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FORBES AGAIN: Kain just pwned Moriarty : Fans in the Right


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#551
Akrim_Drak

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Anteocitis wrote...

Wildhide wrote...

The sad thing is I doubt Moriarty will ever see the article, he doesn't seem the type from his videos to visit Forbes. And if he happens to, he won't respond to it. The kid doesn't know how to properly discuss or debate, he just trash talks. It's hard to trash talk when you're being shown to talk out of both sides of your mouth.


Oh I am pretty sure that somebody who used to be in the magazine business will point it out to him in person tomorrow.  ¬_¬


He read it. He tweeted this earlier:

"Journalism 101: When you write a story about an individual, you reach out to them for comment, clarification, et cetera."

to which someone responded:

@notaxation "Journalism 101: When you take a stance on something, don't contradict yourself."

#552
Lugaidster

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RiouHotaru wrote...

...And once again, Forbes runs his mouth off without considering WHY it might be a dangerous precedent.

Fallout 3 got Broken Steel because the DEVELOPER didn't like the ending. The "dangerous precedent" is in giving the fans control. Fans should NOT have control over whether any part of a game gets changed or not.

But then it's easy to like the article because it agrees with you.


Yeah, because Bethesda suddenly realized that the ending was bad with no input whatsoever from the community...? In any case, thanks to the magic of public opinion, if you can destroy the credibility of another person, you don't have to address his points. Moriarty's credibility is shaky at best, and this article proves it more. So why take the time to reply his argument? Anyway, I'll indulge.

This is not a precedent. This is merely an example. Every single developer out there presented with a situation like Bioware's now will have 2 difficult choices before them and there's no way to go around it.  

A) Lose the fans, market the hell out of the product at hand to minimize short-term loses and preserve artistic integrity.
B) Cave to the fans, minimize long-term loses and show some artistic humility. (Any artist can stick to his guns claiming artistic integrity but only good artists are humble enough to admit that they might be wrong).

Moreover, this particular situation is enhanced by the fact that most of the customers complaining where the ones that had their expectations set to unrealistic levels by developer comments and 2 very successful games over the course of several years. You put yourself in that spot and the stakes will be high. If anything, regardless of the outcome, it'll be harder in the future to see trilogies as connected as this ones. The damage is already done. Fans already didn't like the ending. That's going to hurt the bottom-line anyway.

This situation will make everyone wary to conclude a trilogy after so much investment from the fans. But that's just human nature, whenever fans get invested in such a work by anyone else, the have a sense of property. Fans have complained with other great works of art in the past. Some artists "caved", showing some humility, while others simply ignored. The fact of the matter is that other developers would love to have such an invested fan-base. They would love to have products that successful. 1 loyal customer is worth 10 casual ones.

This is a chance, an opportunity if you will, for Bioware to try and correct this situation. An opportunity extended by the community, a 1up. Not because we're arrogant, but because we're disappointed. Imagine if we all left suddenly and told our friends that regard us as the fans of the franchise that the game's good but the end is bad. That's disaster right there, and it's already happening. Furthermore, some casual gamers that bought ME3 just now might simply not go back and buy the first two. That's impressively damaging to the company, and that's what this ending achieved. Instead of giving me replay value, it outright destroyed it for THREE games.

Bottom line is, it's always going to be their choice. We can complain all we want, but there's nothing in our power to actually make them change it. Some think that going to a court is a way to achieve it, but they're just desperate (like the guy that went to the FTC). It doesn't matter if one developer "caves" in. There's no contract binding other developers to do so as well, because this is not a court of law. On the other hand, this isn't a hostage situation either, we're not picking on a random guy on the street and demanding outrageous stuff with no reason. Bioware is not going to "die" unless we get what we want, but we won't stay customers just for the sake of it. It is, after all, a business.

Think about those differences and then tell me, how the hell this Moriarty guy is right?

Modifié par Lugaidster, 22 mars 2012 - 11:01 .


#553
Shadow98

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Ah all I can say about that article is "eloquence in its brevity" oh and PWNED

#554
Lugaidster

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Akrim_Drak wrote...

Anteocitis wrote...

Wildhide wrote...

The sad thing is I doubt Moriarty will ever see the article, he doesn't seem the type from his videos to visit Forbes. And if he happens to, he won't respond to it. The kid doesn't know how to properly discuss or debate, he just trash talks. It's hard to trash talk when you're being shown to talk out of both sides of your mouth.


Oh I am pretty sure that somebody who used to be in the magazine business will point it out to him in person tomorrow.  ¬_¬


He read it. He tweeted this earlier:

"Journalism 101: When you write a story about an individual, you reach out to them for comment, clarification, et cetera."

to which someone responded:

@notaxation "Journalism 101: When you take a stance on something, don't contradict yourself."


Hahahahaha, Pwnd right there!

Edit:

In any case, no clarification was needed at all. He simply presented Moriarty's stance by paraphrasing him with the questions and then he quoted another article. The Forbes guy didn't make any kind of appreciation on it and didn't take a stance on Moriarty's inconsequence. The evidence stands for itself as he presented it. No input from Moriarty would've changed that. The guy's just pissed he got picked apart by his own background.

Modifié par Lugaidster, 22 mars 2012 - 11:06 .


#555
Antigone2283

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RiouHotaru wrote...

...And once again, Forbes runs his mouth off without considering WHY it might be a dangerous precedent.

Fallout 3 got Broken Steel because the DEVELOPER didn't like the ending. The "dangerous precedent" is in giving the fans control. Fans should NOT have control over whether any part of a game gets changed or not.

But then it's easy to like the article because it agrees with you.


Or, you know, this is a unique situation. One instance does not a spiral towards catastrophe make.

Also, Forbes is not a person.

#556
Guest_Luc0s_*

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Haha Moriarty got OWNED!

#557
Yuoaman

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Kain didn't need to reach out to Moriarty, it was just presenting the facts - you don't really need input from the person in question for that.

#558
Nighthunteer

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morrie23 wrote...

Woop! Go Forbes!



#559
SimonM72

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Exit stage left Colin / IGN.

Lol !- how embarassing!. Nicely done Forbes!

#560
Myrmedus

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IGN have truly, truly destroyed any semblance of estimation I may have had in them.

This is becoming almost like a campaign for them now, to the extent that they're going from one thought-up argument to the next whenever one is overturned, just for the sake of opposing us.

First it was complaining about us being "entitled". Then it was poking fun by suggesting we wanted an ending where Shepard got a birthday cake from Wrex. Now it's trying to play the "we're just in it for the small games companies" card. The hypocrisy highlighted in that article proves this.

What a load of tosh. IGN don't give two ****s and a slice of cake about the content of their argument, they're just using the next string in their bow.

Idiots. I certainly won't be using their website ever again.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 22 mars 2012 - 11:14 .


#561
Koolgool

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Fruit of the Doom wrote...

His name is freaking Moriarty. He was born to be a troll.

This. xD

I didn't even watch his whole video. It was a lot of him complaining and whining about those of us who've complained and whined. There was nothing professional about it and he clearly didn't do his research on the problem, as he was simply making a lot of generalizations and spouting insults. To me, it sounded like he just heard about the problem, drew a bunch of conclusions, then did a rant on it.

Happy Forbes put him in his place.

Modifié par Koolgool, 22 mars 2012 - 11:16 .


#562
corkey sweet

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Forbs has been siding with the fans from the get go, and i appreciate that

#563
corkey sweet

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Myrmedus wrote...

IGN have truly, truly destroyed any semblance of estimation I may have had in them.

This is becoming almost like a campaign for them now, to the extent that they're going from one thought-up argument to the next whenever one is overturned, just for the sake of opposing us.

First it was complaining about us being "entitled". Then it was poking fun by suggesting we wanted an ending where Shepard got a birthday cake from Wrex. Now it's trying to play the "we're just in it for the small games companies" card. The hypocrisy highlighted in that article proves this.

What a load of tosh. IGN don't give two ****s and a slice of cake about the content of their argument, they're just using the next string in their bow.

Idiots. I certainly won't be using their website ever again.


IGN's own employee is in the game. their opinions have ZERO weight because of that. they should do themselves a favor, and shut up

#564
Koolgool

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IGN's own employee is in the game. their opinions have ZERO weight because of that. they should do themselves a favor, and shut up

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I actually declined her request to join my crew. "The Normandy is a stealth ship" was a nice response to her offer. I kinda forgot about her until I started watching youtube videos.

This whole debacle isn't really going to change how often I visit IGN, though... since I already don't. :B

Modifié par Koolgool, 22 mars 2012 - 11:20 .


#565
Niemack Saarinen

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Wow.. hilarious OP. Shows the hypocrisy of biased journalism, i.e. IGN. I wonder how they'll react to this article. lol. "ITS DIFFERENT, IT WAS JUST CLOTHES" - but they were willing to whine about clothing, we're arguing for a better, promised ending upon stacks of lies we were fed.

#566
Myrmedus

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That's just amazing destruction from Forbes. If I was the IGN writer I would feel unbelievably small and stupid right now.

#567
Myrmedus

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Niemack Saarinen wrote...

Wow.. hilarious OP. Shows the hypocrisy of biased journalism, i.e. IGN. I wonder how they'll react to this article. lol. "ITS DIFFERENT, IT WAS JUST CLOTHES" - but they were willing to whine about clothing, we're arguing for a better, promised ending upon stacks of lies we were fed.


Anyone got any info on how they reacted to the Broken Steel DLC? If they reacted well then they couldn't play the "it was only clothes" card anyway.

#568
calis_riakel

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Rockpopple wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Dude, the irony is that the situation WASN'T the same and therefore the principle IS different. 

But don't expect logic to slow down a rage-filled and vengeful audience like you, and the others on this forums. He has other like-minded forum-members, as well as an ego the size of NY, to please after all.


The principle is exactly the same, fans wanting developers to change something they don't like. The end.
You refuse to see this, and resort to insults and raging to hide the fact that you have no point.

You are a disgrace to the Sisko.


You're wrong. Already explained. Not going to go into it again.

You're a disgrace to Commander Shepard. In fact, it's hard to find something you're NOT a disgrace to. 


Gonna agree with Angry here
prin·ci·ple/ˈprinsəpəl/
Noun:   
  •     A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
  •     A rule or belief governing one's personal behavior.
We're talking about a principle Whether or not art can/should be altered from the original vision/design of the author(s). It's the principle that matters, not the situation in which the principle is applied.

sit·u·a·tion/ˌsiCHo͞oˈāSHən/
Noun:   
  •     A set of circumstances in which one finds oneself; a state of affairs.
  •     The location and surroundings of a place.
Just because one instance took place pre release and another took place post release, the principle of the matter is not invalidated.

Comparing a situation to a principle is...well like apples to oranges.

Also, as others have pointed out, the ending changing due to leaks is a good example of an artistic revision based on reaction.  Fallout 3's Broken Steel changed the ending. Art and video game endings ;) can and do change.

*edit to add: Source was dictionary.com for definitions.

Modifié par calis_riakel, 22 mars 2012 - 11:30 .


#569
yuncas

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MuckrakerElder wrote...

Hey Forbes, Charlie Sheen called, he wants his winning back.

(Don't give it to him, you've earned it)



I like this.

#570
SpideyKnight

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Well done Kain. I winced when they said: "We couldn't find anyone in the IGN offices who wants a new ending." I weep for the diversity of your employees then sir. A team full of robots isn't very interesting.

#571
hawkens982

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Akrim_Drak wrote...

Anteocitis wrote...

Wildhide wrote...

The sad thing is I doubt Moriarty will ever see the article, he doesn't seem the type from his videos to visit Forbes. And if he happens to, he won't respond to it. The kid doesn't know how to properly discuss or debate, he just trash talks. It's hard to trash talk when you're being shown to talk out of both sides of your mouth.


Oh I am pretty sure that somebody who used to be in the magazine business will point it out to him in person tomorrow.  ¬_¬


He read it. He tweeted this earlier:

"Journalism 101: When you write a story about an individual, you reach out to them for comment, clarification, et cetera."

to which someone responded:

@notaxation "Journalism 101: When you take a stance on something, don't contradict yourself."


IGN guy just needs to stop and maybe do a career change.

#572
corkey sweet

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ign is going to be really mad soon, cause we are beating them:devil:

Modifié par corkey sweet, 22 mars 2012 - 11:30 .


#573
Anteocitis

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Lugaidster wrote...

Every single developer out there presented with a situation like Bioware's now will have 2 difficult choices before them and there's no way to go around it.  

A) Lose the fans, market the hell out of the product at hand to minimize short-term loses and preserve artistic integrity.
B) Cave to the fans, minimize long-term loses and show some artistic humility. (Any artist can stick to his guns claiming artistic integrity but only good artists are humble enough to admit that they might be wrong).


meh. Patent nonsense.

"Artistic integrity" counts for nothing if the art is, simply put, BAD.

There is crap art.

You cannot just add the label "art" to something and then proceed on the assumption that because it is "art" it is inviolate and, at the same time, good 'by definition'.

Every developer out there has always been presented with the situation that Bioware is currently in: produce good art and the people will applaud you, produce bad art and the people will deride you.

Critics, on the other hand, will say whatever you want them to, so long as you advertise a lot with them.

If you want a good test of this then wait until the next time you go to the toilet: call it "art" and then see if it stills smells and looks the same afterwards.

I bet you it does. ¬_¬

#574
MrPuschel

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bmp

#575
chairslayer

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Good, it's nice to see IGN get kicked in the teeth. They sure as hell had it coming