358 réponses à ce sujet

[Reptilian Rob]

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Really, really?

After what you just witnessed you're going to believe they are "master craft writers?"

The same people who wrote a fire in the vacuum of space...

those fires were also in ME1  So, yes. Why not? ^^ Also, please don't try to force us to think your way.  We have our own opinions. We're all fans of ME, so let's wait 'til April for Bioware's announcement.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, just pointing out fallacy where I see it.

With all the twenty to thirty lies we were told about the game, and then were delievered a product contrary to what they promised...

My faith is less than stellar right now. 

I missed the fallacy's you pointed out... The only thing you seem to ever say is equivical to "nuh huh"...

I mispoke, it has less do do with fallacy and more to do with trend. 

Appologies. 

[Myskal1981]

The Divine Avenger wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Ah yes, and then they will be sued to bankruptcy for selling an incomplete product, resulting in a massive fan backlash, severe impact on sales and costs for retailers due to refund processing.

Not 100% true, there are amny loop holes in the legal system take fallout 3 as an example, Fallout 3 changed it's ending so that the hero doesn't die but instead get's knocked uncontious & spends 2 weeks in a coma in the citadel. They could do the same here expand on the ending with the IT rather than change it completely & they would get round the loop holes in the legal system beause they technicly did'nt sell us an incomplete game, the ending is there just not all of it. 

I did not say that they might not release something and I did not say that this something might not be indoc theory. I just want to say that this was not planned by BW or they would admit that they intentionally deceived not only players, but also business partners.

[Ghost of a Messiah]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Really, really?

After what you just witnessed you're going to believe they are "master craft writers?"

The same people who wrote a fire in the vacuum of space...

those fires were also in ME1  So, yes. Why not? ^^ Also, please don't try to force us to think your way.  We have our own opinions. We're all fans of ME, so let's wait 'til April for Bioware's announcement.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, just pointing out fallacy where I see it.

With all the twenty to thirty lies we were told about the game, and then were delievered a product contrary to what they promised...

My faith is less than stellar right now. 

I missed the fallacy's you pointed out... The only thing you seem to ever say is equivical to "nuh huh"...

I mispoke, it has less do do with fallacy and more to do with trend. 

Appologies. 

Then you are forgiven.

[Ghost of a Messiah]

Myskal1981 wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Ah yes, and then they will be sued to bankruptcy for selling an incomplete product, resulting in a massive fan backlash, severe impact on sales and costs for retailers due to refund processing.

Not 100% true, there are amny loop holes in the legal system take fallout 3 as an example, Fallout 3 changed it's ending so that the hero doesn't die but instead get's knocked uncontious & spends 2 weeks in a coma in the citadel. They could do the same here expand on the ending with the IT rather than change it completely & they would get round the loop holes in the legal system beause they technicly did'nt sell us an incomplete game, the ending is there just not all of it. 

I did not say that they might not release something and I did not say that this something might not be indoc theory. I just want to say that this was not planned by BW or they would admit that they intentionally deceived not only players, but also business partners.

Why not? Even more bold to ask a boss like EA for blind faith.

[Vakariaan]

 Yeah, my Shepard never died. She got knocked out from the indirect Harby beam. She wakes up and blows the reapers up. Then Garrus whisks her off to a private island on Virmire where they live out the rest of their days with their adopted baby krogan named Thane (Mordin was taken). T_T <33

[PoseidonOfMeow]

Seriously? Even if u dont have hope that the indoctrination theory is correct it is 100% true. What are the odds that 20+ little hints just so happened to fit perfectly with it? If bioware wasnt intending this then thats like 1 in a billion!

[Ghost of a Messiah]

Don't mistake me Rep Rob. I am zealous about this topic because IT is the only way I can enjoy the series. But if IT turns out to be wrong I have no problem admitting you were right... I'll even post an apology to you as a thread. But until then I believe in Bioware...

[Archer]

Ok i hate the endings myself said that many times in many threads.

But the whole indoctrination theory and the hold the line mantra is starting to get to me

Not trying to troll or offend anyone, i respect everyones rights to their views and opinions but IMHO its starting to sound just a bit too obsesive for my tastes. There seems to be a new Indoctrination Theory is RIGHT topic crop up every hour on the boards lately.

I really think your setting yourselves up for a BIG disapointment guys.

It was all a dream and this is the real ending, personaly would annoy me as much as the existing ending...

But thats just my opinion, no need to go spreading it around

Modifié par eveynameiwantisfekintaken, 22 mars 2012 - 09:13 .

[Ghost of a Messiah]

PoseidonOfMeow wrote...

Seriously? Even if u dont have hope that the indoctrination theory is correct it is 100% true. What are the odds that 20+ little hints just so happened to fit perfectly with it? If bioware wasnt intending this then thats like 1 in a billion!

I'll play devil's advocate agaisnt the 100% true part... But there is way too much evidence to ignore.

[Ghost of a Messiah]

eveynameiwantisfekintaken wrote...

Ok i hate the endings myself said that many times in many threads.

But the whole indoctrination theory and the hold the line mantra is starting to get to me

Not trying to troll or offend anyone, i respect everyones rights to their views and opinions but IMHO its starting to sound just a bit too obsesive for my tastes. There seems to be a new Indoctrination Theory is RIGHT topic crop up every hour on the boards lately.

I really think your setting yourselves up for a BIG disapointment guys.

It was all a dream and this is the real ending, personaly would annoy me as much as the existing ending...

But thats just my opinion, no need to go spreading it around

If IT is dissapointment I face then I do so head on. IT is exciting.

But if I'm right the gratification will be well worth all this.

[The Divine Avenger]

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

KefkaGestahl wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...

Fallout 3 changed it's ending so that the hero doesn't die but instead get's knocked uncontious & spends 2 weeks in a coma in the citadel.

The difference is that Fallout 3's ending was still canon.  You stopped the Enclave and initiated Project Purity, for better or for worse.  The problem with this indoctrination theory is that, if true, it negates the ending entirely.  Say Shepard wakes up - which is only available in one of the three endings and requires you to play multiplayer in order to obtain.  What happens then?  What do people reasonably expect to be the next thing that happens?  The amount of resources that it would take BioWare to continue the story and then put in an entirely new ending is mind-numbing and it wouldn't make sense from a business perspective.  This isn't like Fallout 3 at all.

Who says you wouldn't be able to wake up under the reaper influence and start either convincing your allies the reapers were right all along or just killing them outright?

exactly well said

[ll-Nomad-ll]

I'm...... a believer.

[Ghost of a Messiah]

The Divine Avenger wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

KefkaGestahl wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...

Fallout 3 changed it's ending so that the hero doesn't die but instead get's knocked uncontious & spends 2 weeks in a coma in the citadel.

The difference is that Fallout 3's ending was still canon.  You stopped the Enclave and initiated Project Purity, for better or for worse.  The problem with this indoctrination theory is that, if true, it negates the ending entirely.  Say Shepard wakes up - which is only available in one of the three endings and requires you to play multiplayer in order to obtain.  What happens then?  What do people reasonably expect to be the next thing that happens?  The amount of resources that it would take BioWare to continue the story and then put in an entirely new ending is mind-numbing and it wouldn't make sense from a business perspective.  This isn't like Fallout 3 at all.

Who says you wouldn't be able to wake up under the reaper influence and start either convincing your allies the reapers were right all along or just killing them outright?

exactly well said

Thank you.

That would be the most unique perspective the game could ever offer.

[The Divine Avenger]

Myskal1981 wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Ah yes, and then they will be sued to bankruptcy for selling an incomplete product, resulting in a massive fan backlash, severe impact on sales and costs for retailers due to refund processing.

Not 100% true, there are amny loop holes in the legal system take fallout 3 as an example, Fallout 3 changed it's ending so that the hero doesn't die but instead get's knocked uncontious & spends 2 weeks in a coma in the citadel. They could do the same here expand on the ending with the IT rather than change it completely & they would get round the loop holes in the legal system beause they technicly did'nt sell us an incomplete game, the ending is there just not all of it. 

I did not say that they might not release something and I did not say that this something might not be indoc theory. I just want to say that this was not planned by BW or they would admit that they intentionally deceived not only players, but also business partners.

No I know, my point was that depending on how they play it there are always ways round many things.

[Archer]

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

eveynameiwantisfekintaken wrote...

Ok i hate the endings myself said that many times in many threads.

But the whole indoctrination theory and the hold the line mantra is starting to get to me

Not trying to troll or offend anyone, i respect everyones rights to their views and opinions but IMHO its starting to sound just a bit too obsesive for my tastes. There seems to be a new Indoctrination Theory is RIGHT topic crop up every hour on the boards lately.

I really think your setting yourselves up for a BIG disapointment guys.

It was all a dream and this is the real ending, personaly would annoy me as much as the existing ending...

But thats just my opinion, no need to go spreading it around

If IT is dissapointment I face then I do so head on. IT is exciting.

But if I'm right the gratification will be well worth all this.

If you guys are right im perfectly happy to eat humble pie

[Tj388]

all these theorys are mum as soon as the new ending stuff shows up so snap

[The Divine Avenger]

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

KefkaGestahl wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...

Fallout 3 changed it's ending so that the hero doesn't die but instead get's knocked uncontious & spends 2 weeks in a coma in the citadel.

The difference is that Fallout 3's ending was still canon.  You stopped the Enclave and initiated Project Purity, for better or for worse.  The problem with this indoctrination theory is that, if true, it negates the ending entirely.  Say Shepard wakes up - which is only available in one of the three endings and requires you to play multiplayer in order to obtain.  What happens then?  What do people reasonably expect to be the next thing that happens?  The amount of resources that it would take BioWare to continue the story and then put in an entirely new ending is mind-numbing and it wouldn't make sense from a business perspective.  This isn't like Fallout 3 at all.

Who says you wouldn't be able to wake up under the reaper influence and start either convincing your allies the reapers were right all along or just killing them outright?

exactly well said

Thank you.

That would be the most unique perspective the game could ever offer.

Yes & they could work it many way's If you choose ontrole you can run round killing off the rest of your team & allys then have something happen like killing your LI to make you realise your indoctrinated then have Shep commit suicide like the IM & Saren. That ending could lead to the reapers victory & that be the bad ending. If you choose Synthasis you again end up indoctrinated but have some of your crew survive & have an epic battle with you in controle of them fighting off Shep, then it would anger them enough to want to kick the reapers back to dark space even more than they already wanted to. The synth option could go either way, then with Destroy they could make it so Shep could either sacrifice him/her self in an epic way to save the galaxy from the reapers but also have the destroy ending leading to Shep being able to survive that would keep everyone happy.

[zsavk1]

well said OP

[Robhuzz]

I'm still not sure what to think. For the most part I remain convinced that BioWare planned this whole thing. What with tweets like "If you knew what we were planning you'd think differently about the ending" or "Hold on to your savegames after you finished the game". It all points to there being something AFTER the game ends.

Since Shepard dies in all the endings (despite the breathing scene showing, Shepard dies - Seriously he's not surviving the citadel explosion, the decompression in space, reentry into the atmosphere AND the crash on the ground) and post campaign content has practically been confirmed, that means Shepard survives the current ending. IT might not be the exact story but I feel there are WAY too many points that make no sense but make PERFECT sense when explained with the IT.

The bad writing excuse I am unwilling to accept. There is no way that 99% of the game could be so good, while the final 1% of the game has more plot holes, inconsistencies and vague information that simply doesn't make sense, than all the other 3 games combined. There's just no way...

[Cosmic_Cruton]

Let's put this all into perspective my fellow Bioware people (or Ex-Bioware people... not sure what to call everyone without offending someone at least). We can form fairly intelligent guesses as to where Bioware is going with this, and given some of WRPG history (including Bioware's history) there are definitely some possibilities. It's made me go from indifferent to excited thinking about it though (I'm more of a cup half full type of guy!) .

So, ok, hear me out. I believe in the indoctrination theory, firmly. It's too well explained for it to be false (although I could be wrong). Technically, most of what Casey Hudson has said can be, in a pretty cheeky way, be said to be true. The whole "A, B or C ending" and the "Sixteen different endings" can be attributed to the incredibly minor differences between each option. Sneaky, yes, but I think legally this stands.

Doesn't win the hearts of their fans, but I digress.

Ok, so here are a few things I have noticed in the past, mostly from Bioware with some exceptions:

• They have told us that we might want to keep hold of our saved games - maybe this hints at DLC, but anyone feel this was odd considering they've told us of DLC coming and yet they specifically made a point of this?
• Despite having DLC packs, Dragon Age: Origins had an expansion a few months down the line from it's release date, but the original game still had DLC before that was released still.
• With the above in mind, Bioware and Obsidian, often regarded as Bioware's sister company, often give a hint of up coming expansions in story format, for example, DA:O and Neverwinter Nights 2 ended the main campaign with "but that's another story for another time..." - in Mass Effect 3, the closest we get to this is "Ok, one more story..."
• Mass Effect games ALWAYS have more content to explain what happens after the game (Pinnacle Station was meant to be a prelude to ME2, and Arrival was definitely a prelude to ME3). As this is the last game, you would think this couldn't happen... but maybe Bioware wants us to think that.
• Chris Priestly has told us Bioware are holding back so more people can experience the ending. Let's be fair, if you hadn't finished the game and already Bioware says "EXPANSION"... well, let's not get back into the whole day one DLC cufuffle again.
• Bethesda honoured their fan feedback for the Fallout 3 ending by giving them a new DLC ending.
• Although it was less definitive, Baldur's Gate 2 had an expansion that made the end of the saga come to full fruition.

It's easy at this point to completely write Bioware off, especially as Mass Effect has argueably been their most successful series to date (even past KOTOR or Baldur's Gate), but Bioware have rarely left us hanging. Some may argue Dragon Age 2 did, but let's be fair, it was the opposite there, most of the game was a confusing blur but the end was pretty conclusive.

If you're still worried about the ending, I implore you to HOLD THE LINE a little bit longer. A friend of mine once told me "assumption is the mother of all **** ups" and people are assuming a lot of Bioware's behalf (much like they apparently assumed we'd love the ending). Hold the line, stay positive, hear what Bioware's final words on the matter are but regardless, put it in the back of your minds for now, there's plenty of other great things out there

Also, before someone brings up me being hypocritical by posting all that up there and asking people to put it in the back of their minds for a bit, I would just like to say that I'm not nearly as upset about the endings as most people, but being abusive and slanderous for the sake of it will not help either side.

Hold the line!

[Myskal1981]

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

Why not? Even more bold to ask a boss like EA for blind faith.

Really, EA? The same EA 90% of the community thinks are money sucking a**holes? Blind faith in what? That this gamble is going to result in more sales? Because exactly the contrary is happening and even if you release a DLC you cannot guarantee that you will ever see the money you are loosing now due to missing sales and refunds.
Do you think that Bioware/EA are the only ones making profit on sold ME3 copies and are the only ones losing money in unsold ME3 copies? The answer is no. You are implying that Bioware either fooled their business partners like Amazon or that all those business partners are participating in the indoctrination theory. That does not sound a bit probable.

Yes, there are hints supporting the indoctrination theory, I will give you that, hints. But you know, each of the hints can be interpreted in a different way. Let's play a bit:

Gun with unlimited ammo:
You say indoc theory.
I say gameplay mechanics and bad writing.

Oily figures:
You say indoc theory.
I say fancy graphics to give a scary vibe.

Torn armor at the end:
You say indoc theory.
I say bad cinematics, similar to seeing the Avenger rifle in cinematics, when noone equips it.

Senseless endings:
You say indoc theory.
I simply say bad writing.

We can play this all night long, none is evidence, only hints that can be interpreted either way.
All boils down to you not wanting to believe that Bioware would screw up so badly and me saying that essentially it is possible.

The difference between the two "theories" (bad writing vs. indoctrination theory) is that in order for indoctrination theory to work you are implying that Bioware intended it that way thus saying that not only Shepard got indoctrinated in game, but we players got indoctrinated outside the game hence in real life.
Problem is that there are no hints in the real world that corroborate indoctrination theory while there are dozens of hints corroborating the bad writing theory.

And in my opinion, real life hints trump game hints any day.

That does not mean that Bioware will not take on the indoctrination theory to "save" the endings. It is possible, but it was not planned all along.

[Trishot]

This is optimistic. Granted, it has some merits, but it's mostly optimism.

That being said, the message conveyed in the end of your post is one I fully support, hold the line, but not with anger.

[KaeserZen]

Trishot wrote...

This is optimistic. Granted, it has some merits, but it's mostly optimism.

That being said, the message conveyed in the end of your post is one I fully support, hold the line, but not with anger.

Optimism is very important these days, besides, doesn't this theory and its drivers make sense, and is more intellectually appealing than an explanation based on lack of thoughts in writing ? Which would be surprising for BioWare

[Trishot]

KaeserZen wrote...

Trishot wrote...

This is optimistic. Granted, it has some merits, but it's mostly optimism.

That being said, the message conveyed in the end of your post is one I fully support, hold the line, but not with anger.

Optimism is very important these days, besides, doesn't this theory and its drivers make sense, and is more intellectually appealing than an explanation based on lack of thoughts in writing ? Which would be surprising for BioWare

The theory in question as I mentioned before has its merits. As for hope, yes, that's a very valueable commodity for the people holding the line.

Also, for the record, I am with you on the indoc. theory, that doesn't take away the fact its optimistic speculation

[KaeserZen]

Trishot wrote...

The theory in question as I mentioned before has its merits. As for hope, yes, that's a very valueable commodity for the people holding the line.

Also, for the record, I am with you on the indoc. theory, that doesn't take away the fact its optimistic speculation

I think that this is an understatement. For the moment, I feel this is the most elegant way out that was either intended by BioWare in the beginning (that I strongly beleive, as mentionned in my OP), either which is gladly provided and accepted by many fans.