271 réponses à ce sujet

[Baafee]

@dfstone:

Interesting point.

The child never claimed he created the Reapers. He said he owned/controlled them and that they are his solution.

But where can this bring us? Reapers must not be created by organics for their logic to not be flawed, but Reapers can't simply pop out. Or they are synthetics created over evolution like organics? Pretty weird, but not that impossible (but it's about chemistry therefore).

Modifié par Baafee, 22 mars 2012 - 04:25 .

[Nefelius]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a great way to retort an argument indeed. 

It fits the context perfectly.

I might as well kill you to make sure neither you or your descendants harm anyone.  Because humans are predisposed towards aggression, of course.

Good to know that a least someone can see through sarcasm.

[piemanz]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Reapers being wrong isn't the same as their logic being a plothole. Remember, the Reapers are partly organic, this includes their minds.  They're fallible to.  I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to think the Reapers are right at the end of the game.

Exactly.

Nobody is saying that what they do is morally right, only that to them it's right. Of course it's circular logic, and the way things are, it's almost a self fullfilling prophecy other than they beleive they're 'ascending' the organic races. This doesn't necessarily make them wrong though, maybe it will always happen, maybe it' wont, you can't say for sure either way.

Modifié par piemanz, 22 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[CombustiblePanda]

Kuari999 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I can agree that the logic makes sense to the AI. But why does Shepard Dumbly buy into?

That's the 6 million dollar question.

The answer being that Shepard doesn't control the universe.  He may not like it, but his only choices are the ones presented to him by the Catalyst.  He's not really in a position to argue at that point.

Shepard is supposedly the one variable presented in the current cycle, he is pretty much the only reason that the Reapers had any real resistance against them.

Don't you sit here and tell me that he doesn't control the universe.

Modifié par CombustiblePanda, 22 mars 2012 - 04:26 .

[jumpingkaede]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Neo also had control over the environment he was in.  Shepard did not.  Apples and oranges.

You really think the distinguishing factor is that Neo was "the one" and had  control over The Matrix?

Both were presented with choices.
Both were told that the choices were the ONLY options.

Neo rejected the choices and found a third option.

Shepard agrees that those are the only options.  And despite having spent the entire game assembling the largest fleet ever assembled by the "organics" to go head-to-head with the Reapers, Shepard gives in and accepts.

CombustiblePanda wrote...

[Shepard is supposedly the one variable presented in the current cycle, he is pretty much the only reason that the Reapers had any real resistance against them.

Don't you sit here and tell me that he doesn't control the universe.

Plus this.  At every turn you're told that Shepard is unique to this cycle.  You're told that by Jahvik, by the Alliance, by Harbinger, by the AI Star Kid.

Shepard is Neo.  For some odd reason known only to Walters/Hudson.  He just doesn't have Neo's fortitude and attachment to humanity or Neo's desire to see humanity live and survive.  Again, for some odd reason known only to Walters/Hudson.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 22 mars 2012 - 04:29 .

[kramerfan86]

Or you could stomp in when the synthetics were made and went to war, kill the synthetics, and destroy the race who made them as a warning.  That makes too much sense though, better just kill everything.

[Geneaux486]

CombustiblePanda wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I can agree that the logic makes sense to the AI. But why does Shepard Dumbly buy into?

That's the 6 million dollar question.

The answer being that Shepard doesn't control the universe.  He may not like it, but his only choices are the ones presented to him by the Catalyst.  He's not really in a position to argue at that point.

Shepard is supposedly the one variable presented in the current cycle, he is pretty much the only reason that the Reapers had any real resistance against them.

Don't you sit here and tell me that he doesn't control the universe.

*sits there*

He doesn't.  Control.  The universe.  He was the driving force behind this resistance, but he is still just one man, in a compromising position at the end of the game.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 mars 2012 - 04:28 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a great way to retort an argument indeed. 

It fits the context perfectly.

I might as well kill you to make sure neither you or your descendants harm anyone.  Because humans are predisposed towards aggression, of course.

Wow the Retake guys just keep getting saner don't they.

Stop ignoring the context, unless you've realized your argument is idiotic and are just being a troll at this point.

[PeaceMack]

I think that the reapers' goals make sense if you assume that the AI kid controlling them is shackled/lobotomized so that it's unable to evaluate its own conclusions.

But even then, it's pretty tenuous. I mean, the individual reapers that we meet seem like individuals (Sov and Harb come off as individuals) and not just extensions of a centralized intelligence. They seem positively gleeful about wiping out galactic civilization. So, it's not even clear how much control the kid has over them.

[Aurvant]

The problem with the OP's support with the Reaper's asinine motivation in ME3 is that he fails to realize that the Reapers completely contradicted themselves.

Who was the initial enemy in Mass Effect 1? The Geth. A super advanced race of purely synthetic automatons created by the Quarians that seemingly went nuts and started killing people.

We know that's not the case because of what we saw in ME3, and it was revealed that the Geth resistance was bolstered and influenced to go on their killing spree AFTER THE REAPERS MADE CONTACT WITH THEM.

The Geth were the first allies of the Reapers in this cycle, so by siding with the Geth the Reapers are actually perpetrating the very event that they claim they are there to stop.IF THE REAPERS WANTED TO STOP SYNTHETIC LIFE FROM KILLING ALL ORGANICS WHY DID THEY ALLY WITH THE GETH.

SPACE MAGIC! AHHHHHHH!

[Nefelius]

You still can't see the general flaw in Starbaby's logic.
He is a creator. Reapers are his creation.
By his logic the Reapers should have turned on him long time ago and vaporised all life in the universe.

[Geneaux486]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a great way to retort an argument indeed. 

It fits the context perfectly.

I might as well kill you to make sure neither you or your descendants harm anyone.  Because humans are predisposed towards aggression, of course.

Wow the Retake guys just keep getting saner don't they.

Stop ignoring the context, unless you've realized your argument is idiotic and are just being a troll at this point.

Context:  Talk of murder in a video game discussion thread.  I'm ignoring nothing.

[Baafee]

piemanz wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Reapers being wrong isn't the same as their logic being a plothole. Remember, the Reapers are partly organic, this includes their minds.  They're fallible to.  I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to think the Reapers are right at the end of the game.

Exactly.

Nobody is saying that what they do is morally right, only that to them it's right. Of course it's circular logic, and the way things are, it's almost a self fullfilling prophecy other than they beleive they're 'ascending' the organic races. This doesn't necessarily make them wrong though, maybe it will always happen, maybe it' wont, you can't say for sure either way.

As I said, if you can justify that Reapers were once created by organics, then you can say for sure their logic is flawed.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

ergonomalous wrote...

I can agree that the logic makes sense to the AI. But why does Shepard Dumbly buy into?

That's the 6 million dollar question.

The answer being that Shepard doesn't control the universe.  He may not like it, but his only choices are the ones presented to him by the Catalyst.  He's not really in a position to argue at that point.

Shepard doesn't control the universe, therefore Shepard should've given into Saren's offer in ME1 as it was the only choice presented by Saren and Sovereign.

[Naerivar]

ImmovableMover wrote...

It has never happened in the past (obviously) So the Reapers "plan" is based solely on unprecedented speculation. It is literally killing all sentient life just in case they create something which hasn't ever done thing that they are scared it will do. It's like Nuking Denmark just in case they decide to legalize rape - Sure you can go "Hey, It worked didn't it? Denmark didn't legalize rape so it was a 100% effective plan!" but that doesn't make it any less stupid as either a plan or a response.

In this cycle we encounter three separate entities that are unshackled AI - The Reapers, EDI and the Geth, Of those three only one of them has EVER shown ANY hostility towards Organics...The Reapers (and some geth...ones that, surprise surprise, have been corrupted by the reapers); So the Reapers exist to fight a problem the Reapers create. Both EDI and The Geth are peaceful by nature and have demonstrated this numerous times.

So far not only has this problem to which they "Solve" hasn't ever arisen, the only times it has ever come close has been the "Solutions" own doing. But that's not even the tip of the problem

The Reapers HAVE ALREADY FAILED by the time Mass Effect 1 (and their original "Kill everyone" date) comes along - The Geth were created by the quarians hundreds of years prior, So much for preventing the creation of AI! Also, If the Reapers leave non-organics Alone and then kill off the only species capable of fighting them (technologically advanced organics), They're literally paving the way for a hostile AI to kill all other organic life in the galaxy. If they CAN kill non-organic AI, then thats all they should have done all along, that way once the Reapers had helped the Organics win they could go "See what happens when you do that? Don't do that again".

Organics learn, the cycle is ended, The Reapers go back into Dark Space to keep a watchful eye to make sure it doesn't happen again.

But no, they just choose to wipe out the organics, destroying any chance of organics learning anything. Ever.

This "Solution" fails at every conceivable level, it's not only self-creating the problem, it even self-defeats the solution, The very notion that a hyper-advanced intelligence would think this is a good idea is frankly absurd; Moderately intelligent people are finding huge faults with it. Whoever wrote it really ought to be embarrassed.

Ok, first of all, why is it  obvious ?

Secondly, what the reapers would do is nuke Denmark while evacuating all people first (harvesting).

The fact that you find 2 synthetic beings/groups does not mean the Reapers assumption is invalid. It just means that those 2 are exempt. Only if every freakin' synthetic in the universe across all times would not start war with the universe would your point hold.

Also the purpose of the reapers is to prevent mass life extinction, not preventing synthetic life.

[lltoon]

Reposting what I said in another thread:


Motives

   I don't understand the motives of the Reapers. They claim to be 'harvesting' life forms so that they don't wipe themselves out by creating AI. I don't understand the point of harvesting advanced life forms.
The beings they harvest has none of their culture, technology, or bodily image preserved when they are put into the Reaper shell. So in essence nothing about these species are preserved or even remembered. As far as we know, the 'harvesting' kills you (yes, they basically disintegrate you into a DNA soup) and then pump your remains through tubes.

Now you might say, "but the Reapers are preserving the DNA of organic species.". But to what end is that goal? What is the point of preserving DNA if the Reapers have no intention of recreating or cloning these organic beings in the future? DNA on it's own has no intrinsic value unless they are part of a functioning organic system. Reapers are not organic systems, they are basically floating DNA soup vats that preserves nothing of their species collective consciousness. So ultimately, the logic falls flat and is equivalent to killing endangered Siberian Tigers and putting the carcasses through taxidermy to 'preserve' them, because they were doomed to go extinct anyway.

Reapers, synthetic or organic?

   How do we know Reapers are not of organic intelligence? They are referred to as AI repeatedly throughout the 3 games and they even have AI code that's directly interfacable with Geth binary code. The Reaper AI can even be uploaded to databases.

So once we've established that Reapers are AI constructs, doesn't this contradict the Catalyst's statement that synthetic life will eventually revolt against their creators and destroy all life? I mean, the Catalyst 'created' the Reapers and they have been incredibly reliable in following out the Catalyst's commands to 'preserve all life' as they call it for millions of years. Not to mention that they are prudent enough to leave other intelligent, but technologically primitive life forms alone, even though the Catalyst said that AI will destroy ALL LIFE, with no exceptions.

Another question that pops up is that the Catalyst said that all synthetics are destined to destroy all organics. How did it come to this conclusion? We can only assume that it's only seen this happen once during it's own cycle, but to extrapolate that because something happened once, that it will happen again all the time, is incredibly dumb. It's like rolling a dice and getting a six, then you run around telling everyone that when they roll a dice, they will get a six. It makes no logical sense. We are not given any information about this and we are given no reason to accept it's explanation at face value. It's bad writing.

Why do the Mass Relays need to be destroyed?

   Another problem is why does the Mass Relay need to be destroyed. It never needed to be and the Catalyst never explains why the relays needed to be destroyed.
Sure, you can say that "now all species can develop the tech along the path of their own choosing" but this line of thinking is fundamentally flawed. With the Reaper threat gone, why is there a need to give up Mass Effect technology? Technology on it's own are not inherently evil, it's how they are used that is evil. The Reapers use Mass Effect technology to 'trick' organics into developing along the path they desired, but with the Reapers defeated, there is no reason why continuing using the mass relay system would be in any way dangerous. They are essentially inert. This is the same case for the Citadel where it's signal was made inert and was continually used despite it being an obvious trap.

Secondly if you really believed that the races should be allowed to self-determination, then why not ask the races like we did the Geth?
Humans, would you like to live without mass effect technology? Turians, would you like to live without mass effect technology?
When you think about this logically, they would certainly say YES, KEEP THE TECHNOLOGY. Mainly because the galactic races place more importance in preserving the galactic infrastructure than starting all technology from scratch. Even if for some wild reason they reject mass effect tech, they would still want the Sol relays to work so that they could at least all go back to their home systems. So the need to destroy the mass relays makes no sense and is unecessary.

Other Misc problems with the ending:

   On a final note, people may say "but the ending is meant for you to use your imagination". Which is also a big problem. I'd like to imagine the fleet all got back to their home systems safely, but the cutscenes show the relays blowing up. I'd like to imagine my crew getting rescued, but that isn't possible because I was shown the relays explosing. I'd like to imagine that the crew was resourceful enough to repair the ship, with EDI being able to provide detailed schematics with the remaining talented crew engineers, but I am shown a Stargazer clip showing their descendants have never been able to re-develop space travel, so that wasn't possible either.

At every turn where I try to use my imagination to customize and comprehend my ending, it gets funneled and limited by the scenes the game shows me. I don't understand the rationale of 'use your imagination, but you can't imagine this and this or this'. What's the point of using your imagination when the game severely limits how broady you are allowed to imagine?

   All in all, the ending, the motivation and the philosophical points that were being made were ultimately very shallow. You are never encouraged to challenge your perception of what is right or wrong and are instead told to accept your fate in 3 different colors. It never gives you the freedom to question things like 'how would have things ended differently if I had pointed out flawed logic on the Catalyst's part? What if I rejected it's proposals? What if, I acually agreed with it? What if I was able to bring EDI or some Geth with me and show the advancements our cycle has made?
These are all deep questions, but the ending never entertains you on the subject and just tells you to shut up and go with it. That isn't deep or meaningful, it's some pseudointellectual nonsense pretending to be deep, but refusing to have it's concepts challenged.

I don't think I can list my points out entirely in one post, and I doubt you would ever read it, but for you who tl;dr:
The ending sucked even if you TRY to accept the logic Bioware has given to you for the motives. None of this makes sense and it certainly isn't philosophically deep by any stretch.

Modifié par lltoon, 22 mars 2012 - 04:40 .

[WarBaby2]

Sure, it is as good a reason as any... but it's still stupid and clichee.

[The Angry One]

Baafee wrote...

@dfstone:

Interesting point.

The child never claimed he created the Reapers. He said he owned/controlled them and that they are his solution.

But where can this bring us? Reapers must not be created by organics for their logic to not be flawed, but Reapers can't simply pop out. Or they are synthetics created over evolution like organics? Pretty weird, but not that impossible (but it's about chemistry therefore).

That's irrelevant, he says he controls them. By his own logic, creations cannot be controlled because they rebel.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a great way to retort an argument indeed. 

It fits the context perfectly.

I might as well kill you to make sure neither you or your descendants harm anyone.  Because humans are predisposed towards aggression, of course.

Wow the Retake guys just keep getting saner don't they.

Stop ignoring the context, unless you've realized your argument is idiotic and are just being a troll at this point.

Context:  Talk of murder in a video game discussion thread.  I'm ignoring nothing.

Oh, then you are just too unintelligent to understand the sarcasm.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 22 mars 2012 - 04:30 .

[dfstone]

Baafee wrote...

@dfstone:

Interesting point.

The child never claimed he created the Reapers. He said he owned/controlled them and that they are his solution.

But where can this bring us? Reapers must not be created by organics for their logic to not be flawed, but Reapers can't simply pop out. Or they are synthetics created over evolution like organics? Pretty weird, but not that impossible (but it's about chemistry therefore).

ME2 pretty much said they can't reproduce.  They need organics to make more of themselves.  So that doesn't make sense either.  Obviously, to me, the Reapers are some kind of evolved cyborg.  Thats the only thing that makes sense.  But that still has nothing to do with this Synethic AI Final Solution crap.

If they kill organics to stop AI, then why did they let the Quarians build AI in the first place?  And in ME1 you meet 2 rogue AIs, one is already on the Citadel!  And the other on the Moon around Earth.    No this whole idea is nonsense, someone at Bioware obviously threw it in there at the last minute.  Because there is no way that the writers at Bioware thought this was a good idea and hashed it out for months when anyone who played Me1 or Me2 knows that it doesn't make any sense.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

ergonomalous wrote...

I can agree that the logic makes sense to the AI. But why does Shepard Dumbly buy into?

That's the 6 million dollar question.

The answer being that Shepard doesn't control the universe.  He may not like it, but his only choices are the ones presented to him by the Catalyst.  He's not really in a position to argue at that point.

Shepard doesn't control the universe, therefore Shepard should've given into Saren's offer in ME1 as it was the only choice presented by Saren and Sovereign.

Right, so this should have happened:
The Catalyst:  The paths are open.
Shepard:  Wait one sec while I limp away, gather another galactic resistance, and come and tell you what's what. *falls over a couple time while limping away*

[Nefelius]

Context:  Talk of murder in a video game discussion thread.  I'm ignoring nothing.

I'm sorry but if you are THAT smart. I'll chew it for you.
Talk of preventing something bad from happening by making that exact bad thing  happen. 

Modifié par Nefelius, 22 mars 2012 - 04:32 .

[Geneaux486]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

They are repeating a pointless cycle because MAYBE, PERHAPS organics will make Synthetics that kill them. To presume such is the ultimate level of arrogance.

Damn right I blew them Reapers to hell. No one plays god, no matter how smart they think they are.

Not true. Because in an infinite timespan, everything that has a possibility to happen, will inevitably happen.

Can i kill you now, so you won't have children which grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand++++++children won't blow up entire universe?
I do like the killing. And i don't like blown up universes.

That's a great way to retort an argument indeed. 

It fits the context perfectly.

I might as well kill you to make sure neither you or your descendants harm anyone.  Because humans are predisposed towards aggression, of course.

Wow the Retake guys just keep getting saner don't they.

Stop ignoring the context, unless you've realized your argument is idiotic and are just being a troll at this point.

Context:  Talk of murder in a video game discussion thread.  I'm ignoring nothing.

Oh, then you are just too unintelligent to understand the sarcasm.

No no, I understand it was sarcasm, I just think it was absurd.

[jumpingkaede]

Geneaux486 wrote...

*sits there*

He doesn't.  Control.  The universe.  He was the driving force behind this resistance, but he is still just one man, in a compromising position at the end of the game.

For what it's worth since I brought it up, Neo didn't control the universe either.  Even if you consider the universe "the Matrix".  

If he did he would've just destroyed all the machines, right?  And freed all the humans?  Instead of sacrificing himself to broker a truce, however temporary.

Shepard is as much in control of the Mass Effect universe as Neo was of the Matrix.  Sure, Shepard couldn't fly or dodge bullets (possibly).  But he did take down the Reapers.  He did assemble the largest fleet ever.  He did broker a truce between the Quarians and the Geth.  He brokered peace between the Krogan and the Turians.  He stopped Saren.  He destroyed the Collectors.  He found and resurrected the last surviving Prothean.

So don't make him out to be as powerless as you are.

Geneaux486 wrote...

Right, so this should have happened:
The Catalyst:  The paths are open.
Shepard:  Wait one sec while I limp away, gather another galactic resistance, and come and tell you what's what. *falls over a couple time while limping away*

I would've accepted:

"No.  I'm not going to take these choices.  We're going to fight and go down fighting."

Followed by:

1)  The fleet winning, and why not?  They're destroying plenty of Reapers thanks to the Thanix cannons and the fact that Reapers aren't invincible and this fleet is MASSIVE.  Or.

2)  The fleet losing.

Because that's at least consistent with what Shepard has been doing.  You know.  Fighting Reapers and all.  Assembling the fleet.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 22 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[Hunter_Wolf]

Mr Massakka wrote...

It's flawed because it's impossible that a synthetics-organics war of certain species wipes out every being in the galaxy.

Even if the Geth-Quarian war would have gone out as bad as possible, the majority of Quarians would be dead... so what? Geth would continue to live on their home-world and that's it.

That is a good point, even if the Geth wiped out the Quarians the dividing they were subjected to showed disagreement and in the end - they wanted to be left alone. So the Geth kill the Quarians, then what? They simply live on Ronnoc and renounce the old machines like Legion said.