618 réponses à ce sujet

[Exeider]

If I really have to explain to you how changing something during the
development something and going back to change something after the
development process is over and done with are two different things, then
that's really the least of what I'd have to explain to you, isn't it?

If
Colin Moriarty didn't make that clear in his little rant, that's fine,
maybe he should have, but the difference is still there. The change in
circumstance does colour people's perceptions, because that's what
people do.

I wonder: to Kain and you and everyone else that
wants BioWare to change the ending... what would you be thinking if a
lot of people wanted a change an ending YOU actually LIKED?

Would
you STILL be claiming that artistic integrity DOESN'T matter, and that
fans should have a say in what the ending of a narrative is AFTER the
narrative is completed? Or would you change your stance, and suddenly DEFEND artistic integrity, saying that the narrative should remain as shipped?

I'd really, really like to know that. Honestly, I probably only have to wait a few more months to get my answer.

they maybe two different circumstances, but the stance of "Artistic Integrity" is independant of whether the game was still in development or not. the stance Moriarty is taking is that Fan Input on the game, motivating the developer to make changes based on that input betrays artistic integrity.

but when he has praised sucker punch for doing exactly that, regardless of the state of the game at the time, the fact that they did it, and he praised them then, and admonishes bioware now, means is acting hypocrtically.

as far as your second question, the problem is your question is not correct, the people who want a new ending, want new OPTIONS for endings, like bioware promised us there would be. In otherwords the current endings would be in the mix, along with other options. if you want to CHOOSE, the current ending in that new mix, that is you CHOICE, while I would CHOOSE something else, I still would respect the fact that you made your CHOICE, and that i hope you would respect my CHOICE.

notice I capitalized a certain word in my reply, CHOICE, the ME saga is all about it, and having my ability to CHOOSE taken away is what is upsetting people, whether its the endings being hte same, or not being able to argue with the catalyst.

The fact that the people advocating a new ending, is kind of a mis nomer, they don't want to replace one forced conclusion with another, even if it was the happy one, they want the ability to CHOOSE, through their own actions and responses that they made in this entire saga to have an effect and to see those effects.

We did not get that, now i pose the same question to you, If you got an ending that you hated, and made no sense to you, what would you do, would you at least TRY to do something about it, or sit back and take it?

-AE

[Nauks]

Hahaha, brilliant
Forbes strikes at the heart of things yet again.

[Total Biscuit]

pomrink wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

pomrink wrote...

One thing I'm finding odd is people are saying the endings were changed in response to the leak. They weren't. Have any of you seen the leak? It's the ending we have, with some cosmetic differences.

I haven't seen the leak and don't know what that ending was. Out of interest, could you let me know what the changes were?

It didn't have music

Yep, there is **** all difference between the leaked scripts ending and what we got. It didn't say about the Relays blew in all the endings, we assumed it was just destroy that happened in, and it didn't have anything about the Normandy crash, since both those scenes didn't have dialogue to need a script.

 All that stuff about Bioware listening to the complaints and making changes is yet another lie. If they made any changes at all it was to do the opposite of what everyone said, since we hated the endings on paper, and what we got was if anything worse, and more of what we told them we hated.

[Rockpopple]

FlyingCow371 wrote...

I think some of the disagreements among people in favor of..."enhanced" endings vs. keeping them the same is the lack of clarity on what will be or can be changed. I'd most likely agree that the narrative that's..baked in (if I'm understanding your point right)...includes the original 3 colored choices; and I wouldn't want to take those away. Something like implementing the indocrination theory as true would be a very major overhaul, and if it were included on disc would've been a cool/surprising twist. But now, doing something like that feels like it'd be too late and would screw over people who liked the original choices.

For me, I'd just want them to add another option or two up there, in addition to the destroy/synthesize/control paths. I don't believe that sort of change would impact the experience of people who liked the original endings in a negative way. I'd also like to have some slightly interactive dialogue with the kid, but I'm not sure if that sort of addition would upset people who liked the endings as they stand.

And then I'd like some sort of epilogue/explanation for what happened to some things - the races/planets that Shepard made peace/war with, crew, ship, and the army around earth. 'cause with the relay exploding in colored light, which made the normandy crash... it probably would make the galaxy's fleet of ships crash tooo which is depressing. But there may be people who liked having an ending with some confusion/questions raised. Will be tough for bioware to figure this stuff out. It would be a lot easier/simpler for them to say "No, screw you, this is our game. If you don't like it get out.", so we definitely appreciate the effort that they seem to be making (or are talking about considering having a meeting to have a discussion about making an effort? PR stuff is confusing).

Yeah. I was a big Indoctrinationist, but I don't think that's the case simply because it's been far too long. If it was Indoctrination Theory, BioWare would have come out by now to say so. And now, like you say, some people have learned to live with the endings as they are. If they're changed, or if Indoc. proves to be true, they'd feel... well they wouldn't be happy.

I don't think what YOU want in this example is unreasonable. Actually it's pretty much along the lines of what I would like. I think the narrative is baked in, and as such, Starchild, Normandy flying away and Gilligan's Planet... that's all canon now. We can't escape it, nor should we. But that shouldn't stop BioWare from adding more, explaining things.

If Shepard dies after the Synthesis and Control endings, show it clearly. If he's Huskified, have a crew member put a bullet between his eyes and grant him rest. If he survives after the Destroy ending, stop hiding it. What happens to the crew on the Normandy? HOW did the crew get to the Normandy? All this and more can be explained and expanded on, and quite frankly it SHOULD have been in the first place.

The fact that we'll have to pay for clarity makes me upset. But I think people are getting angry over the wrong things. This Forbes article for example shows what people are getting mad at, and I think it's pointless.

BioWare has also been hinting since RELEASE that "something" else is being planned. All this talk of holding on to our saves and being coy on Twitter posts and the like. It was cute at release, but now it's almost 3 weeks in and it looks like BioWare has had no plan whatsoever. That's something to be mad at.

But all this? This whole thread? Pointless waste of energy, on my part and the part of others. We should unify as a single coherent mind.... a nation, of sorts. Independant. Free of all weakness. Then we could have clear message, a clear goal, to send to BioWare. But .... it's not gonna happen.

[pomrink]

Total Biscuit wrote...

pomrink wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

pomrink wrote...

One thing I'm finding odd is people are saying the endings were changed in response to the leak. They weren't. Have any of you seen the leak? It's the ending we have, with some cosmetic differences.

I haven't seen the leak and don't know what that ending was. Out of interest, could you let me know what the changes were?

It didn't have music

Yep, there is **** all difference between the leaked scripts ending and what we got. It didn't say about the Relays blew in all the endings, we assumed it was just destroy that happened in, and it didn't have anything about the Normandy crash, since both those scenes didn't have dialogue to need a script.

 All that stuff about Bioware listening to the complaints and making changes is yet another lie. If they made any changes at all it was to do the opposite of what everyone said, since we hated the endings on paper, and what we got was if anything worse, and more of what we told them we hated.

Yeah only difference is the stuff we'd need visuals for. Those weren't in there.

[Rockpopple]

Exeider wrote...

they maybe two different circumstances, but the stance of "Artistic Integrity" is independant of whether the game was still in development or not. the stance Moriarty is taking is that Fan Input on the game, motivating the developer to make changes based on that input betrays artistic integrity.

but when he has praised sucker punch for doing exactly that, regardless of the state of the game at the time, the fact that they did it, and he praised them then, and admonishes bioware now, means is acting hypocrtically.

as far as your second question, the problem is your question is not correct, the people who want a new ending, want new OPTIONS for endings, like bioware promised us there would be. In otherwords the current endings would be in the mix, along with other options. if you want to CHOOSE, the current ending in that new mix, that is you CHOICE, while I would CHOOSE something else, I still would respect the fact that you made your CHOICE, and that i hope you would respect my CHOICE.

notice I capitalized a certain word in my reply, CHOICE, the ME saga is all about it, and having my ability to CHOOSE taken away is what is upsetting people, whether its the endings being hte same, or not being able to argue with the catalyst.

The fact that the people advocating a new ending, is kind of a mis nomer, they don't want to replace one forced conclusion with another, even if it was the happy one, they want the ability to CHOOSE, through their own actions and responses that they made in this entire saga to have an effect and to see those effects.

We did not get that, now i pose the same question to you, If you got an ending that you hated, and made no sense to you, what would you do, would you at least TRY to do something about it, or sit back and take it?

-AE

BioWare promised that your choices would matter in the end and they do. Your choices throughout the series results in whether the Earth is destroyed, for example. Yeah, the endings have far too many identical aspects to them, but they're not simply copy and paste. Just mostly copy and paste. While I'm not satisfied with the endings, BioWare didn't lie to me. They just didn't happen the way I wanted them to happen. 

So people saying they want their choices to matter either don't realise or don't care that their choices did indeed matter. They just didn't matter enough.

As for your question, I can answer that easily, since I don't like these endings at all. I'd try to do something about it. However, I wouldn't demand that they change their narrative to satisfy me. I'd ask them to clarify, to have it make sense, but I wouldn't demand them to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I wouldn't insult the developers, report them to the FCC, sue them, and try to sabatoge them with review bombs... but that's just me.

[Vhalkyrie]

pomrink wrote...

One thing I'm finding odd is people are saying the endings were changed in response to the leak. They weren't. Have any of you seen the leak? It's the ending we have, with some cosmetic differences.

Is there a link somewhere?  I never saw it.

[pomrink]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

pomrink wrote...

One thing I'm finding odd is people are saying the endings were changed in response to the leak. They weren't. Have any of you seen the leak? It's the ending we have, with some cosmetic differences.

Is there a link somewhere?  I never saw it.

It's gone now, unless someone saved it.

[Avarenda]

Glad to see someone finally call Moriarty on his BS.

[Skypezee]

Avarenda wrote...

Glad to see someone finally call Moriarty on his BS.

Forbes is really on the ball here. But then again they're not some video game journal website, their focus is on business as a whole.

Still, it's awesome to see Forbes really looking at the gaming industry as a whole and not just focusing exclusively on ME3. They're using ME3 as an example, sure, but they're really looking into how this can impact the industry.

[Banelash]

Rockpopple wrote...

Exeider wrote...

they maybe two different circumstances, but the stance of "Artistic Integrity" is independant of whether the game was still in development or not. the stance Moriarty is taking is that Fan Input on the game, motivating the developer to make changes based on that input betrays artistic integrity.

but when he has praised sucker punch for doing exactly that, regardless of the state of the game at the time, the fact that they did it, and he praised them then, and admonishes bioware now, means is acting hypocrtically.

as far as your second question, the problem is your question is not correct, the people who want a new ending, want new OPTIONS for endings, like bioware promised us there would be. In otherwords the current endings would be in the mix, along with other options. if you want to CHOOSE, the current ending in that new mix, that is you CHOICE, while I would CHOOSE something else, I still would respect the fact that you made your CHOICE, and that i hope you would respect my CHOICE.

notice I capitalized a certain word in my reply, CHOICE, the ME saga is all about it, and having my ability to CHOOSE taken away is what is upsetting people, whether its the endings being hte same, or not being able to argue with the catalyst.

The fact that the people advocating a new ending, is kind of a mis nomer, they don't want to replace one forced conclusion with another, even if it was the happy one, they want the ability to CHOOSE, through their own actions and responses that they made in this entire saga to have an effect and to see those effects.

We did not get that, now i pose the same question to you, If you got an ending that you hated, and made no sense to you, what would you do, would you at least TRY to do something about it, or sit back and take it?

-AE

BioWare promised that your choices would matter in the end and they do. Your choices throughout the series results in whether the Earth is destroyed, for example. Yeah, the endings have far too many identical aspects to them, but they're not simply copy and paste. Just mostly copy and paste. While I'm not satisfied with the endings, BioWare didn't lie to me. They just didn't happen the way I wanted them to happen. 

So people saying they want their choices to matter either don't realise or don't care that their choices did indeed matter. They just didn't matter enough.

As for your question, I can answer that easily, since I don't like these endings at all. I'd try to do something about it. However, I wouldn't demand that they change their narrative to satisfy me. I'd ask them to clarify, to have it make sense, but I wouldn't demand them to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I wouldn't insult the developers, report them to the FCC, sue them, and try to sabatoge them with review bombs... but that's just me.

I personally wanted it to be like Mass Effect 2 ending. Whereby your whole final mission showed that all your choices mattered. Could be even as simple as krogan fighting in the background or geth fighting off hacking.

[MastaMike92]

I hate IGN with a passion.

[inb4lock]

Epic win Forbes. +1 internet for the author.

Now i just need an answer as to why Colin is bashing the fans this time. Money or IGNorance?

[Vhalkyrie]

Rockpopple wrote...

But all this? This whole thread? Pointless waste of energy, on my part and the part of others. We should unify as a single coherent mind.... a nation, of sorts. Independant. Free of all weakness. Then we could have clear message, a clear goal, to send to BioWare. But .... it's not gonna happen.

I am not a Reaper.

Which is why I'm ticked at the ending to begin with.

[Kilshrek]

Rockpopple wrote...

But all this? This whole thread? Pointless waste of energy, on my part and the part of others. We should unify as a single coherent mind.... a nation, of sorts. Independant. Free of all weakness. Then we could have clear message, a clear goal, to send to BioWare. But .... it's not gonna happen.

You can't build anything when the supports head out in separate directions.

I tend to not trust smooth talking people, and people like you who can be so reasonable at all times. It's nothing personal against you, it's more a fault of mine. But I would like it if we could all put aside our differences in the community and tell Bioware what we're not happy with, unfortunately that won't happen because I think we all believe in different things.

Some of us believe Bioware is fully in the wrong, and should practically kowtow to the fans, I don't believe in this, but that's the vibe I'm getting from some.

I believe that Bioware has made a mistake, but far from admitting it, they're digging in and sticking their heads in the sand, that they honestly felt the ending was good enough as it was, saddens me deeply. After the incredible endings of both ME 1 and 2, to end ME 3 on such a sour note (for me) has obviously had a significant impact on my enjoyment of the overall experience. Some people argue that the ending is only one component of the game, and they are right to an extent, but the ending is also the most important part of the story. It is meant to show the reader/watcher/player, that their journey was worth it, or at least provide them with a sense of accomplishment. I will speak for myself, I felt no such feeling of accomplishment after ME 3. I just felt hollow, that all my actions up to Earth were in a separate universe, and the only thing that mattered is what happened there and then with the star child. I felt cheated.

Then there are others who feel that Bioware's work is sacrosanct, whether they like the endings or not.

When the ideologies are so different, so fragmented, how will anything unite the community? There is no tower of babel here.

[malra]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

His name is freaking Moriarty. He was born to be a troll.

roflmfao.  score the big win for holmes and watson, eh?

[Deithmarez]

Suddenly have urge to subscribe to Forbes...

[Vhalkyrie]

I won't be giving IGN any link traffic. Impacting their revenue is the only way to get their attention.

[Doc089]

I read that and couldn't help but hear - Roll 212

[Exeider]

Rockpopple wrote...

Exeider wrote...

they maybe two different circumstances, but the stance of "Artistic Integrity" is independant of whether the game was still in development or not. the stance Moriarty is taking is that Fan Input on the game, motivating the developer to make changes based on that input betrays artistic integrity.

but when he has praised sucker punch for doing exactly that, regardless of the state of the game at the time, the fact that they did it, and he praised them then, and admonishes bioware now, means is acting hypocrtically.

as far as your second question, the problem is your question is not correct, the people who want a new ending, want new OPTIONS for endings, like bioware promised us there would be. In otherwords the current endings would be in the mix, along with other options. if you want to CHOOSE, the current ending in that new mix, that is you CHOICE, while I would CHOOSE something else, I still would respect the fact that you made your CHOICE, and that i hope you would respect my CHOICE.

notice I capitalized a certain word in my reply, CHOICE, the ME saga is all about it, and having my ability to CHOOSE taken away is what is upsetting people, whether its the endings being hte same, or not being able to argue with the catalyst.

The fact that the people advocating a new ending, is kind of a mis nomer, they don't want to replace one forced conclusion with another, even if it was the happy one, they want the ability to CHOOSE, through their own actions and responses that they made in this entire saga to have an effect and to see those effects.

We did not get that, now i pose the same question to you, If you got an ending that you hated, and made no sense to you, what would you do, would you at least TRY to do something about it, or sit back and take it?

-AE

BioWare promised that your choices would matter in the end and they do. Your choices throughout the series results in whether the Earth is destroyed, for example. Yeah, the endings have far too many identical aspects to them, but they're not simply copy and paste. Just mostly copy and paste. While I'm not satisfied with the endings, BioWare didn't lie to me. They just didn't happen the way I wanted them to happen. 

So people saying they want their choices to matter either don't realise or don't care that their choices did indeed matter. They just didn't matter enough.

As for your question, I can answer that easily, since I don't like these endings at all. I'd try to do something about it. However, I wouldn't demand that they change their narrative to satisfy me. I'd ask them to clarify, to have it make sense, but I wouldn't demand them to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I wouldn't insult the developers, report them to the FCC, sue them, and try to sabatoge them with review bombs... but that's just me.

thank you for answering my question civilly, i appreciate it.  The methods used may be questionable but they do get attention, its FTC btw.  Mostly copy and paste? its 98% copy and paste, with very subtle differences between each, that is not different endings, thats flavors of the same ending. Your choices only matter until the last 10 minutes, when the ending just takes a "blow it all to hell" approach which negates your choices, and ignores the themes established up to that point in the series.

One of the issues of the ending is because the other 98% of not only THIS game, but the previous two established the concept of Unity, and Fellowship, and that freedom and self determination is what life is about, and that the ending doesnt follow that.

It's not the fan base changing the narritive to fit their own views, its fans wanting the ending to fit the views that the previous games established.

-AE

[Funker Shepard]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

I'm still stunned that Forbes is the main journalistic viewpoint for those unhappy with the ending.

Indeed.

I also believe that the M-920 Cain should be renamed Kain. 

[Kosiji]

Damn. I went to go check on my patients, do some paper work & still come back to some of you going at it with each other?

[dfstone]

That sounds like perfect Bioware...at the last minute lets add in all this other stuff that has nothing do with the other 95% of the game going all the way back to ME1 and then when everyone gets pissed we'll just say "SPECULATE!". It worked for Garrus and Calibrate so who knows maybe they thought it would work for them too.

[ValendianKnight]

Haha, these "artistic integrity" folks don't even have a rock to stand on. What an embarrasment. How can anyone argue this with a straight face when BIOWARE said that the ME series was created as a collaboration between the fans and developers. They have said they listen to feedback. There is evidence for this. You can't compare this to a movie either. Not to mention, plenty of movies add extra scenes and endings for DVD/BR release.

Seriously, logic....this argument has none.

[Makatak]

Ravennus wrote...

Well done!

I've actually lost all respect for IGN and Gamespot over this situation.

Can anyone recommend any other really good comprehensive game article/review websites?
I've been going to those to since they started, but it's finally dawning on me that their time is over.

Is it weird that I'm starting to seriously consider subscribing to Forbes' magazine?

If you haven't yet, look up Zero Punctuation. He's a freelance reviewer (as in, he's not tied to an actual gaming company that I'm aware of), but his snarky reviews are generally spot on with much of the things I agree with. He also champions the idea that you can enjoy something and criticize it at the same time. Much of Yahtzee's criticism (that is, people criticizing his criticism) comes from the idea that he just nitpicks and looks for reasons to hate games; I personally don't feel that's the case. But make your own judgement.