271 réponses à ce sujet

[Nefelius]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No no, I understand it was sarcasm, I just think it was absurd.

At this point, I have trouble believing you understand anything.

Much less sarcasm.

Yeah, the feeling is mutual.

XD  Yep, the point when you know it's not worth continuing an argument is when the other person says something boiling down to "NO U"

No, that point is when the other person thinks talking about murder in a video game discussion is good sarcasm.  Sarcasm?  Yes.  Good sarcasm?  No.

Following that logic the game which plot is about numerous murders,bullying, treachery, thievery and even MASS GENOCIDE is bad.
Stop playing ME people. This guy says that this game is bad. Nothing to see here, move along.

[Galf706]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

1)  The fleet winning, and why not?  They're destroying plenty of Reapers thanks to the Thanix cannons and the fact that Reapers aren't invincible and this fleet is MASSIVE.  Or.

Speaking of Thanix cannons, I don't recall either the Normandy or anyone else for that matter actually using one.

Despite being a potent reverse-engineered Reaper super-weapon, they are never mentioned or shown.

Just "Thanix" missiles at one point, which probably are just made by the same company and not operating by Magneto-Hydrodynamic principles.

Its the cannons you installed in ME2 and shown very briefly in ME3

I know what they are, I just said what they are.

They are not shown in-game (ME3) though, as far as I noticed.  They are just mentioned in the War Asset description of the Normandy, if you installed them.

Even the Turian ships still used normal mass accelerator weaponry.

You see multiple Thanix beams in the final fleet battle, and several codex entries mention outfitting ships with the technology.

[piemanz]

Aurvant wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

It's flawed because it's impossible that a synthetics-organics war of certain species wipes out every being in the galaxy.

Even if the Geth-Quarian war would have gone out as bad as possible, the majority of Quarians would be dead... so what? Geth would continue to live on their home-world and that's it.

That is a good point, even if the Geth wiped out the Quarians the dividing they were subjected to showed disagreement and in the end - they wanted to be left alone. So the Geth kill the Quarians, then what? They simply live on Ronnoc and renounce the old machines like Legion said.

Fast forward a thousand years, the geth are attacked by some random organic race, the Geth come to a concesus that organics are more trouble than they're worth.

That's all it takes.

You're assuming that in a thousand years that an organic race would attack the Geth, and there is no evidence to support that the Geth would actively return to war. In fact, without the Reaper's influence on them, the Geth made it a point to ACTIVELY SEEK PEACE.

You're trying to shoehorn speculation in there to support broken logic.

I'm not saying it will happen, only that it wouldn't take much to make it happen. Not to mention there could be hundreds more AI developed in that time and it only takes one or two  to become scentient and evolve exponentially.

[CombustiblePanda]

Geneaux486 wrote...

CombustiblePanda wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...


Shepard is as much in control of the Mass Effect universe as Neo was of the Matrix.  Sure, Shepard couldn't fly or dodge bullets (possibly).  But he did take down the Reapers.  

He didn't take down the Reapers alone.  He doesn't fly, or dodge bullets.  He is a wounded soldier at the end of the game.  He does not control the universe.

You keep going back to the "Universe".

I just want some clarification, what do you consider to be the "Universe"? (Starchild? Reapers?)
I'm just a little confused is all.

By universe I mean the actual universe.  Shepard, however charismatic, powerful, and determined he may be, is not capable of arguing with or defeating the Catalyst at the end of the game, wounded, and by himself.

You know, Shepard did die once, and he was brought back to life.
That's kind of the equivalent of giving the Universe the finger.

But in all seriousness Shepard is a fighter, he's a soldier, I'm pretty sure he would never accept his "fate" even if God himself came down and spoke with him. In the past games, Shepard has never shown to just role over and accept the inevitible,  if there's an alternative, he will find it.

[Computron2000]

Avatar231278 wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

CarolSephard wrote...

You can teach the dog instead of killing it ^^

Cant teach an old dog new tricks. Human saying ironically.

Mythbusters proved that wrong. Taught old, uneducated dogs 10 tricks in less than a week.

This.

Any living creature can learn regardless of age unless they have some illness. Its takes a longer time but it will work. Also nothing makes organics work faster than the threat of annihilation. Look at the council in game.

[jumpingkaede]

Geneaux486 wrote...

He didn't take down the Reapers alone.  He doesn't fly, or dodge bullets.  He is a wounded soldier at the end of the game.  He does not control the universe.

Shepard's "power" isn't dodging bullets or punching super fast or flying.  That's Neo's gig.  I agree.

Shepard's "power" is his charisma.  His influence.  His obstinacy, as much as Neo's was.  His "power" was the fleet.  His "power" was having the Geth, the Quarians, the Salarians, the Turians, the Asari, the Krogans, and the Humans, united for the first time in any cycle (we are told that) in common purpose.  

Does him being a "wounded soldier at the end of the game" change all that?  Does him being a "wounded soldier" change any of that?   

[Fruit of the Doom]

Aurvant wrote...

Also, if anyone wants to try and take a shot at explaining that somehow leaping in to a beam of light and committing suicide rewrites the DNA of every being in the galaxy, i'd like to know how that works.

Why does that work? WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?

SPACE MAGIC


(ALSO, ROBOTS DO NOT HAVE DNA!)

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 22 mars 2012 - 04:47 .

[Divitiacus]

piemanz wrote...

But  you make peace between the Geth and Quarians so the Catalyst must be wrong

Irrelevant.

A: Because it only proves you made peace with them at this particular point in time, it doesn't prove the peace will last.

B: Regardless of whether the Catalyst is right or not, it beleives in what it's saying, so to him/it the logic is perfectly sound.

C: The Catalyst  doesn't say that peace won't exist between organics and synthetics, only at some point sythetics will destroy organics. It doesn't necessarily mean the sythetics will start out as the agressors either.

Who cares? And eventually the Universe suffers heat death. If you're basing things on conjecture and the probabilities as time approache infinity, it's all futile.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Galf706 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

1)  The fleet winning, and why not?  They're destroying plenty of Reapers thanks to the Thanix cannons and the fact that Reapers aren't invincible and this fleet is MASSIVE.  Or.

Speaking of Thanix cannons, I don't recall either the Normandy or anyone else for that matter actually using one.

Despite being a potent reverse-engineered Reaper super-weapon, they are never mentioned or shown.

Just "Thanix" missiles at one point, which probably are just made by the same company and not operating by Magneto-Hydrodynamic principles.

Its the cannons you installed in ME2 and shown very briefly in ME3

I know what they are, I just said what they are.

They are not shown in-game (ME3) though, as far as I noticed.  They are just mentioned in the War Asset description of the Normandy, if you installed them.

Even the Turian ships still used normal mass accelerator weaponry.

You see multiple Thanix beams in the final fleet battle, and several codex entries mention outfitting ships with the technology.

Uh, screencap?

[piemanz]

Computron2000 wrote...

Avatar231278 wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

CarolSephard wrote...

You can teach the dog instead of killing it ^^

Cant teach an old dog new tricks. Human saying ironically.

Mythbusters proved that wrong. Taught old, uneducated dogs 10 tricks in less than a week.

This.

Any living creature can learn regardless of age unless they have some illness. Its takes a longer time but it will work. Also nothing makes organics work faster than the threat of annihilation. Look at the council in game.

Oh come on, even if most of the people decided to tow the line, the chances that everyone will is zero.

[Geneaux486]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Casterdael wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No no, I understand it was sarcasm, I just think it was absurd.

At this point, I have trouble believing you understand anything.

Much less sarcasm.

Even so, retorting a scientific argument with fictional (note the sarcasm!) and downright absurd 'arguments' doesn't relate much to an argument, even if its sarcastic. I don't think we're in kindergarten anymore. 

It was hardly absurd, in fact my guess is the fact that it makes more sense than your crappy ending is what has you guys' tushies in such a knot.

Right I think I remember Jonathan Swift saying something similar.

[M2S SOLID JOSH]

as one person said. we were built to kill organics to prevent them to create ai from killing them...yup makes perfect sense

[Geneaux486]

Nefelius wrote...Following that logic the game which plot is about numerous murders,bullying, treachery, thievery and even MASS GENOCIDE is bad.
Stop playing ME people. This guy says that this game is bad. Nothing to see here, move along.

Strawmen do not help your credibility.

[jumpingkaede]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

I know what they are, I just said what they are.

They are not shown in-game (ME3) though, as far as I noticed.  They are just mentioned in the War Asset description of the Normandy, if you installed them.

Even the Turian ships still used normal mass accelerator weaponry.

You're right, although we're also told that the Turian fleet has been installing them.

It was good enough to take out a Collector Ship in one shot.  It was, after all, reverse engineered from Sovereign's weapons.  Why couldn't it have been good enough to give the fleet a significant advantage against the Reapers?

After all, I think it's safe to assume that this is the first time EVER in any cycle that a Reaper is destroyed 3 years before the Reaping begins.  So it's reasonable to assume that this is the first time EVER that the organics had 2 years of non-reaping to investigate and reverse engineer said weaponr.y

Speculation, yes.  But safe speculation since in every previous cycle the Reapers hit the Citadel and t he Reaping began immediately.

[lltoon]

Aurvant wrote...

Also, if anyone wants to try and take a shot at explaining that somehow leaping in to a beam of light and committing suicide rewrites the DNA of every being in the galaxy, i'd like to know how that works.

Why does that work? WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?

Even if I'm willing to stretch my suspension of disbelief that far, I have to ask:

Why can't Shepard just take the elevator back down, grab the Illusive man's corpse and throw that into the damn beam? I mean the Illusive man is half-synthetic too.

[Halo Quea]

Sion1138 wrote...

Personally, I find the idea far too unfounded and simplistic, black and white and nothing in between. Just for what reason would synthetic beings (of reason) ever want to destroy all organic life?

Exactly, it's a human paranoia, that the machines we build are going to one day kill all of us. It's a theme that's replayed in scifi, but it's also a very REAL paranoia in the REAL world.

I think it stems mostly from the fact that some of the most advanced technology in the world today is applied in war machines like fighters, tanks, missiles and smart weapons like drones.   Because of this, it's probably safe to infer that the very first truly sentient program created on Earth will be a war machine. So the first things that this new synthetic intelligence will learn, is HOW to kill human beings.

[piemanz]

Divitiacus wrote...

piemanz wrote...

But  you make peace between the Geth and Quarians so the Catalyst must be wrong

Irrelevant.

A: Because it only proves you made peace with them at this particular point in time, it doesn't prove the peace will last.

B: Regardless of whether the Catalyst is right or not, it beleives in what it's saying, so to him/it the logic is perfectly sound.

C: The Catalyst  doesn't say that peace won't exist between organics and synthetics, only at some point sythetics will destroy organics. It doesn't necessarily mean the sythetics will start out as the agressors either.

Who cares? And eventually the Universe suffers heat death. If you're basing things on conjecture and the probabilities as time approache infinity, it's all futile.

.....

Obviousy I wouldn't care, but if you were immortal like a certain race of giant machines like we're talking about you might.

[Fruit of the Doom]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

I know what they are, I just said what they are.

They are not shown in-game (ME3) though, as far as I noticed.  They are just mentioned in the War Asset description of the Normandy, if you installed them.

Even the Turian ships still used normal mass accelerator weaponry.

You're right, although we're also told that the Turian fleet has been installing them.

It was good enough to take out a Collector Ship in one shot.  It was, after all, reverse engineered from Sovereign's weapons.  Why couldn't it have been good enough to give the fleet a significant advantage against the Reapers?

After all, I think it's safe to assume that this is the first time EVER in any cycle that a Reaper is destroyed 3 years before the Reaping begins.  So it's reasonable to assume that this is the first time EVER that the organics had 2 years of non-reaping to investigate and reverse engineer said weaponr.y

Speculation, yes.  But safe speculation since in every previous cycle the Reapers hit the Citadel and t he Reaping began immediately.

It probably would have given us too good of a chance of winning conventionally, eliminating the need for Space Casper.  So they were dropped into a plothole... errr... Space Magic Land.

[jumpingkaede]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Uh, screencap?

I don't remember if it was a codex entry or what.  There's this:

"The SSV Leipzig was the first Alliance frigate to field-test the Thanix cannon, a compact version of a Reaper weapon developed after the Battle of the Citadel. The Leipzig's captain was so pleased with the results, she gave her unconditional recommendation that the Alliance begin mass-producing the cannon as soon as possible."

It's possible Garrus just says it in a conversation.  But I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that the Turian fleet had the thanix cannons installed.

[Lanceare]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

The problem with this logic is that Starbrat talks as if this is certain to happen. The continued existence of organic life makes it self-evident that this doomsday scenario has never happened.

It doesn't happen because for billions of years he has been keeping it from happening.

I'd imagine that billions of years ago organic life was almost wiped out by synthetic life, thus his 'solution' of creating this cycle and enforcing some kind of balance. That or he's full of crap.

[Hunter_Wolf]

Aurvant wrote...

Also, if anyone wants to try and take a shot at explaining that somehow leaping in to a beam of light and committing suicide rewrites the DNA of every being in the galaxy, i'd like to know how that works.

Why does that work? WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?

Space Magic, duh. Didn't you play the game?!

[Fruit of the Doom]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Uh, screencap?

I don't remember if it was a codex entry or what.  There's this:

"The SSV Leipzig was the first Alliance frigate to field-test the Thanix cannon, a compact version of a Reaper weapon developed after the Battle of the Citadel. The Leipzig's captain was so pleased with the results, she gave her unconditional recommendation that the Alliance begin mass-producing the cannon as soon as possible."

It's possible Garrus just says it in a conversation.  But I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that the Turian fleet had the thanix cannons installed.

I know the codex mentions them, but we never actually SEE them being used.  Just normal mass accelerater rounds.

Thanix cannons are obvious due to being giant beams instead of projectiles.

[Hunter_Wolf]

Lanceare wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

The problem with this logic is that Starbrat talks as if this is certain to happen. The continued existence of organic life makes it self-evident that this doomsday scenario has never happened.

It doesn't happen because for billions of years he has been keeping it from happening.

I'd imagine that billions of years ago organic life was almost wiped out by synthetic life, thus his 'solution' of creating this cycle and enforcing some kind of balance. That or he's full of crap.

I'd wager Reapers were said Synthetic life  that merely manifested on their own. They are biometal after all.

[Aurvant]

Lanceare wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

The problem with this logic is that Starbrat talks as if this is certain to happen. The continued existence of organic life makes it self-evident that this doomsday scenario has never happened.

It doesn't happen because for billions of years he has been keeping it from happening.

I'd imagine that billions of years ago organic life was almost wiped out by synthetic life, thus his 'solution' of creating this cycle and enforcing some kind of balance. That or he's full of crap.

And thus, the Reapers allied with the only synthetic life-form in the galaxy so that they could make the killing of organics easier so...that...they could keep....the synthetics....from killing organics before they..could...make...synthet----

ERROR ERROR ERROR.

[Baafee]

What about this:

That super-AI singularity never happened yet. if it existed, it would outclass even the Reapers intellect, therefore throwing the galaxy in a state where it is impossible to prevent the course of the events.

Simply said, the organics creation would become so powerful that even the Reapers wouldn't be able to stop it.

Also, it is possible that the "wiping out all life in the galaxy" includes wiping out the Reapers.

Modifié par Baafee, 22 mars 2012 - 04:57 .