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FORBES AGAIN: Kain just pwned Moriarty : Fans in the Right


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#351
Baronesa

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Ecto-Plasmic Effect wrote...

You can't scold Moriarty for pandering to one side while Kain is doing the same.


There is a difference... Kain attacked us first due to misconceptions and THEN he changed his stance after some research.


1.-  http://www.forbes.co...-on-metacritic/  First article about the protests. (I posted as Andrea Vanness for those interested)

2.-  http://www.forbes.co...-mass-effect-3/  Second article. I posted on it as well.

3.-  http://www.forbes.co...dlc-from-ashes/

4.-  http://www.forbes.co...ess-like-games/

5.-  http://www.forbes.co...lready-on-disc/

6.-  http://www.forbes.co...lc-controversy/

7.-  http://www.forbes.co...er-entitlement/

8.-  http://www.forbes.co...money-for-kids/

9.-  http://www.forbes.co...ible-consumers/

10.-  http://www.forbes.co...ffect-3-ending/

11.-  http://www.forbes.co...blic-relations/

12.-  http://www.forbes.co...ending-sort-of/


Now... Do you see the change of tone from the first article to the others?  How the more he investigated into the situation his stance CHANGED dramatically?

That is what happens when you check for facts, from mocking and being completely against the whole thing, after KNOWING what it was REALLY about, he changed his stance.

#352
Hisilome

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Very good article!!:)

#353
ahandsomeshark

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Rockpopple wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

How many times, from how many different users, in how many different ways, do you have to figure out you're just plain wrong on this before it finally settles in?

Are we allowed to take bets? Because I'm gonna bet $100 on the short-side of thousand times. But we're probably not gonna reach that point, so you're likely to just remain ignorant on this issue forever.

Which is kind of terrifying, when you really think about it.


All I read was "YOU'RE WRONG!". In fact, that's all you've ever said.
Why are we wrong?


If that's all you've read from everything I've written, then - ironically enough - you're doing it wrong.


I understand what you're saying and while I think you're point is valid I also still think it's a cop out for Moriarty (in other news is this dude legit named Moriarity? Is that his first name? If so did his parents want him to grow up to be a criminal mastermind, but I digress)

Now while I agree the circumstances are different and there is an argument to be made there I don't think they're different enough in this instance. Especially since these endings were changed in response to a leak and fan response. So essientially Bioware already conceded a willingness to respond to fan outcry, the difference is they rushed this one and because of that didn't have time to have any testing or anyway of gauging fan opinions.

Along with that if that (though this is less about whether Moriarty has a valid argument in difference) in the case of Cole fans found out about the change due to the companies marketing campaign, where in contrast part of the reason there's so much fan outcry is because it's drastically different from what fans were lead to believe in the marketing campaign. So if anything Moriarty's argument about their being a difference holds less water in my opinion.

But more to the point in the landscape of gaming now is there really even a "post-development" time. When teams are still releasing patches and DLC months, even up to a year, after the game was finished? I mean bioware last week said "the development period for Dragon Age 2 is over (not the exact quote but you get it)". They didn't say the post-development stage was over, they didn't say the second development stage or the development strikes back stage was over. They said the development stage. They have publically stated themselves that they still consider post-release additions as part of the development stage. So until they're officially done adding any content to games they can't turn around and claim it's a different situation because we're not in the development stage anymore. If anything gaming companies opened the pandoras's box when they started profiting off DLC, they can't now turn around and say its only a one way street. (mixed metaphors ftw). And in that same vein companies covering the gaming industry, like ign, should acknowledge that shift and not attempt to revert back to practices years old when it's convienient to their arguments.

#354
Ricvenart

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I so love that article, I want to propose marriage to it and the writer in a polyamorous marriage.
The ending just perfect.

#355
jspiess

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Aznable Char wrote...

bumping for great justice . literally .



#356
FlyingCow371

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Rockpopple wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

I'm saying anyone saying Colin contradicted himself are mistaken. He didn't. I never said I AGREE with Colin's position, and if you can prove I did I'd love for you to do so. I'm saying, his position hasn't changed. The situation with Infamous 2 and Mass Effect 3 are two different things.

I'm not surprised that this gets by people, with the speed these forums look at, but if people actually read what others wrote, it'd clear up a lot of confusion.


Strawman arguments.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Colin said user input was good in Infamous 2, but bad in Mass Effect 3.    Saying the difference is before or after development does not address the position itself.  Game developers can change aspects of the game due to user input.  Saying the difference is time reference is a false dichotomy.


Yeah... I know what a Straw Man is... that was weird how you brought that up, because I never brought up a straw man, I responded directly to someone's question or demand of me.

Ah... yeah... that was odd. 

And I never said the difference is due to development. What the.... where are people getting this? I'm saying demanding a change during development and demanding a change after development are two different things.

Here's a simple analogy that even people in this thread should understand: do you really think Colin would be defending Sucker Punch if Infamous 2 was released with the new stupid-looking Cole McGrath released?


Demanding a change during development vs after development are different, I'll give you that. However, I'd suggest that Mass Effect 3's development is not yet over. As with many current titles, Mass Effect 3 was planned to have several DLC releases after the disc shipped. This DLC content isn't complete yet. Since they're trying to make DLC stuff that doesn't yet exist, I'd say that they're in development right now. Therefore, mass effect 3 is still in development. Thus it's the same situation as with infamous - the developers have a chance to listen to feedback from their fans and use it to shape the content they are currently working on.

#357
The Almighty Ali

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The flak Bioware is getting from some of the gaming sites are completely uncalled for. They aren't ruining the game or their company, quite the opposite.
It's no secret Bioware has had a small bad streak and meny users were kind of pointing at EA or even Bioware themselves, but I think it speaks volumes that they have agreed to do something about a part that so many disliked.

At the end of the day it's not reviewers or people from others companies keeping a company afloat in this bussiness. It's the talent and hard work from those within the company and the support of the fans. And while many have thrown out heated words, they're just words tosses out in passion.

I still support and consider Bioware as one of my favorite developers, if I didn't then I wouldn't have given a damn about this entire ordeal.
I just hope we didn't create a permanent gap between us after this argument.

#358
Blarghonk

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Rockpopple wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

I'm saying anyone saying Colin contradicted himself are mistaken. He didn't. I never said I AGREE with Colin's position, and if you can prove I did I'd love for you to do so. I'm saying, his position hasn't changed. The situation with Infamous 2 and Mass Effect 3 are two different things.

I'm not surprised that this gets by people, with the speed these forums look at, but if people actually read what others wrote, it'd clear up a lot of confusion.


Strawman arguments.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Colin said user input was good in Infamous 2, but bad in Mass Effect 3.    Saying the difference is before or after development does not address the position itself.  Game developers can change aspects of the game due to user input.  Saying the difference is time reference is a false dichotomy.


Yeah... I know what a Straw Man is... that was weird how you brought that up, because I never brought up a straw man, I responded directly to someone's question or demand of me.

Ah... yeah... that was odd. 

And I never said the difference is due to development. What the.... where are people getting this? I'm saying demanding a change during development and demanding a change after development are two different things.

Here's a simple analogy that even people in this thread should understand: do you really think Colin would be defending Sucker Punch if Infamous 2 was released with the new stupid-looking Cole McGrath?


The situation being discussed is about "artistic integrity" and the developers changing it based on fans opinion in general, not when it was changed. So yes that would be a strawman.

#359
shepskisaac

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lol Forbes' writing a new ME3 Endings article basically everyday now

#360
Rockpopple

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ahandsomeshark wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

How many times, from how many different users, in how many different ways, do you have to figure out you're just plain wrong on this before it finally settles in?

Are we allowed to take bets? Because I'm gonna bet $100 on the short-side of thousand times. But we're probably not gonna reach that point, so you're likely to just remain ignorant on this issue forever.

Which is kind of terrifying, when you really think about it.


All I read was "YOU'RE WRONG!". In fact, that's all you've ever said.
Why are we wrong?


If that's all you've read from everything I've written, then - ironically enough - you're doing it wrong.


I understand what you're saying and while I think you're point is valid I also still think it's a cop out for Moriarty (in other news is this dude legit named Moriarity? Is that his first name? If so did his parents want him to grow up to be a criminal mastermind, but I digress)

Now while I agree the circumstances are different and there is an argument to be made there I don't think they're different enough in this instance. Especially since these endings were changed in response to a leak and fan response. So essientially Bioware already conceded a willingness to respond to fan outcry, the difference is they rushed this one and because of that didn't have time to have any testing or anyway of gauging fan opinions.

Along with that if that (though this is less about whether Moriarty has a valid argument in difference) in the case of Cole fans found out about the change due to the companies marketing campaign, where in contrast part of the reason there's so much fan outcry is because it's drastically different from what fans were lead to believe in the marketing campaign. So if anything Moriarty's argument about their being a difference holds less water in my opinion.

But more to the point in the landscape of gaming now is there really even a "post-development" time. When teams are still releasing patches and DLC months, even up to a year, after the game was finished? I mean bioware last week said "the development period for Dragon Age 2 is over (not the exact quote but you get it)". They didn't say the post-development stage was over, they didn't say the second development stage or the development strikes back stage was over. They said the development stage. They have publically stated themselves that they still consider post-release additions as part of the development stage. So until they're officially done adding any content to games they can't turn around and claim it's a different situation because we're not in the development stage anymore. If anything gaming companies opened the pandoras's box when they started profiting off DLC, they can't now turn around and say its only a one way street. (mixed metaphors ftw). And in that same vein companies covering the gaming industry, like ign, should acknowledge that shift and not attempt to revert back to practices years old when it's convienient to their arguments.


Everyone gather 'round, because THIS is how it's done. Here's a clear, reasoned argument against my argument that is actually more than just raging and gnashing of the teeth.

Now look, I disagree, but I see where you're coming from, and I can see your point. You make a lot of good ones, some I really can't argue against. In fact, this is why I think Forbes basically missed the mark with their article. They could have gone into all this and actually start an intelligent discourse about all these issues. Instead they decided to pander at the angry anti-BioWare crowd to get hits. In fact, it's no different from what Colin did, to be honest. And that's sad.

But I gotta give you full cred - no snark - for a well thought-out and reasoned argument. 

#361
The Angry One

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Rockpopple wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

How long before Rockpopple makes a reply that isn't "You're wrong!"?
Takin' all bets!

Edit: Well I don't mind sarcastic ribbing but really some people here are over the top, yes.


Appealing to the audience? Not a good sign, Angry One.


Erm... do you know what appealing to the audience means?
Because I don't think it means what you think it means.

#362
Raanz

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Rockpopple wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Dude, the irony is that the situation WASN'T the same and therefore the principle IS different. 

But don't expect logic to slow down a rage-filled and vengeful audience like you, and the others on this forums. He has other like-minded forum-members, as well as an ego the size of NY, to please after all.


The principle is exactly the same, fans wanting developers to change something they don't like. The end.
You refuse to see this, and resort to insults and raging to hide the fact that you have no point.

You are a disgrace to the Sisko.


You're wrong. Already explained. Not going to go into it again.

You're a disgrace to Commander Shepard. In fact, it's hard to find something you're NOT a disgrace to. 


I wanted to chime in because I'm sorry, but you are wrong.  Changing something during development because of fan pressure is absolutely no different.  If you have a design and an "artistic" vision, you stick with it.  If you change it either before or after release because of fan pressure, it's all the same.
I think you know that, but you probably enjoy playing the devil's advocate...I know I do.  :happy:

The game industry is tough as an artistic medium.  On one hand a lot of art is involved, not only the look and style of a project, but the writing.  On the other hand, as a developer, you want to make money, bottom line.  If you do not make any cash, you don't get the opportunity to start another project.  So it's a delicate balancing act, one I think you are witnessing from Bioware right now.  I honestly think, and I do mean this, that they are genuinely concerned that their fan base seems to be extremely unhappy with something they poured their hearts into..as an artist, I know it would affect me, but let's not kid ourselves...some of it has to do with dollar signs.

#363
ahandsomeshark

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IsaacShep wrote...

lol Forbes' writing a new ME3 Endings article basically everyday now


naw it's just a guest contributor, writing blog posts on forbes website. It's not part of their official coverage.

#364
J717

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Artistic integrity when you throw a "BUY MORE DLC!" window in my face immediately after a garbage ending? Yeah....no. BioWare forfeited any right to that right then and there.

Oh, the massive plot holes and terrible lies pre-release about the ending might have killed that whole integrity notion, too.

And A MILLION KUDOS to Kain....he gets it.

#365
Gibb_Shepard

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Rockpopple wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

I'm saying anyone saying Colin contradicted himself are mistaken. He didn't. I never said I AGREE with Colin's position, and if you can prove I did I'd love for you to do so. I'm saying, his position hasn't changed. The situation with Infamous 2 and Mass Effect 3 are two different things.

I'm not surprised that this gets by people, with the speed these forums look at, but if people actually read what others wrote, it'd clear up a lot of confusion.


Strawman arguments.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Colin said user input was good in Infamous 2, but bad in Mass Effect 3.    Saying the difference is before or after development does not address the position itself.  Game developers can change aspects of the game due to user input.  Saying the difference is time reference is a false dichotomy.


Yeah... I know what a Straw Man is... that was weird how you brought that up, because I never brought up a straw man, I responded directly to someone's question or demand of me.

Ah... yeah... that was odd. 

And I never said the difference is due to development. What the.... where are people getting this? I'm saying demanding a change during development and demanding a change after development are two different things.

Here's a simple analogy that even people in this thread should understand: do you really think Colin would be defending Sucker Punch if Infamous 2 was released with the new stupid-looking Cole McGrath? 

Here's another one. Would Colin be defending BioWare if these endings were released during development? Do we know how he reacted to the previous leaked endings?


They're not analogies. And you still haven't told us what you're actual argument is.

How old are you?

#366
Kilshrek

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Oh what a BURN.

Like I said, should anyone really be too bothered about what IGN says? I think not.

#367
DoctorEss

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Ravennus wrote...

Well done!

I've actually lost all respect for IGN and Gamespot over this situation.

Can anyone recommend any other really good comprehensive game article/review websites?
I've been going to those to since they started, but it's finally dawning on me that their time is over.


You mean you still had respect for Gamepost after the Kane & Lynch debacle?

The one where their site was plastered with ads from the game, and they fired their reviewer that didn't give it a perfect score?

That's pretty much where I lost the last remaining shred I had for them.

#368
Rockpopple

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FlyingCow371 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

I'm saying anyone saying Colin contradicted himself are mistaken. He didn't. I never said I AGREE with Colin's position, and if you can prove I did I'd love for you to do so. I'm saying, his position hasn't changed. The situation with Infamous 2 and Mass Effect 3 are two different things.

I'm not surprised that this gets by people, with the speed these forums look at, but if people actually read what others wrote, it'd clear up a lot of confusion.


Strawman arguments.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Colin said user input was good in Infamous 2, but bad in Mass Effect 3.    Saying the difference is before or after development does not address the position itself.  Game developers can change aspects of the game due to user input.  Saying the difference is time reference is a false dichotomy.


Yeah... I know what a Straw Man is... that was weird how you brought that up, because I never brought up a straw man, I responded directly to someone's question or demand of me.

Ah... yeah... that was odd. 

And I never said the difference is due to development. What the.... where are people getting this? I'm saying demanding a change during development and demanding a change after development are two different things.

Here's a simple analogy that even people in this thread should understand: do you really think Colin would be defending Sucker Punch if Infamous 2 was released with the new stupid-looking Cole McGrath released?


Demanding a change during development vs after development are different, I'll give you that. However, I'd suggest that Mass Effect 3's development is not yet over. As with many current titles, Mass Effect 3 was planned to have several DLC releases after the disc shipped. This DLC content isn't complete yet. Since they're trying to make DLC stuff that doesn't yet exist, I'd say that they're in development right now. Therefore, mass effect 3 is still in development. Thus it's the same situation as with infamous - the developers have a chance to listen to feedback from their fans and use it to shape the content they are currently working on.


Here's another well-reasoned, intelligent counter to my argument.

Now I think whether or not Mass Effect 3's development cycle is over or not due to the presence of DLC is a longer, more difficult question to answer. I don't know the answer to that, and I doubt anyone does. But I think until we do, I still hold on to the belief that Mass Effect 3 is done, and everything we get after the fact is just gravy. The narrative is over, baked in, as it were. So should developers be expected to change a narrative that's baked in, rather than a narrative that's still baking, as it were?

I don't know the answer to that, to be honest. But you bring up a very good point. Not being sarcastic or condescending when I say that. Kudos.

#369
Rickin10

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Come on, guys be fair to Moriarty, his jobs depends on defending EA. He's not even trying to hide it anymore.

#370
alx119

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AW IT IS ONNNNNNNNNN!
No really, well said man. Well said.

#371
FlyingCow371

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The Almighty Ali wrote...

The flak Bioware is getting from some of the gaming sites are completely uncalled for. They aren't ruining the game or their company, quite the opposite.
It's no secret Bioware has had a small bad streak and meny users were kind of pointing at EA or even Bioware themselves, but I think it speaks volumes that they have agreed to do something about a part that so many disliked.

At the end of the day it's not reviewers or people from others companies keeping a company afloat in this bussiness. It's the talent and hard work from those within the company and the support of the fans. And while many have thrown out heated words, they're just words tosses out in passion.

I still support and consider Bioware as one of my favorite developers, if I didn't then I wouldn't have given a damn about this entire ordeal.
I just hope we didn't create a permanent gap between us after this argument.


I believe a lot of us feel something similar. And recent announcements do seem fairly hopeful for an improvement. But we've been burned before by hoping for something from bioware, most recently with the ME3 endings. So we will be careful, and skeptical, until they say something concrete. And even then, there were inconsistencies between pre-release talk about the game from bioware vs. the actual game that we got, so many will still be skeptical until we play whatever they're working on ourselves.

Bioware has definitely been among my favorite studios/developers. How they handle their upcoming ME3 content will determine if I say that Bioware is one of my favorite developers, or if I can only look back on their past games and remember them as a studio that used to be great. If they handle this well, most of these people who are strongly outspoken against their ending will become really solid bioware supporters again.

#372
Leem_0001

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Rockpopple wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

How many times, from how many different users, in how many different ways, do you have to figure out you're just plain wrong on this before it finally settles in?

Are we allowed to take bets? Because I'm gonna bet $100 on the short-side of thousand times. But we're probably not gonna reach that point, so you're likely to just remain ignorant on this issue forever.

Which is kind of terrifying, when you really think about it.


All I read was "YOU'RE WRONG!". In fact, that's all you've ever said.
Why are we wrong?


If that's all you've read from everything I've written, then - ironically enough - you're doing it wrong.


I understand what you're saying and while I think you're point is valid I also still think it's a cop out for Moriarty (in other news is this dude legit named Moriarity? Is that his first name? If so did his parents want him to grow up to be a criminal mastermind, but I digress)

Now while I agree the circumstances are different and there is an argument to be made there I don't think they're different enough in this instance. Especially since these endings were changed in response to a leak and fan response. So essientially Bioware already conceded a willingness to respond to fan outcry, the difference is they rushed this one and because of that didn't have time to have any testing or anyway of gauging fan opinions.

Along with that if that (though this is less about whether Moriarty has a valid argument in difference) in the case of Cole fans found out about the change due to the companies marketing campaign, where in contrast part of the reason there's so much fan outcry is because it's drastically different from what fans were lead to believe in the marketing campaign. So if anything Moriarty's argument about their being a difference holds less water in my opinion.

But more to the point in the landscape of gaming now is there really even a "post-development" time. When teams are still releasing patches and DLC months, even up to a year, after the game was finished? I mean bioware last week said "the development period for Dragon Age 2 is over (not the exact quote but you get it)". They didn't say the post-development stage was over, they didn't say the second development stage or the development strikes back stage was over. They said the development stage. They have publically stated themselves that they still consider post-release additions as part of the development stage. So until they're officially done adding any content to games they can't turn around and claim it's a different situation because we're not in the development stage anymore. If anything gaming companies opened the pandoras's box when they started profiting off DLC, they can't now turn around and say its only a one way street. (mixed metaphors ftw). And in that same vein companies covering the gaming industry, like ign, should acknowledge that shift and not attempt to revert back to practices years old when it's convienient to their arguments.


Everyone gather 'round, because THIS is how it's done. Here's a clear, reasoned argument against my argument that is actually more than just raging and gnashing of the teeth.

Now look, I disagree, but I see where you're coming from, and I can see your point. You make a lot of good ones, some I really can't argue against. In fact, this is why I think Forbes basically missed the mark with their article. They could have gone into all this and actually start an intelligent discourse about all these issues. Instead they decided to pander at the angry anti-BioWare crowd to get hits. In fact, it's no different from what Colin did, to be honest. And that's sad.

But I gotta give you full cred - no snark - for a well thought-out and reasoned argument. 


You know what? Fair point - the Forbes article was done to provoke response. And it could have been done differently to avoid this. The same could be said about Moriarty and his stance, as you say.

I fully agree both of them should be stating things better to help keep this a discussion and not an argument.

#373
chmarr

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Phattee Buttz wrote...

Aside from Starchild, Moriarty may be the most disliked villain to come out of this whole fiasco.



at least Moriarty was a direct equal to sherlock holmes in intilect and cunning.

Moriarty wasent disliked, he was like the antihero at times

but at least Moriarty MAKES SENSE

#374
Wattoes

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I love forbes.

#375
CroGamer002

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Forbes.

I love you.

I non-sexual way, that is. So don't people don't creep out by this comment.