618 réponses à ce sujet

[Streambeck]

Rockpopple wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

The Infamous 2 controversy and this controversy are two different things.

Infamous 2 was still in development when fans learned of Cole's new looks and wanted a change.

Comparing that to what happened in ME3 would be as if Infamous 2 shipped with the new-look Cole and then was changed with a patch a month afterwards due to fan outcry. Obviously that wasn't the case.

This should be something "Kain" and this community should realize, but I'm not surprised they don't. Kain is probably lurking around these forums trying to figure out what he can write next to get more hits, and the community that loves Kain for doing it are simply not thinking things through, but are just reacting out of gut instinct.

It's sad and pathetic all around.

IGN said fans do not have the right to dictate "artistic direction".  In his own words, Morarty said why they should.

What you're arguing isn't too different, actually.  Cole changed looks in the sequel due to the developers taking user input.  Therefore if you're saying that is the only right course of action, then Bioware shouldn't release a DLC.  They should release ME4 that addresses all the plothole problems that we have with ME3.

Works for me.

That's not what I'm saying at all and don't put words in my mouth.

I'm saying that comparing what Colin said about Infamous 2 and what he said about ME3 are two different arguments because they arise from two completely different situations. But Kain, the writer for Forbes, didn't bother pointing this out, because he wants his little lemmings to subscribe to the magazine and give them hits. He's using you.

For all we know, BioWare drastically changed the endings because of fan reaction to the leaked endings, in which case, they'd have done exactly what Moriarty said they should do. But expecting them to change the ending after it's all said and done, shipped, the creative development process completed, is a different animal, and really, it's obvious. People who obfuscate this fact are being irresponsible for personal gain.

And again, I'm not surprised this is happening.

I'm sorry, but could you actually clarify in what way these scenarios are fundamentally different? Because you're not.

The new Cole design was already implemented into the game. Whether it was released or not, artists, designers, programmers, they had all personally fashioned this new vision of Cole. Fan outcry led to them changing the design, potential creative passion be damned. The stage of development just seems irrelevant to me.

I really don't think there's any ambiguity to the "artistic integrity" debate. Either you believe the creator is entitled to their artistic vision, or you believe they are subservient to their consumer. I'll genuinely keep an open mind about this, if you can actually explain to me how these two scenarios are fundamentally different just because ME3 is already out, and Infamous 2 wasn't, I'll consider your stance.

Honestly, the only difference I can perceive is that people actually saw the new Cole before the game was released. No one saw the ending of ME3, or understood the circumstances of it.

[Jere85]

I wonder how Colin will reply, he said he would on his twitter account, i cant wait for the spectacle, because somehow he has got to be right, i wonder which way he goes with it, Forbes is lying? I dont care? Its totally different? its been torn out of porportion? i really wonder what he's gonna say.

[nranola]

See, THIS is how you lay the smack down. Good read.

[Coolfaec]

HA HA! I like this human! He understands!

[LancerGirl]

Forbes is holding the line!

[DireCyphre]

From all these recent articles, I think a Forbes subscription is in order...

[Ozzax]

I hope Colin realizes what a pretentious ass he is being with his stance on ME3 endings. An infinitely more credible source than him just sucker punched him in the stomach. (figuratively speaking of course)

[The Angry One]

Jere85 wrote...

I wonder how Colin will reply, he said he would on his twitter account, i cant wait for the spectacle, because somehow he has got to be right, i wonder which way he goes with it, Forbes is lying? I dont care? Its totally different? its been torn out of porportion? i really wonder what he's gonna say.

I'm going with "the situation wasn't exactly the same therefore the principle is different!".
Don't expect logic and his own words to slow down a self-entitled troll like Moriarty, he has sponsors to please after all.

[Rockpopple]

marshkoala wrote...


@Rockpopple 
I don't know I a thing about Infamous 2 and so I can't comment.


What I can say is that I watched the IGN video and it was a raving rant against fans requesting change. It was really offensive to me, being 51 and playing the game, if you're going to disagree you can do so in a civil manner.


That said the Forbes article points out the inconsistencies with Colin's past comments.

Forbes' article doesn't go deep enough. All it does is show a surface so-called contradiction in Colin's past statement without going into how the two circumstances are COMPLETELY different.


But I bolded the real reason behind the love for Forbes and the hate for Moriarty. This is undeniable. It's not about trying to point out "inconsistencies" and "hypocrisy". It's about revenge. Pure and simple.

[blooregard]

I think Forbes is our elcor mounted krogan calvary

[mghjr6]

RedNanaki wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

The Infamous 2 controversy and this controversy are two different things.

Infamous 2 was still in development when fans learned of Cole's new looks and wanted a change.

Comparing that to what happened in ME3 would be as if Infamous 2 shipped with the new-look Cole and then was changed with a patch a month afterwards due to fan outcry. Obviously that wasn't the case.

While I can agree to some extent, it's undeniably sweet-sweet justice being delivered...

On point: If I had know the ending would be this godawful before release I would have complained.

As I recall, before the game released, the leaked script endings had everyone's panties in a bunch. At least, anyone who had read it and believed it. You know BioWare was tense when the game came out because of that, among other things.

Great article.

[spacefiddle]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

I'm still stunned that Forbes is the main journalistic viewpoint for those unhappy with the ending.

It's not so surprising.  Forbes just understands:  it's more about business than some nonsensical notion of art.  Once "art" is up for sale, it becomes product.  Once something becomes a product is becomes subject to the demands of the marketplace.  It's not near the artistic controversy some would wish it to be.  It takes a business publication to put the big picture into perspective. 

If Bioware wants to fall on their sword for their artistic vision, especially if it's an artistic vision that many of the consumers they've attracted don't share, they'll probably find out why the term "starving artist" exists.

Ah, the free air of capitalism.

Well, it's not so much that it isn't art, or that the notion is nonsensical; it's that you've added the parameters of product to it, blended it.  It isn't "pure art" any more, not by a long shot.

The major cognitive dissonance here is that Bioware is trying to sell a product, which BWEA wants to be wildly popular.  But when faced with criticism, they retreated behind a "our artistic integrity stands, and making something that would just be 'popular' violates that."  This is entirely incompatible with itself.

Yes, business must make things that are popular with its customers!  It doesn't mean you can't push the envelope, try new things; hell, the ME series itself shows that.  There's been quite an evolution over 1, 2 and 3 in terms of experimenting with mechanics and systems, models for DLC, even storylines and character interactions, LI options, etc.  Many of these evolutions are a direct result of customer feedback, and others are the dev's own ideas and innovations.

In a way, i feel like if the ending to ME3 was NOT quite so unpopular - if there was less outcry - this would have been addressed faster, and better.  But the sheer scale of the reaction was intimidating, shocking, and probably more than a little depressing to Bioware, and they panicked.

The scale of the story and the waves it made also pushed coverage of the whole thing to sensationalist extremes, since even decent journalists, let's face it, thrive off this stuff.  Colin dashed off his vitriol with an eye towards capitlizing on sensationalism.  He probably didn't even remember his Infamous story (so to speak).  If there wasn't such a large noise to be made over all this, he probably wouldn't have trolled so hard.

He's still a git.

[Alamar2078]

Nice to see some support in terms of Company / Customer instead of "artisic vision" ...

Note: Artistic vision is important but living up to your word / statements is more important.

[Vhalkyrie]

jmarkows wrote...

You know what?  Thanks for bringing this up.  This is another analogy that deserves to be brought up here.

Arthur Conan Doyle was fed up with Sherlocks Holmes, and fully intended "The Final Problem" to be just that.  However, when the Queen herself (and the rest of the SH fans) wrote to him to ask that he please not kill him off, Arthur Conan Doyle continued onwards and retconned the ending, complete with a well-written explanation of how he avoided death at the falls.

I think BW changing the endings is hardly a precendent.

This is a great example.  Doyle wanted to torch and burn Sherlock Holmes.  I think this is the same as what Bioware has done here.  They torched and burned the ending, and they tried to do in a way that is "no way back".

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Phattee Buttz wrote...

Aside from Starchild, Moriarty may be the most disliked villain to come out of this whole fiasco.

sirstikay69 wrote...

In that pseudo hipsters face lol

Agreed.  Forbes knows good business.

[tommythetomcat]

Rockpopple wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

The Infamous 2 controversy and this controversy are two different things.

Infamous 2 was still in development when fans learned of Cole's new looks and wanted a change.

Comparing that to what happened in ME3 would be as if Infamous 2 shipped with the new-look Cole and then was changed with a patch a month afterwards due to fan outcry. Obviously that wasn't the case.

This should be something "Kain" and this community should realize, but I'm not surprised they don't. Kain is probably lurking around these forums trying to figure out what he can write next to get more hits, and the community that loves Kain for doing it are simply not thinking things through, but are just reacting out of gut instinct.

It's sad and pathetic all around.

The developers had a vision in mind for their character, they changed that vision when they realized that fans *hated* the new look.  What arbitrary rule says that once it's released it's unacceptable to listen and incorporate criticism into your work anymore.  Bioware and EA already consider this game to still be a WIP thanks to the wonderful world of DLC.

There's no "abitrary rule". I'm saying the two instances AREN'T comparable! It's a lot easier to make changes before a game is released, early in the development cycle, then after the game is completed and shipped out. People comparing Colin's stance on Infamous 2 and his stance on Mass Effect 3 are ignorant. They're comparing apples and oranges, and I suspect they know it, but they don't care - because it furthers their agenda.

And that's sad.

You mean like how they changed the game after the script was leaked?  Except they didn't go with fan feedback they just decided on something that is arguably worse than what was originally planned.

Modifié par tommythetomcat, 22 mars 2012 - 04:21 .

[vigna]

heh

[Jenaimarre]

I hope this post doesn't get buried, but IIRC, the Command and Conquer series had a similar situation during Red Alert 3's development under the watchful eyes of EA. Remember that many fans DESPISED the design of the Apocalypse tank and the developers proceeded to change it.

Early-game model: http://images1.wikia...alypse_Tank.png

Final design: http://i80.photobuck...ntitled-5-1.jpg

Modifié par Jenaimarre, 22 mars 2012 - 04:21 .

[MB957]

Annie_Dear wrote...

VAIOMANIAC wrote...

After I tweeted him the link the updated his status on twitter be prepared for more bullsh..

https://twitter.com/#!/notaxation

Colin is obviously working very hard in order to land a role in DA3.

lol

DA3

makers breath!

do I get to kill everybody in that one too?

[totalrecall87]

NICE

[Rockpopple]

The Angry One wrote...

Jere85 wrote...

I wonder how Colin will reply, he said he would on his twitter account, i cant wait for the spectacle, because somehow he has got to be right, i wonder which way he goes with it, Forbes is lying? I dont care? Its totally different? its been torn out of porportion? i really wonder what he's gonna say.

I'm going with "the situation wasn't exactly the same therefore the principle is different!".
Don't expect logic and his own words to slow down a self-entitled troll like Moriarty, he has sponsors to please after all.

Dude, the irony is that the situation WASN'T the same and therefore the principle IS different. 

But don't expect logic to slow down a rage-filled and vengeful audience like you, and the others on this forums. He has other like-minded forum-members, as well as an ego the size of NY, to please after all.

[Boceephus]

Jere85 wrote...

I wonder how Colin will reply, he said he would on his twitter account, i cant wait for the spectacle, because somehow he has got to be right, i wonder which way he goes with it, Forbes is lying? I dont care? Its totally different? its been torn out of porportion? i really wonder what he's gonna say.

Colin has drawn the attention of journalists infitely his superior. This hurts him.

[SaladinDheonqar]

That was delicious. There's nothing sweeter than exposing hypocrites. I just wish I could've seen his face when he read the article.

[SavageLycan]

If there was one clear winner in all this hub-ub, it was definitely Forbes. I mean, I never had any impetus to read them before; now that I know they follow video games this closely, I'll need to check them out more often.

Anyway, keep on Holding the Line.