271 réponses à ce sujet

[ergonomalous]

I can agree that the logic makes sense to the AI. But why does Shepard Dumbly buy into?

[DreamTension]

Oakenshield1 wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

Problem::::::
1) We just proved this completely false by giving the Geth true AI or life.  The first thing the Geth do is seek peace with Quarians, you know, the people that tried to kill them.  Not the other way around.
2) Next problem: Edi, as an AI, is completely dedicated to your cause.  She shows unwavering allegiance when giving the ability to fully form an opinion.

In fact, the only time an AI has attacked organics is WHEN THE REAPERS (synthetics) CONTROLLED THEM TO DO SO!!! 

Better analogy is somebody killing the dog for digging the hole who actually forced the dog to dig the hole.  The dog doesn't do it otherwise.

Actually, EDI was the rouge AI on the Luna mission in ME 1... soooshe WAS homicidal at first, but then she chilled out.

Great point.  But after 'freeing her' she was free to make her own decisions.

[Nefelius]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a totally sane counterargument!

Do you object?
If everything that can happen will happen no matter what - then i say that this' guy's grandchildren will invent a bomb that will destroy our entire universe.
We can prevent that by killing him right now immediatly and not letting him have those children.
In fact anyone of us can have grandgrand...children that could invent that bomb.
Let's commit mass suicide to prevent that from happening, because as this guy says - it will inevitably happen because it just can.

Explaining does not make it sound less psychopathic.  Just saying.  You're comparing real life to a game in which giant living spaceships exterminate all advanced life every 50,000 years.  Why stop suspending your disbelief at the end when they tell you why?

Well, the psychopatic examples are the best when you need to point at ridiculousness.
First, our universe has no actual proven beginning and we don;t know will or will it not end.
So far as we know - it's infinite. So it's pretty much can be compared to a sci-fi game.
Doesn't mean it has any sense, though.

[Kuari999]

No, it doesn't make sense, its circular logic. There is no way around it. You also forget a key point.. the Reapers make every effort to make certain aspects repeat themselves. If anyone who have put things to the point of a Terminator infested universe, it quite frankly would be the Reapers. As the geth said, there are many paths technology can take and the Reapers purposely limit those paths. Hell, the Geth/Quarians is also a great example. The Geth NEVER wanted to fight until the Reapers interfered and created the heretics. They were just fighting for survival and waiting for a time they could make peace and serve the Quarians again.

So basically the Reapers for billions of years created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Its insanity to the highest degree and quite frankly the fact ANYONE believes this logic disturbs me GREATLY.

Modifié par Kuari999, 22 mars 2012 - 04:18 .

[Baafee]

dfstone wrote...

Bigger problem is that Soverign stated way back in ME1 that no one built the Reapers.  Shepherd asked it point blank "who built you".  And soverign said no one, that they always existed.

And except if you want to believe in god-Reapers creating the universe itself, that's obviously a simple lie for drama.

Modifié par Baafee, 22 mars 2012 - 04:17 .

[Geneaux486]

The Reapers being wrong isn't the same as their logic being a plothole. Remember, the Reapers are partly organic, this includes their minds.  They're fallible to.  I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to think the Reapers are right at the end of the game.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 mars 2012 - 04:18 .

[Ssation]

Havn't read everything but : instead killing organic, to avoid them being killed by synthetics (....), why don't just kill synthetics? Regarding the power Reapers can have on geths, seems not difficult, and that would make a little more sense.

[sOUZUKEN]

Technological Singularity is a real term-it is the hypothetical future emergence of greater-than-human intelligence through technological means.

i believe that's what the god child is saying.

and his solution was brunt and effective.

[jumpingkaede]

Tritium315 wrote...

or hang around the citadel and as new races discover it tell them "hey, we're just gonna chill here, but don't make any robots, it's a bad idea."

That would be a pretty strong deterrent, actually.

"If you make AIs we're going to reap you."

It'd only take a few cycles of reaping before everyone gets the message.  Do you think the quarians would have made the Geth if they knew they would be reaped?  And even if they did... reap the quarians and the Geth.  Problem solved.  Life  continues.  And that way the other races aren't punished because they didn't break any rules.

[Halo Quea]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

It's a known fact that many third world countries that are mired in poverty also have a families with very many children that they can't feed. It's reasonable to believe that if all families in these countries had fewer children then it would in the long run lead to less poverty and more progress there. If that's true, does it make it right to murder babies in those countries to combat poverty? Social engineering on such a scale isn't just statistics, it's individuals with a free will getting murdered...

Someone finally said it.

Space Casper has no ****ing right to impose his prejudices upon QUADRILLIONS OF BEINGS.

You are defending the equivalent of a galactic Hitler, complete with a "Final Solution", only with both the scale and atrocity multiplied by a factor of more than a billion.

That's what frustrates me the MOST. He is the galaxy's greatest mass murderer..................and Shepard merely accepts the choices he offers. 

[The Angry One]

ergonomalous wrote...

I can agree that the logic makes sense to the AI. But why does Shepard Dumbly buy into?

That's the 6 million dollar question.

[Kuari999]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Reapers being wrong isn't the same as their logic being a plothole. Remember, the Reapers are partly organic, this includes their minds.  They're fallible to.  I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to think the Reapers are right at the end of the game.

I hope this is the case and that the indoctrination theory is true.  Otherwise at that point?  Shepard pretty much believes that they have reasonable logic by accepting their choices.

[sargon1986]

You know, the Reapers goal does make sense...

Nope, it doesn't.

[dfstone]

Baafee wrote...

dfstone wrote...

Bigger problem is that Soverign stated way back in ME1 that no one built the Reapers.  Shepherd asked it point blank "who built you".  And soverign said no one, that they always existed.

And except if you want to believe in god-Reapers creating the universe itself, that's obviously a simple lie for drama.

So if you can't trust anything the Reapers said then whole entire series is bull****.  There has to be some foundation to build on.  I'm not saying the Reapers are god, but obviously they think they are and there's a reason for that but it was never explained.  And the Jello Kid on the Citadel doesn't explain anything either.  He said he built them, but he was the Citadel and the Citadel was built by the Reapers?  The whole plot line in ME3 is completely FUBAR.  It makes no damn sense at all.

Modifié par dfstone, 22 mars 2012 - 04:20 .

[ericjdev]

A series of preemptive genocides based on a presumption does not make sense.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

ergonomalous wrote...

I can agree that the logic makes sense to the AI. But why does Shepard Dumbly buy into?

That's the 6 million dollar question.

The answer being that Shepard doesn't control the universe.  He may not like it, but his only choices are the ones presented to him by the Catalyst.  He's not really in a position to argue at that point.

[Casterdael]

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a great way to retort an argument indeed. 

[Naerivar]

CarolSephard wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

This is crazy. Are you going to kill me because, in an infinite timespan, there is a possibility that i go crazy and kill someone?? Did you watch Minority report?

But you won't live an infinite timespan so the chance of you going insane and killing someone is (based on emperical evidence) quite low.

[jumpingkaede]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The answer being that Shepard doesn't control the universe.  He may not like it, but his only choices are the ones presented to him by the Catalyst.  He's not really in a position to argue at that point.

And yet... Neo told off the Architect.  And found another solution.  

If Hudson/Walters were so intent and copying that idea, how could they fail to miss the most important part?

[Fruit of the Doom]

Casterdael wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a great way to retort an argument indeed. 

It fits the context perfectly.

I might as well kill you to make sure neither you or your descendants harm anyone.  Because humans are predisposed towards aggression, of course.

[Kuari999]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

ergonomalous wrote...

I can agree that the logic makes sense to the AI. But why does Shepard Dumbly buy into?

That's the 6 million dollar question.

The answer being that Shepard doesn't control the universe.  He may not like it, but his only choices are the ones presented to him by the Catalyst.  He's not really in a position to argue at that point.

Option #4: Power up all the weapons and other assets we added to the Crucible, use the Citadel as a power source as described and unleash hell.  I mean, why add crap like Javelin Missiles if they aren't going to be used!?

[Geneaux486]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The answer being that Shepard doesn't control the universe.  He may not like it, but his only choices are the ones presented to him by the Catalyst.  He's not really in a position to argue at that point.

And yet... Neo told off the Architect.  And found another solution.  

If Hudson/Walters were so intent and copying that idea, how could they fail to miss the most important part?

Neo also had control over the environment he was in.  Shepard did not.  Apples and oranges.

[ImmovableMover]

It has never happened in the past (obviously) So the Reapers "plan" is based solely on unprecedented speculation. It is literally killing all sentient life just in case they create something which hasn't ever done thing that they are scared it will do. It's like Nuking Denmark just in case they decide to legalize rape - Sure you can go "Hey, It worked didn't it? Denmark didn't legalize rape so it was a 100% effective plan!" but that doesn't make it any less stupid as either a plan or a response.

In this cycle we encounter three separate entities that are unshackled AI - The Reapers, EDI and the Geth, Of those three only one of them has EVER shown ANY hostility towards Organics...The Reapers (and some geth...ones that, surprise surprise, have been corrupted by the reapers); So the Reapers exist to fight a problem the Reapers create. Both EDI and The Geth are peaceful by nature and have demonstrated this numerous times.

So far not only has this problem to which they "Solve" hasn't ever arisen, Not only is it completely illogical, the only times it has ever come close has been the "Solutions" own doing. But that's not even the tip of the problem

The Reapers HAVE ALREADY FAILED by the time Mass Effect 1 (and their original "Kill everyone" date) comes along - The Geth were created by the quarians hundreds of years prior, So much for preventing the creation of AI! Also, If the Reapers leave non-organics Alone and then kill off the only species capable of fighting them (technologically advanced organics), They're literally paving the way for a hostile AI to kill all other organic life in the galaxy. If they CAN kill non-organic AI, then thats all they should have done all along, that way once the Reapers had helped the Organics win they could go "See what happens when you do that? Don't do that again".

Organics learn, the cycle is ended, The Reapers go back into Dark Space to keep a watchful eye to make sure it doesn't happen again.

But no, they just choose to wipe out the organics, destroying any chance of organics learning anything. Ever.

This "Solution" fails at every conceivable level, it's not only self-creating the problem, it even self-defeats the solution, The very notion that a hyper-advanced intelligence would think this is a good idea is frankly absurd; Moderately intelligent people are finding huge faults with it. Whoever wrote it really ought to be embarrassed.

Modifié par ImmovableMover, 22 mars 2012 - 04:26 .

[Geneaux486]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a great way to retort an argument indeed. 

It fits the context perfectly.

I might as well kill you to make sure neither you or your descendants harm anyone.  Because humans are predisposed towards aggression, of course.

Wow the Retake guys just keep getting saner don't they.

[CDHarrisUSF]

SamFlagg wrote...

Why do the reapers care if all life is wiped out of the galaxy?

I mean I care if all life gets wiped out of the galaxy, but I feel like given the option between

1.) Let that happen

2.) Commit Mass Genocide every 50,000 years so other races can pop up and I can genocide them 50,000 years later.

I feel like I'd just let it happen.

Two words popped into head after Reapers gave stated purpose: "seed bank." Makes more sense than genocide. Create storage facility hidden in dark space. Collect DNA samples. Wait around for end of life. Clean up those who tried to destroy life. Repopulate life with cloning, terraforming. Problem solved. Life goes on. No pointless bloodshed. Should have been me. Reapers got it wrong.

Modifié par CDHarrisUSF, 22 mars 2012 - 04:27 .