it. The way it stands right now though, it's thrown at us from far left field, possibly due to the vessel used to deliver the motivation (i.e. starchild) or that it suddenly comes out of no where it makes the reapers less menacing and more silly/idiotic.

[Ulicus]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Finally someone else who realizes that the Reapers' goal isn't a plot hole. It's a story as old as the hills, mankind gets too advanced to control it's own technology, and is destroyed.

No. Again:

Ulicus wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge.

And why do they have the knowledge? 

Because the Reapers "guide [organics] down the paths [they] desire".

Sorry, but taking the previous games into consideration, the Reapers' goal (assuming that is the only goal, of course) is nonsense. Even if the Reapers could state with 99.999999999% certainity that the technological singularity would lead to the annihilation of all organic life everywhere, if they actually cared about preventing it, they wouldn't deliberately leave behind technology that literally catapults the organic races towards it. They'd have a far easier time staying in the Milky Way and intimidating primitive races into remaining pre-spaceflight.

It's not "[organics'] own technology", it's technology based on that the Reapers intentionally leave behind to encourage their advancement.

There is now no reason for them to do this. At all.

Modifié par Ulicus, 22 mars 2012 - 04:09 .