271 réponses à ce sujet

[Fruit of the Doom]

Iwillbeback wrote...

Plot hole

SPACE MAGIC

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 22 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[piemanz]

But  you make peace between the Geth and Quarians so the Catalyst must be wrong

Irrelevant.

A: Because it only proves you made peace with them at this particular point in time, it doesn't prove the peace will last.

B: Regardless of whether the Catalyst is right or not, it beleives in what it's saying, so to him/it the logic is perfectly sound.

C: The Catalyst  doesn't say that peace won't exist between organics and synthetics, only at some point sythetics will destroy organics. It doesn't necessarily mean the sythetics will start out as the agressors either.

Modifié par piemanz, 22 mars 2012 - 04:11 .

[dfstone]

I thought the reapers were jealous. They needed organic life in-order for them to live and they resented organic life for it. They considering themselves superior but in the end were dependent on lowly organics to live. They directed them down a particular path so the species would be genetically strong enough to create a strong reaper and then they'd harvest them. It made total sense. This synthetic BS does not.

[ergonomalous]

Klijpope wrote...

The probability of a synthetic species deciding to wipe out all organic life over time approaches 1.

The solution has existed for at least 37 million years. Plenty of time to see the proof of that.

What has happened before will happen again, yadda yadda....

The problem is, it has to of happened at least once for him to get this idea. If it happened once and all organic life in the galaxy is killed then chances are that no species would have been able to rise up. And since it had to of happened at least once, then who defeated the first synthetics? no species would have been able to advance enough to defeat them.

[Nefelius]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a totally sane counterargument!

Do you object?
If everything that can happen will happen no matter what - then i say that this' guy's grandchildren will invent a bomb that will destroy our entire universe.
We can prevent that by killing him right now immediatly and not letting him have those children.
In fact anyone of us can have grandgrand...children that could invent that bomb.
Let's commit mass suicide to prevent that from happening, because as this guy says - it will inevitably happen because it just can.

[Sesshaku]

Also, the starchild said that their solution won't work anymore.
So they new solution, includes destroying ALL mass relays, so.

1º: If you choose control, nothing will change about the synthetics threat, organics and synthetics would exist. But communications would be stopped.
2º: If you choose synthesis....pure synthethics could be made again, and pure organic life would depend on new undiscovered and unreacheable planets. So, we have reapers, semi reapers, synthethics, and organics.
3º: If you choose destroy, again, we have no change, synthethics would be made again, communications completly stopped. No reapers to "protect us".


Let's also make clear that the destruction of Mass Relays actually DAMAGE, organics chances of winning against synthethics. Because if you create a dangeruos synthethic species but you have the citadel and mass relays, you could easily coordinate with all the organics fleets and focus all fire on that planet before thay can expand. If you have reapers on your side, chances would be even higher.
But, if you destroy mass relays, synthechic could exploit the fact that they don't need food, water, gravity, etc. They would exploit the fact that their living period is higher and expand through all the galaxy slowly, while all organics forms of life won't be able to communicate with other's forms of life quickly and can't coordinate a coop attack.

So their "new 3 solutions" HAD NO SENSE. And their old solutiond had no sense either.

[Oakenshield1]

DreamTension wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

Problem::::::
1) We just proved this completely false by giving the Geth true AI or life.  The first thing the Geth do is seek peace with Quarians, you know, the people that tried to kill them.  Not the other way around.
2) Next problem: Edi, as an AI, is completely dedicated to your cause.  She shows unwavering allegiance when giving the ability to fully form an opinion.

In fact, the only time an AI has attacked organics is WHEN THE REAPERS (synthetics) CONTROLLED THEM TO DO SO!!! 

Better analogy is somebody killing the dog for digging the hole who actually forced the dog to dig the hole.  The dog doesn't do it otherwise.

Actually, EDI was the rouge AI on the Luna mission in ME 1... soooshe WAS homicidal at first, but then she chilled out.

[Nauks]

If we're lucky enough to get an extended ending that goes back to the whole Dark Energy reason for Reaping, instead of over used AI vs organics boredome.

One of the great things about ME, and ME1 especially is that the AI rebelling against organics was a sub plot, Bioware is was too good at what they do to stoop to that being the main thing of it all.

[Carlthestrange]

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

By that logic, you may as well wipe out al organic life now, so it can't kill itself later. The Reaper logic is still flawed to a retarded level, from a psychological point of view.

[danicoro]

Mixorz wrote...

CarolSephard wrote...

You can teach the dog instead of killing it ^^

Cant teach an old dog new tricks. Human saying ironically.

I don't know, man, I trained my 9 year old rescue with behaviour problems to behave off-leash, and it's still successful to this day.

[Geneaux486]

Nefelius wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a totally sane counterargument!

Do you object?
If everything that can happen will happen no matter what - then i say that this' guy's grandchildren will invent a bomb that will destroy our entire universe.
We can prevent that by killing him right now immediatly and not letting him have those children.
In fact anyone of us can have grandgrand...children that could invent that bomb.
Let's commit mass suicide to prevent that from happening, because as this guy says - it will inevitably happen because it just can.

Explaining does not make it sound less psychopathic.  Just saying.  You're comparing real life to a game in which giant living spaceships exterminate all advanced life every 50,000 years.  Why stop suspending your disbelief at the end when they tell you why?

[jumpingkaede]

Oakenshield1 wrote...

Actually, EDI was the rouge AI on the Luna mission in ME 1... soooshe WAS homicidal at first, but then she chilled out.

Would she still have been homicidal if the Alliance didn't try to shut her off?  Or is she like the Geth acting in self defense?

The Reapers solution makes sense to the problem as they see it.   It just doesn't make much sense objectively, to say nothing of why the Reapers' creators would even care about future cycles to begin with. 

It was much better when the Reapers were actually evil and were harvesting organic life to propogate and continue their own existence.  Having them be "good-intentioned" just cheapened the whole affair.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 22 mars 2012 - 04:15 .

[Baafee]

There is a very simple argument showing how the reapers logic is flawed.

Reapers were originally created by organics or by synthetics who didn't successfully wipe out the galaxy themselves created by synthetics who didn't successfully wipe out the galaxy [...] themselves created by organics.
Organics -> (Synthetics ->)* Reapers

Reapers are true AIs not wiping out the galaxy.

Do I need to be clearer about why this demonstrate that organics won't always create synthetics wiping them out?

Modifié par Baafee, 22 mars 2012 - 04:14 .

[savionen]

Even if you can personally find logic in it, it's still not a proven solution.

We only have 3 samples of synthetics. EDI, Geth, and the Metracron Wars.
EDI showed she could be trusted.
The Geth showed they didn't want to kill Quarians, and could make peace.
The Metacron wars are more unclear, but only happened because of the Reapers.

Killing all organics is also, basically, impossible. Even if synthetics wanted to wipe out all organics, it'd be a massive undertaking to kill every plant, ant and bit of bacteria even. Life would still find a way, since life basically came out of nothing, in the first place.

[Xandurpein]

It's a known fact that many third world countries that are mired in poverty also have a families with very many children that they can't feed. It's reasonable to believe that if all families in these countries had fewer children then it would in the long run lead to less poverty and more progress there. If that's true, does it make it right to murder babies in those countries to combat poverty? Social engineering on such a scale isn't just statistics, it's individuals with a free will getting murdered...

Edit: I'm convinced that it's discussions like this that Bioware hoped to spark with their ending. They just implemented things so poorly that those "lots of speculation" got drowned in the distaste.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 22 mars 2012 - 04:15 .

[dfstone]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Oakenshield1 wrote...

Actually, EDI was the rouge AI on the Luna mission in ME 1... soooshe WAS homicidal at first, but then she chilled out.

Would she still have been homicidal if the Alliance didn't try to shut her off?  Or is she like the Geth acting in self defense?

The Reapers solution makes sense to the problem as they see it.   It just doesn't make much sense objectively, to say nothing of why the Reapers' creators would even care about future cycles to begin with. 

It was much better when the Reapers were actually evil and were harvesting organic life to propogate and continue their own existence.  Having them be "good-intentioned" just cheapened the whole affair.

She said she wasn't completely sentient then and was acting on a kind of instinct.  Much like the Geth.

[CombustiblePanda]

Mixorz wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

The problem with this, is it goes off assumptions. By the end of the game, Shepard basically has proven that the AI's logic is wrong.

So you kill things that COULD do something...and the irony is that the very thing that is killing them is what they want to stop from happening.

Wrong. 

Created will rebel against creators. Whether it was the Quarians fault or not, the Geth began killing the Quarians. EDI started out as a rogue AI. The catalyst wasn't wrong.

They don't want to save every race. Again you misinterpret. They know in order for organic life to continue, the advanced races at some point need to go bye bye.

Ahem.

"Once the now-sentient geth realized what the quarians were doing, they
retaliated. Initially only some geth began to take up arms in order to
protect other units that could not defend themselves. The quarians
placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even those geth not
participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a large portion
of the quarian people."

The Geth didn't want to kill the Quarians, it was simply out of self-defense. The didn't even try to leave the planet to chase after them, they just wanted to be left alone.
If the Quarians didn't decide to try and wipe out the Geth, then they probably would of been able to co-exist peacefully.

[CarolSephard]

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

This is crazy. Are you going to kill me because, in an infinite timespan, there is a possibility that i go crazy and kill someone?? Did you watch Minority report?

[Bazedragon]

Oakenshield1 wrote...

Actually, EDI was the rouge AI on the Luna mission in ME 1... soooshe WAS homicidal at first, but then she chilled out.

Correction - She was a combat training VI which, through some freak error managed to gain some level of awareness - the actions taken were fully in-keeping with self-preservation instincts exhibited by ALL organic species, and the same instincts which caused the Morning War.

Does NOT mean she/it was homicidal OR sentient at that point in time.

[dfstone]

Baafee wrote...

There is a very simple argument showing how the reapers logic is flawed.

Reapers were originally created by organics or by synthetics who didn't successfully wipe out the galaxy themselves created by synthetics who didn't successfully wipe out the galaxy [...] themselves created by organics.
Reapers are true AIs not wiping out the galaxy.

Do I need to be clearer about why this demonstrate that organics won't always create synthetics wiping them out?

Bigger problem is that Soverign stated way back in ME1 that no one built the Reapers.  Shepherd asked it point blank "who built you".  And soverign said no one, that they always existed.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Xandurpein wrote...

It's a known fact that many third world countries that are mired in poverty also have a families with very many children that they can't feed. It's reasonable to believe that if all families in these countries had fewer children then it would in the long run lead to less poverty and more progress there. If that's true, does it make it right to murder babies in those countries to combat poverty? Social engineering on such a scale isn't just statistics, it's individuals with a free will getting murdered...

Someone finally said it.

Space Casper has no ****ing right to impose his prejudices upon QUADRILLIONS OF BEINGS.

You are defending the equivalent of a galactic Hitler, complete with a "Final Solution", only with both the scale and atrocity multiplied by a factor of more than a billion.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 22 mars 2012 - 04:16 .

[jumpingkaede]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Explaining does not make it sound less psychopathic. Just saying. You're comparing real life to a game in which giant living spaceships exterminate all advanced life every 50,000 years. Why stop suspending your disbelief at the end when they tell you why?

I never stopped suspending my disbelief. It was just very stupid. And far too similar to The Matrix: Reloaded which I thought was equally stupid.

The difference being one is the "Architect of the Matrix" and the other is apparently the "Architect of the Mass Effect Galaxy".

Also at least The Matrix had the kindness to introduce us to the Architect in Act II. Not only that, but Neo rebelled and told the Architect off. Said he didn't agree with the solutions. Said he would find a new solution. And he did. Somewhat. At least, he spent all of the Final Act trying.

Bioware dropped it on us in the closing minutes of the Final Act. And Shepard bought into it hook, line, sinker.

How terrible would The Matrix have been if it ended 5 minutes after Neo met The Architect?  That's Mass Effect.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 22 mars 2012 - 04:16 .

[Halo Quea]

The Reapers are hypocrites because they KILL EVERYONE.

Some people are confused about the time table of the cycles but it just doesn't matter. Just because the Reapers aren't attacking some primitive species now doesn't mean that they won't kill them later, they WILL kill them later.

I'll say it again. It doesn't matter that they leave you alone today, they'll be killing you eventually no matter what synthetics you created or didn't create. What the OP doesn't understand is that the Reaper's goals are a Final Solution for organics. They even perpetuate it by leaving tech around that will trap future species.

So in the Reapers minds we are ALL guilty, tried and convicted before we even make it to the Citadel. They've passed a death sentence on EVERY organic even before they climb out of their evolutionary stages.

[Tritium315]

Just 'cause it makes sense doesn't mean it's not an awful plan. It's the same as saying: to avoid termites getting into my house I'm gonna blow it up every year and rebuild it. Yes, that plan makes sense and would work, but it's retarded.

The reapers have countless other options at their disposal, kill synthetics as they are developed, don't make the relays and thus only "reap" the galaxy every million years or however long it takes to build relay type technology (an isolated society would be far easier to destroy), or hang around the citadel and as new races discover it tell them "hey, we're just gonna chill here, but don't make any robots, it's a bad idea."