271 réponses à ce sujet

[Fruit of the Doom]

Aurvant wrote...

Lanceare wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

The problem with this logic is that Starbrat talks as if this is certain to happen. The continued existence of organic life makes it self-evident that this doomsday scenario has never happened.

It doesn't happen because for billions of years he has been keeping it from happening.

I'd imagine that billions of years ago organic life was almost wiped out by synthetic life, thus his 'solution' of creating this cycle and enforcing some kind of balance. That or he's full of crap.

And thus, the Reapers allied with the only synthetic life-form in the galaxy so that they could make the killing of organics easier so...that...they could keep....the synthetics....from killing organics before they..could...make...synthet----

ERROR ERROR ERROR.

Sounds like you could use a little SPACE MAGIC...  

[Computron2000]

piemanz wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

Avatar231278 wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

CarolSephard wrote...

You can teach the dog instead of killing it ^^

Cant teach an old dog new tricks. Human saying ironically.

Mythbusters proved that wrong. Taught old, uneducated dogs 10 tricks in less than a week.

This.

Any living creature can learn regardless of age unless they have some illness. Its takes a longer time but it will work. Also nothing makes organics work faster than the threat of annihilation. Look at the council in game.

Oh come on, even if most of the people decided to tow the line, the chances that everyone will is zero.

Thing is, is that you do not need everyone on board. Just the vast majority. The said majority will regulate themselves much like how various nations insitute laws to regulate society.

This is what i would have wanted to tell the Reaper god kid. Educate them. Putting them into bottles serves no purpose and reduces the kid's own solution to a scorched earth policy.

I don't have difficulty in understanding where and why the kid is doing this. My main problem among 3 others with the ending is the arrival of a heretofore unknown character mentioned once by the protean VI coming in to solve the entire thing or in the case of ME3, use its god like powers to faciliate the solution of the entire thing. It is really bad writing

[jumpingkaede]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Uh, screencap?

I don't remember if it was a codex entry or what.  There's this:

"The SSV Leipzig was the first Alliance frigate to field-test the Thanix cannon, a compact version of a Reaper weapon developed after the Battle of the Citadel. The Leipzig's captain was so pleased with the results, she gave her unconditional recommendation that the Alliance begin mass-producing the cannon as soon as possible."

It's possible Garrus just says it in a conversation.  But I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that the Turian fleet had the thanix cannons installed.

I know the codex mentions them, but we never actually SEE them being used.  Just normal mass accelerater rounds.

Thanix cannons are obvious due to being giant beams instead of projectiles.

Well that's obvious.  If they showed the fleet actually using the Thanix Cannons they'd have to show the fleet blowing through Reapers.  And then we'd think that the fleet had a legitimate shot of winning; which I always believed.  Maybe not even 50/50.

But if there was even a 10% chance (and I presonally think it was much better than that) wouldn't you expect Shepard to go out fighting on that 10%?

Can you imagine if the Fleet was on the verge of victory anyway and then Shepard pulled his synthesis shenanigans?

"ALRIGHTTT!!  Only a few more Reapers left let's bring it on home boys-- oh fuu I'm a synthetic now wtf."

[Nefelius]

Lanceare wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

The problem with this logic is that Starbrat talks as if this is certain to happen. The continued existence of organic life makes it self-evident that this doomsday scenario has never happened.

It doesn't happen because for billions of years he has been keeping it from happening.

I'd imagine that billions of years ago organic life was almost wiped out by synthetic life, thus his 'solution' of creating this cycle and enforcing some kind of balance. That or he's full of crap.

You can't say "because he prevented that". You can't know that. As far as we, including you, know, based on facts we gathered from ingame, he is just reaping and reaping. Now he says that he is preventing something - but this doesn't make it legit.
And still noone paid attention to the fact: Why Reapers (created) did no rebel against the Starkid (Creator)?

[Hunter_Wolf]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Uh, screencap?

I don't remember if it was a codex entry or what.  There's this:

"The SSV Leipzig was the first Alliance frigate to field-test the Thanix cannon, a compact version of a Reaper weapon developed after the Battle of the Citadel. The Leipzig's captain was so pleased with the results, she gave her unconditional recommendation that the Alliance begin mass-producing the cannon as soon as possible."

It's possible Garrus just says it in a conversation.  But I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that the Turian fleet had the thanix cannons installed.

I know the codex mentions them, but we never actually SEE them being used.  Just normal mass accelerater rounds.

Thanix cannons are obvious due to being giant beams instead of projectiles.

Well that's obvious.  If they showed the fleet actually using the Thanix Cannons they'd have to show the fleet blowing through Reapers.  And then we'd think that the fleet had a legitimate shot of winning; which I always believed.  Maybe not even 50/50.

But if there was even a 10% chance (and I presonally think it was much better than that) wouldn't you expect Shepard to go out fighting on that 10%?

Can you imagine if the Fleet was on the verge of victory anyway and then Shepard pulled his synthesis shenanigans?

"ALRIGHTTT!!  Only a few more Reapers left let's bring it on home boys-- oh fuu I'm a synthetic now wtf."

I think part of the problem is we aren't seeing much of the fleet combat after that brief scene before the Normandy pulls away. So it's likely to be taking place on the sidelines and out of our perception therefore - what happens, doesn't happen, because we didn't see it.

[piemanz]

Computron2000 wrote...

Thing is, is that you do not need everyone on board. Just the vast majority. The said majority will regulate themselves much like how various nations insitute laws to regulate society.

Yea, and it works so well, how many wars are currently being waged right now on this planet alone?

[Fruit of the Doom]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Uh, screencap?

I don't remember if it was a codex entry or what.  There's this:

"The SSV Leipzig was the first Alliance frigate to field-test the Thanix cannon, a compact version of a Reaper weapon developed after the Battle of the Citadel. The Leipzig's captain was so pleased with the results, she gave her unconditional recommendation that the Alliance begin mass-producing the cannon as soon as possible."

It's possible Garrus just says it in a conversation.  But I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that the Turian fleet had the thanix cannons installed.

I know the codex mentions them, but we never actually SEE them being used.  Just normal mass accelerater rounds.

Thanix cannons are obvious due to being giant beams instead of projectiles.

Well that's obvious.  If they showed the fleet actually using the Thanix Cannons they'd have to show the fleet blowing through Reapers.  And then we'd think that the fleet had a legitimate shot of winning; which I always believed.  Maybe not even 50/50.

But if there was even a 10% chance (and I presonally think it was much better than that) wouldn't you expect Shepard to go out fighting on that 10%?

Can you imagine if the Fleet was on the verge of victory anyway and then Shepard pulled his synthesis shenanigans?

"ALRIGHTTT!!  Only a few more Reapers left let's bring it on home boys-- oh fuu I'm a synthetic now wtf."

XD

I would think they would be more annoyed by the supernova heading towards them due to the destruction of the Mass Relay.

Assuming the shockwave wasn't moving at FTL speeds, they would have a good 4-6 hours of waiting.

EDIT:  Oh wait, if it was moving at the speed of light, they wouldn't see it coming. 

So they would get 4-6 hours of celebration before being suddenly annihilated.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 22 mars 2012 - 05:04 .

[RedChannels]

I read somewhere that the original idea was that the use of dark energy/matter in nearly all forms of technology in the Mass Effect universe was giving off radiation which would eventually engulf the galaxy or something like that. The Reapers come every 50,000 years or so to destroy all life to prevent this from happening, and your efforts throughout the first two games were only slowing them down, not stopping them. Which is why the series was called "Mass Effect". At some point after the first game they decided to change it to this synthetic/organic thing, which is why it's not making much sense to many of us. Usually when you change something so big in a story, after the story's already begun, it can cause plotholes/inconsistencies.

[Ultra Prism]

Teach the dog....

[Fruit of the Doom]

RedChannels wrote...

I read somewhere that the original idea was that the use of dark energy/matter in nearly all forms of technology in the Mass Effect universe was giving off radiation which would eventually engulf the galaxy or something like that. The Reapers come every 50,000 years or so to destroy all life to prevent this from happening, and your efforts throughout the first two games were only slowing them down, not stopping them. Which is why the series was called "Mass Effect". At some point after the first game they decided to change it to this synthetic/organic thing, which is why it's not making much sense to many of us. Usually when you change something so big in a story, after the story's already begun, it can cause plotholes/inconsistencies.

I don't know why they needed a stupid "the Reapers are 'good guys' twist"

It was fine just having them as a vastly superior race that harvested us for our genetics, like farmers harvesting wheat, every 50,000 years.  They are even called REAPERS (by organics, at least)

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 22 mars 2012 - 05:08 .

[Zulufoxtrot]

piemanz wrote...

Aurvant wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

It's flawed because it's impossible that a synthetics-organics war of certain species wipes out every being in the galaxy.

Even if the Geth-Quarian war would have gone out as bad as possible, the majority of Quarians would be dead... so what? Geth would continue to live on their home-world and that's it.

That is a good point, even if the Geth wiped out the Quarians the dividing they were subjected to showed disagreement and in the end - they wanted to be left alone. So the Geth kill the Quarians, then what? They simply live on Ronnoc and renounce the old machines like Legion said.

Fast forward a thousand years, the geth are attacked by some random organic race, the Geth come to a concesus that organics are more trouble than they're worth.

That's all it takes.

You're assuming that in a thousand years that an organic race would attack the Geth, and there is no evidence to support that the Geth would actively return to war. In fact, without the Reaper's influence on them, the Geth made it a point to ACTIVELY SEEK PEACE.

You're trying to shoehorn speculation in there to support broken logic.

I'm not saying it will happen, only that it wouldn't take much to make it happen. Not to mention there could be hundreds more AI developed in that time and it only takes one or two  to become scentient and evolve exponentially.

The same logic could be applied to an Organic species that's attacked by an alien entity. They might assume it's safer to just wipe everything out instead of taking the risk that they'd be attacked again. Saying that ONLY synthetics would choose to wipe out all life is at best an illogical conclusion. The story was better when they weren't trying to make the Reapers into some sort of misguided noble intention, and instead it was simple survival and conitnued dominance. They harvest any civilization that reaches the level to where they could threaten their hold on the Galaxy, and use those civilizations to create more of themselves. Then they let the Mass Relays and the CItadel ensure that the next 'crop' grows up properly until it's harvest time. 

[Mclouvins]

Aurvant wrote...

And thus, the Reapers allied with the only synthetic life-form in the galaxy so that they could make the killing of organics easier so...that...they could keep....the synthetics....from killing organics before they..could...make...synthet----

ERROR ERROR ERROR.

That doesn't really measure up, the Geth were used as tools by the Reapers in ME1, and really in ME3, but as Legion said the Geth and probably other synthetics in the past exist outside of their plans and would most likely be eliminated after teh reaping was complete.

The biggest problem though comes from confusing the ends of the Reapers' plan with the means they take. They cause a lot of destruction but the destruction is not their end. The end result that they pursue is the ascension of organic speices as new Reapers in their collective. While that may seem like destruction it's really more transhumanism to the nth degree. There are already some smart people who are very serious about only needing to live long enough so that their conciousness can be uploaded to a computer where they can live forever. Most people think their rather crazy just like most people would reject the idea of the reapers, but the case of the reapers is not one of destruction to prevent destruction it is destruction as a means to the end of preventing greater destruction.

[ImmovableMover]

Naerivar wrote...

ImmovableMover wrote...

It has never happened in the past (obviously) So the Reapers "plan" is based solely on unprecedented speculation. It is literally killing all sentient life just in case they create something which hasn't ever done thing that they are scared it will do. It's like Nuking Denmark just in case they decide to legalize rape - Sure you can go "Hey, It worked didn't it? Denmark didn't legalize rape so it was a 100% effective plan!" but that doesn't make it any less stupid as either a plan or a response.

In this cycle we encounter three separate entities that are unshackled AI - The Reapers, EDI and the Geth, Of those three only one of them has EVER shown ANY hostility towards Organics...The Reapers (and some geth...ones that, surprise surprise, have been corrupted by the reapers); So the Reapers exist to fight a problem the Reapers create. Both EDI and The Geth are peaceful by nature and have demonstrated this numerous times.

So far not only has this problem to which they "Solve" hasn't ever arisen, the only times it has ever come close has been the "Solutions" own doing. But that's not even the tip of the problem

The Reapers HAVE ALREADY FAILED by the time Mass Effect 1 (and their original "Kill everyone" date) comes along - The Geth were created by the quarians hundreds of years prior, So much for preventing the creation of AI! Also, If the Reapers leave non-organics Alone and then kill off the only species capable of fighting them (technologically advanced organics), They're literally paving the way for a hostile AI to kill all other organic life in the galaxy. If they CAN kill non-organic AI, then thats all they should have done all along, that way once the Reapers had helped the Organics win they could go "See what happens when you do that? Don't do that again".

Organics learn, the cycle is ended, The Reapers go back into Dark Space to keep a watchful eye to make sure it doesn't happen again.

But no, they just choose to wipe out the organics, destroying any chance of organics learning anything. Ever.

This "Solution" fails at every conceivable level, it's not only self-creating the problem, it even self-defeats the solution, The very notion that a hyper-advanced intelligence would think this is a good idea is frankly absurd; Moderately intelligent people are finding huge faults with it. Whoever wrote it really ought to be embarrassed.

Ok, first of all, why is it  obvious ?

Secondly, what the reapers would do is nuke Denmark while evacuating all people first (harvesting).

The fact that you find 2 synthetic beings/groups does not mean the Reapers assumption is invalid. It just means that those 2 are exempt. Only if every freakin' synthetic in the universe across all times would not start war with the universe would your point hold.

Also the purpose of the reapers is to prevent mass life extinction, not preventing synthetic life.

So rather than kill them in the blast they take them somewhere else and kill them...What a distinction! It is plain, and evidenced by leaked scripts, that the Harvesting thing used to be relevant, but it no longer is and has been shoe horned in as some Ridiculous "This is how we preserve species, by melting them down and turning them into a brand new Reaper" exposition.

And it is obvious as there is still organic life. Think about it.

Lets say that before the Reapers an AI race DID kill absolutely every organic thing ever, this would be the only way they could justify their paranoia after all, if they truly suceeded then there wouldn't be organic life after that fact would there? No. But I can hear you saying it already "Aha!" you're saying "Life didn't always exist, it can evolve again!", but the first time Life evolved there wasn't a technologically God like race of Organic-Life-Hating machines in control of the galaxy, so surely if Life did spring up again it couldn't possibly get very far along the evolutionary path without a robotic boot stamping it back into oblivion.

And that's literally it, How would life evolve again? Did the machines just up sticks and completely leave? Just one day "I'm sick of this galaxy, lets go to another!"? One unfortunately flawed proposition is that they left to kill organic life elsewhere...but that simply doesn't explain why they'd ALL leave. Any robotic race, or even an organic race given the same motivation, would simply send more of itself out into the universe, not send everything it already has into the universe.

A Robotic race could simply manufacture more of itself and shoot them out towards other galaxies. I mean, they couldn't be so moronic to not see life evolving again if they left the galaxy unattended...so what, are they purposefully playing Whack-a-mole with organic life? Letting it rise up just to kill it for funsies? 

Maybe they ran out of raw materials in this galaxy! Wait...no, thats just plain not true, the galaxy is FULL of raw materials.

No, I think you'll find that there is simply no logical reason, nor evidence, to believe that Organic life has ever been wiped out in the past by a race of Super-robots. The Reapers and the starchild are speculating, nothing more.

And no, their stated purpose is to stop SYNTHETICS killing all life, Not life killing all life, Not natural causes killing all life, But specifically synthetics. The StarChild specifically states that their problem is with the created killing their creators, that "Without [the reapers] synthetics would kill all organics". Watch the scene again if you don't believe me.

And NONE of these details stop the "solution" from being dumb as a plank of wood, I mean really dumb. It is very clear that the writer has had a short of amount of time to make a completely new ending based on the same old context and it simply doesn't work.

Modifié par ImmovableMover, 22 mars 2012 - 05:15 .

[mattp516]

Didn't have time to read all posts, but I agree with OP. The stated goal of the Reapers is to ensure the survival of organic life in general by killing (and "preserving") advanced organic life that has the potential to create synthetics that will kill all organic life. Actually does make sense.

Doesn't make the ending good, but that part at least sort of makes sense.

[Skyblade012]

Mixorz wrote...

They are killing ADVANCED organic races so that those races don't create synthetics that will kill ALL life. 

Now a common question is why they just don't kill synthetics. Well in the long run, that doesn't really solve the problem. What's to stop the organics from creating new ones? They have the knowledge. It would be like if a dog is digging a hole in your yard. You cover up the hole and two days later the dog dug another hole. Now let's say a dog dug a hole and you killed it, now you don't have to worry about a dog digging holes until the neighbors puppy gets big enough to dig an annoying hole.

That does not make it logical to kill your neighbor, and to come back and kill any other neighbor that buys a dog.

Since they have to keep coming back anyway, why don't they just come back any time a new AI species is developed and wipe it out?

[CombustiblePanda]

mattp516 wrote...

Didn't have time to read all posts, but I agree with OP. The stated goal of the Reapers is to ensure the survival of organic life in general by killing (and "preserving") advanced organic life that has the potential to create synthetics that will kill all organic life. Actually does make sense.

Doesn't make the ending good, but that part at least sort of makes sense.

You should probably read this thread a little bit more methinks.

[Magnet_head]

I've been saying this since day one but apparently people aren't intelligent enough to grasp it.

Modifié par Magnet_head, 22 mars 2012 - 05:10 .

[JELLAQTP]

The only way to have new reapers is harvesting organics. So they "reproduce" every 50.000 years (more or less). This circle sounds more like an excuse to "get laid".

[Fruit of the Doom]

JELLAQTP wrote...

The only way to have new reapers is harvesting organics. So they "reproduce" every 50.000 years (more or less). This circle sounds more like an excuse to "get laid".

Harbinger: *puffs a cigarette*  "SO HOW WAS IT FOR YOU, SHEPARD?"

Shepard: "THIS HURTS ME"

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 22 mars 2012 - 05:13 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

Reaper purpose should have been their reproduction as they deem any other races below them, thus their lives expense are inconsequential.

They shouldn't have been another cliche of, "this guy was actually a good guy" phrase.

[Computron2000]

piemanz wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

Thing is, is that you do not need everyone on board. Just the vast majority. The said majority will regulate themselves much like how various nations insitute laws to regulate society.

Yea, and it works so well, how many wars are currently being waged right now on this planet alone?

The difference is that the in game laws i'm talking about are not to prevent wars. Its to prevent synthetics from running out of control as that is the stated reason for the entire Reaper solution. Sure you will have a criminal element attempting to break the law but it will not lead to large scale acceptance because people know the cost.

War doesn't work as an example because wars ignore laws because a law in Country X is not a law in Country Y and even if said laws are agreed internationally, whatever reason for war by one side or both always rides over the international law. Of course the aggressor who has no legitimate reason will always make up one and rationalise the whole thing away but those not involved tend to see though it.

An example i can think of, with respect to a law on synthetics, is murder in a society with law (anarchists need not apply). A murderer not only has the law enforcement after him, but anyone in the society who witnesses the murder will take action.

[Fruit of the Doom]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Reaper purpose should have been their reproduction as they deem any other races below them, thus their lives expense are inconsequential.

They shouldn't have been another cliche of, "this guy was actually a good guy" phrase.

Can you imagine if Darkspawn were suddenly revealed to be the Maker's solution for the problem of mage rights?

"It is inevitable that mages will rebel and kill everyone, so I came up with the Darkspawn to kill everyone first."

[jumpingkaede]

 This may be my biggest problem with the Reapers' motivations, as written, and Shepard's reaction.

Think back to ME1.  Or even ME2.  Let's say Sovereign, instead of being coy and a tease, with his rumbling baritone and his "you cannot comprehend our purpose" sexytalk, says the following to Shepard on Vrmire:

"Left unchecked, organics will create synthetics that will rise up against them and destroy all organic life.  The Geth are an example of what could happen left unchecked.

We are the check.  

We harvest advanced organic life every 50,000 years so that the uprising never occurs.  It is time for humans this cycle but other species, such as the Yarg, will survive into the next cycle."

What does Shepard do?  Call it quits and go home?  Agree that it makes a lot of sense?  Unite with Saren?   Or... I don't know, KILL SAREN BLOW UP SOVEREIGN AND UNITE THE ENTIRE GALAXY TO FIGHT TO THE DEATH.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 22 mars 2012 - 05:16 .

[ImmovableMover]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

JELLAQTP wrote...

The only way to have new reapers is harvesting organics. So they "reproduce" every 50.000 years (more or less). This circle sounds more like an excuse to "get laid".

Harbinger: *puffs a cigarette*  "SO HOW WAS IT FOR YOU, SHEPARD?"

Shepard: "THIS HURTS ME"

HA! Excellent

[Fruit of the Doom]

ImmovableMover wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

JELLAQTP wrote...

The only way to have new reapers is harvesting organics. So they "reproduce" every 50.000 years (more or less). This circle sounds more like an excuse to "get laid".

Harbinger: *puffs a cigarette*  "SO HOW WAS IT FOR YOU, SHEPARD?"

Shepard: "THIS HURTS ME"

HA! Excellent

You know, know that I think about (overanalyze) it... Dragon's Teeth are a bit phallic, no?

The Reapers forcibly impale species through the groin to make more... 9_9

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 22 mars 2012 - 05:18 .