271 réponses à ce sujet

[Fruit of the Doom]

Geneaux486 wrote...

No no, I understand it was sarcasm, I just think it was absurd.

At this point, I have trouble believing you understand anything.

Much less sarcasm.

[NekOoNinja]

Mixorz wrote...

CarolSephard wrote...

You can teach the dog instead of killing it ^^

Cant teach an old dog new tricks. Human saying ironically.

Funny how I can teach my 13 yrs old Persian cat new tricks though.

But, then again, not all cats or dogs are the same.

[Geneaux486]

jumpingkaede wrote...


Shepard is as much in control of the Mass Effect universe as Neo was of the Matrix.  Sure, Shepard couldn't fly or dodge bullets (possibly).  But he did take down the Reapers.  

He didn't take down the Reapers alone.  He doesn't fly, or dodge bullets.  He is a wounded soldier at the end of the game.  He does not control the universe.

[Ziggeh]

 I have two questions: 
1) Where his evidence that AI inevitably wipes out all life in the galaxy? How many times does that have to happen before you can declare it an inevitability?2) Is this really a bad thing? Organic life wipes out other organic life all the time and this is all cool? We're given a pretty compelling argument that artificial life is still life. Who's he to say that this isn't a process that holds value? 

He clearly doesn't give a monkeys about the cultures or suffering, simply that some organics get to live somewhere. Why? Is there inherant value in one over the other? What was special about Walter? Why did Claire need to raise her own baby? How did the island move?

Modifié par Ziggeh, 22 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[guacamayus]

ofcourse it makes sense, it's a fkin AI, it's logic is cold and ruthless because it doesn't have morals or feelings. It doesn't give a crap about individuals it's only purpose is to keep life going and the cycle does exactly that... an organic being would never come up with a solution like that, that's why it makes sense, again this is an AI we are talking about.

[Geneaux486]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No no, I understand it was sarcasm, I just think it was absurd.

At this point, I have trouble believing you understand anything.

Much less sarcasm.

Yeah, the feeling is mutual.

[CombustiblePanda]

Geneaux486 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...


Shepard is as much in control of the Mass Effect universe as Neo was of the Matrix.  Sure, Shepard couldn't fly or dodge bullets (possibly).  But he did take down the Reapers.  

He didn't take down the Reapers alone.  He doesn't fly, or dodge bullets.  He is a wounded soldier at the end of the game.  He does not control the universe.

You keep going back to the "Universe".

I just want some clarification, what do you consider to be the "Universe"? (Starchild? Reapers?)
I'm just a little confused is all.

Modifié par CombustiblePanda, 22 mars 2012 - 04:34 .

[piemanz]

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

It's flawed because it's impossible that a synthetics-organics war of certain species wipes out every being in the galaxy.

Even if the Geth-Quarian war would have gone out as bad as possible, the majority of Quarians would be dead... so what? Geth would continue to live on their home-world and that's it.

That is a good point, even if the Geth wiped out the Quarians the dividing they were subjected to showed disagreement and in the end - they wanted to be left alone. So the Geth kill the Quarians, then what? They simply live on Ronnoc and renounce the old machines like Legion said.

Fast forward a thousand years, the geth are attacked by some random organic race, the Geth come to a concesus that organics are more trouble than they're worth.

That's all it takes.

[Aurvant]

The Angry One wrote...

Baafee wrote...

@dfstone:

Interesting point.

The child never claimed he created the Reapers. He said he owned/controlled them and that they are his solution.

But where can this bring us? Reapers must not be created by organics for their logic to not be flawed, but Reapers can't simply pop out. Or they are synthetics created over evolution like organics? Pretty weird, but not that impossible (but it's about chemistry therefore).

That's irrelevant, he says he controls them. By his own logic, creations cannot be controlled because they rebel.

It is inferred that the Catalyst is the creator of the Reapers, and his own words support it.

When you first speak to him he says "Perhaps, I control the Reapers. They are my solution."

The child is implying that the Reapers begin with him and that it was the Catalyst who first devised the ****ty reasoning that has now reduced the Reapers to space janitors.

[Fruit of the Doom]

jumpingkaede wrote...

1)  The fleet winning, and why not?  They're destroying plenty of Reapers thanks to the Thanix cannons and the fact that Reapers aren't invincible and this fleet is MASSIVE.  Or.

Speaking of Thanix cannons, I don't recall either the Normandy or anyone else for that matter actually using one.

Despite being a potent reverse-engineered Reaper super-weapon, they are never mentioned or shown.

Just "Thanix" missiles at one point, which probably are just made by the same company and not operating by Magneto-Hydrodynamic principles.

[Geneaux486]

CombustiblePanda wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...


Shepard is as much in control of the Mass Effect universe as Neo was of the Matrix.  Sure, Shepard couldn't fly or dodge bullets (possibly).  But he did take down the Reapers.  

He didn't take down the Reapers alone.  He doesn't fly, or dodge bullets.  He is a wounded soldier at the end of the game.  He does not control the universe.

You keep going back to the "Universe".

I just want some clarification, what do you consider to be the "Universe"? (Starchild? Reapers?)
I'm just a little confused is all.

By universe I mean the actual universe.  Shepard, however charismatic, powerful, and determined he may be, is not capable of arguing with or defeating the Catalyst at the end of the game, wounded, and by himself.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No no, I understand it was sarcasm, I just think it was absurd.

At this point, I have trouble believing you understand anything.

Much less sarcasm.

Yeah, the feeling is mutual.

XD  Yep, the point when you know it's not worth continuing an argument is when the other person says something boiling down to "NO U"

[Kuari999]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

1)  The fleet winning, and why not?  They're destroying plenty of Reapers thanks to the Thanix cannons and the fact that Reapers aren't invincible and this fleet is MASSIVE.  Or.

Speaking of Thanix cannons, I don't recall either the Normandy or anyone else for that matter actually using one.

Despite being a potent reverse-engineered Reaper super-weapon, they are never mentioned or shown.

Just "Thanix" missiles at one point, which probably are just made by the same company and not operating by Magneto-Hydrodynamic principles.

Its the cannons you installed in ME2 and shown very briefly in ME3

[savionen]

Geneaux486 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...


Shepard is as much in control of the Mass Effect universe as Neo was of the Matrix.  Sure, Shepard couldn't fly or dodge bullets (possibly).  But he did take down the Reapers.  

He didn't take down the Reapers alone.  He doesn't fly, or dodge bullets.  He is a wounded soldier at the end of the game.  He does not control the universe.

What would any of that done against the Architect?

[NekOoNinja]

piemanz wrote...

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

It's flawed because it's impossible that a synthetics-organics war of certain species wipes out every being in the galaxy.

Even if the Geth-Quarian war would have gone out as bad as possible, the majority of Quarians would be dead... so what? Geth would continue to live on their home-world and that's it.

That is a good point, even if the Geth wiped out the Quarians the dividing they were subjected to showed disagreement and in the end - they wanted to be left alone. So the Geth kill the Quarians, then what? They simply live on Ronnoc and renounce the old machines like Legion said.

Fast forward a thousand years, the geth are attacked by some random organic race, the Geth come to a concesus that organics are more trouble than they're worth.

That's all it takes.

That could also happen with any other organic race. They "who started it" is interchangable.

[Geneaux486]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No no, I understand it was sarcasm, I just think it was absurd.

At this point, I have trouble believing you understand anything.

Much less sarcasm.

Yeah, the feeling is mutual.

XD  Yep, the point when you know it's not worth continuing an argument is when the other person says something boiling down to "NO U"

No, that point is when the other person thinks talking about murder in a video game discussion is good sarcasm.  Sarcasm?  Yes.  Good sarcasm?  No.

[Aurvant]

piemanz wrote...

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

It's flawed because it's impossible that a synthetics-organics war of certain species wipes out every being in the galaxy.

Even if the Geth-Quarian war would have gone out as bad as possible, the majority of Quarians would be dead... so what? Geth would continue to live on their home-world and that's it.

That is a good point, even if the Geth wiped out the Quarians the dividing they were subjected to showed disagreement and in the end - they wanted to be left alone. So the Geth kill the Quarians, then what? They simply live on Ronnoc and renounce the old machines like Legion said.

Fast forward a thousand years, the geth are attacked by some random organic race, the Geth come to a concesus that organics are more trouble than they're worth.

That's all it takes.

You're assuming that in a thousand years that an organic race would attack the Geth, and there is no evidence to support that the Geth would actively return to war. In fact, without the Reaper's influence on them, the Geth made it a point to ACTIVELY SEEK PEACE.

You're trying to shoehorn speculation in there to support broken logic.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Kuari999 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

1)  The fleet winning, and why not?  They're destroying plenty of Reapers thanks to the Thanix cannons and the fact that Reapers aren't invincible and this fleet is MASSIVE.  Or.

Speaking of Thanix cannons, I don't recall either the Normandy or anyone else for that matter actually using one.

Despite being a potent reverse-engineered Reaper super-weapon, they are never mentioned or shown.

Just "Thanix" missiles at one point, which probably are just made by the same company and not operating by Magneto-Hydrodynamic principles.

Its the cannons you installed in ME2 and shown very briefly in ME3

I know what they are, I just said what they are.

They are not shown in-game (ME3) though, as far as I noticed.  They are just mentioned in the War Asset description of the Normandy, if you installed them.

Even the Turian ships still used normal mass accelerator weaponry.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 22 mars 2012 - 04:41 .

[Casterdael]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No no, I understand it was sarcasm, I just think it was absurd.

At this point, I have trouble believing you understand anything.

Much less sarcasm.

Even so, retorting a scientific argument with fictional (note the sarcasm!) and downright absurd 'arguments' doesn't relate much to an argument, even if its sarcastic. I don't think we're in kindergarten anymore. 

[JulienJaden]

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

Destroying the synthetics may not solve the problem, but killing the organics doesn't solve anything, either.

Also, what would be more successful:
1) Showing up every 50.000 years to wipe out all advanced races and disappearing without a trace, just to prevent something that may or may not happen, or
2) being there all the time and telling organics: "Dudes, you can do whatever you want, but if you try and create AIs, we're gonna come and kick their asses, and possibly yours, too."

I'm gonna go with 2)
Their behavior (hiding outside the galaxy doesn't make sense for that goal. There are better ways to achieve it and maintain order. If they established themselves as guardians of organic life, protecting them from their own mistakes and letting them know what they are there for, they would be respected, by some at least.

If it was up to me and I had to come up with something that makes more sense right now, I'd go with self-preservation. They hybernate, then they come back, own everyone, take what technology they've developed that might come in handy, convert thee organics into new Reapers and go back to hybernating. Over time, they've become arrogant, so they see themselves as almost divine beings.
I'd say that sounds more reasonable than circular logic. At least self-preservation is a valid goal. And one could argue that it's easier to raid the galaxy once every 50.000 years than to maintain a galactic empire. If people know you're there, they might come up with plans to get rid of you.

[Hunter_Wolf]

piemanz wrote...

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

It's flawed because it's impossible that a synthetics-organics war of certain species wipes out every being in the galaxy.

Even if the Geth-Quarian war would have gone out as bad as possible, the majority of Quarians would be dead... so what? Geth would continue to live on their home-world and that's it.

That is a good point, even if the Geth wiped out the Quarians the dividing they were subjected to showed disagreement and in the end - they wanted to be left alone. So the Geth kill the Quarians, then what? They simply live on Ronnoc and renounce the old machines like Legion said.

Fast forward a thousand years, the geth are attacked by some random organic race, the Geth come to a concesus that organics are more trouble than they're worth.

That's all it takes.

Or some planetoid could crash into Ronnoc and destroy it, Geth reach a consensus and decide to kill themselves since they'll never be at peace.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Casterdael wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No no, I understand it was sarcasm, I just think it was absurd.

At this point, I have trouble believing you understand anything.

Much less sarcasm.

Even so, retorting a scientific argument with fictional (note the sarcasm!) and downright absurd 'arguments' doesn't relate much to an argument, even if its sarcastic. I don't think we're in kindergarten anymore. 

It was hardly absurd, in fact my guess is the fact that it makes more sense than your crappy ending is what has you guys' tushies in such a knot.

[guacamayus]

Sion1138 wrote...

Personally, I find the idea far too unfounded and simplistic, black and white and nothing in between. Just for what reason would synthetic beings (of reason) ever want to destroy all organic life?

As it stands, the game itself within it's world, proved this to be wrong on several occasions. The Geth never wanted to harm anyone and reunited with their Creators in the game, the Protheans stopped their development of Synthetics.

Even if synthetic life were to destroy the organic, there's still life. It's synthetic but it's still life so it's not all destroyed. I didn't even want to go down that avenue but who's to say what mode of life is better or worse. What does synthetic mean anyway? I don't see a difference between life and life.

It seems to me the Reapers are the only one's doing the destroying. They are stuck in a feedback
loop, or rather the Catalyst is.

The Catalyst believes that wiping the most advanced civilizations before they create a technological singularity is the only way to keep life going, that's the reason they harvest people, why would it kill synthetics if the problem is always created by organics? cycle after cylce the pattern repeats itself, the most logical conclusion would be to control the problem from it's roots, which is exactly what the catalyst is doing.

[Aurvant]

Also, if anyone wants to try and take a shot at explaining that somehow leaping in to a beam of light and committing suicide rewrites the DNA of every being in the galaxy, i'd like to know how that works.

Why does that work? WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?